BREAKING — President Obama Will Announce Today Complete Drawdown of US Troops in Iraq

[unclaimedblessing]

The healthiness of Turkeys democracy is questionable at best, not only are more fundamentalists gaining power, but just ask any Armenian or Kurdish citizens.

Afghanistan and Pakistan are and always have been very tribal with centuries old blood feuds.

Sunni/Shia conflicts also plague Iraq and the Gulf States.

My point was that the presence of Wester powers in the region is not going to change any of that.

 

[Jack Springer]

Without us us having been there, both Iran and Iraq would be healthy democracies after the fashion of Turkey. It was our smashing of their aspirations that sent them back to tribalism.

I'm not sure what would make you think this.

If you remember at the time that democracy was being introduced into Iraq most opponents to that plan were saying that "those people" didn't have it in their genes or history to accept anything like democracy. It just wouldn't work.

Living in peace sometimes takes war or a country willing to carry a big stick with the threat of war.

I agree with unclaimedblessing about Turkey. They are under great pressure from Muslim fundamentalists to change their system of government away from a representative democracy.

 

[Kulindahr]

I'm not sure what would make you think this.

If you remember at the time that democracy was being introduced into Iraq most opponents to that plan were saying that "those people" didn't have it in their genes or history to accept anything like democracy. It just wouldn't work.

Living in peace sometimes takes war or a country willing to carry a big stick with the threat of war.

I agree with unclaimedblessing about Turkey. They are under great pressure from Muslim fundamentalists to change their system of government away from a representative democracy.

I don't think either of us were born when democracy was coming to Iran and Iraq, so "if you remember" seems a bit of a stretch.

One reason it's so ridiculous that we're trying to impose democracy on Iraq is we're the ones who smashed it in the region in the first place.
Well, with the help of the British.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

Basically it was the British and French who after guaranteeing Arab independence for their support during WW1, drew arbitrary borders and colonized the area.

The borders never considered the wishes or needs of the native populations.

Turkish, Farsi and Arabic aren't even in the same language families.

I wouldn't be surprised if the region became the next Yugoslavia (Balkanization).

A Western presence would only be an expensive (in lives and money) bandage approach.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Yes. At the very least we should have let the Kurds have their own space.

 

[rareboy]

the military-industrial complex marches on.

instead of the troops coming home for Christmas, it seems like they'll be redeployed about 5' to the left.

U.S. Planning Troop Buildup in Gulf After Exit From Iraq

What did you all think was going to happen?

The US can't bring all the troops home. There's nothing to occupy them.

You're all stuck with paying them to sit in the Gulf doing nothing until the MI complex can figure out how to get their boots into Iran.

 

[JayHawk]

There was a wink and a nod between all the Iraqi national leaders, to include parliamentary members, and certainly U.S. officials, to include our military officials, that once the [U.S.] election was over with, the Iraqis would be prepared to renegotiate the Status of Forces agreement, which would permit then our forces to stay somewhat indefinitely."

Keane said influence, not security, was the goal. "We wanted to continue to strengthen Iraq's democracy ... to continue to grow and develop the Iraqi security forces," he said. And another concern was the influence of the Iranians. "When we have stayed post-conflict in the past, in our history — Germany, Japan, Korea to name some — it is a stabilizing influence. ... When we have moved out rapidly — Vietnam, Somalia, Haiti — things have a tendency to fall apart.

I have said repeatedly that this would be a huge mistake. That any President would be forced to stay but now it seems this President is making a deal that he can shore up his liberal base by holding to a campaign promise even if it results in a massively destabilized region of earth that we will now shed blood again to restore.

This is a mistake of epic proportions made for a campaign reasons vice national security reasons.

THIS will come back to haunt POTUS Obama in his second term.

Finally to the semi witted who touted that Iraq had no tie to AQI or terrorism obviously you make good parrots but bad thinkers. Enjoy your shit pie.

AAI is an organization that defies easy caricature. Its presence in northern Iraq was originally cited by the Bush administration in the run-up to the Iraq War. Contrary to widely-held belief, there were ties between AAI and Saddam's regime. For example, the 9/11 Commission found: "In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help [Kurdish extremists] re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy."

This was somewhat of an understatement, considering the publicly available record. Putting aside the question of AAI's ties to Saddam's fallen regime, the evidence shows the group has been willing to cooperate with other bad actors in the region. This includes Iran, which despite AAI's targeting of Shiites (the Persians have little compunction about killing Arab Shiites in Iraq) has reportedly provided AAI with broad-based assistance. Kurdish officials routinely complain about AAI members being allowed to cross over from Iran into Iraq.

Of course it goes without saying IF the region is destabilized AND the Iraqi government ask for assistance maintaining it's sovereignty against an overwhelming Iranian force then the hawks get what they were after in the first place. Direct with Iran reasons to take out the massive military power being developed in that country. And of course avenge all of the as of yet unpunished killing of Americans that occurred at the hands of the Iranians during the Iraqi war.

SO if the region ask for help against an overwhelming bully in Iran then isnt it incumbent on the coalition forces PLUS the other western powers to intervene? I mean they have already shown their teeth against oppressive regimes.

SO partisan bid to maintain the office or shrewd move to gain the objective?

 

[Ambrocious]

What did you all think was going to happen?

The US can't bring all the troops home. There's nothing to occupy them.

You're all stuck with paying them to sit in the Gulf doing nothing until the MI complex can figure out how to get their boots into Iran.

And this is the truth too. Iran is a large goal for the military industrial complex. Hell, a documentary made back in 2006 explains WHY these wars keep raging on. That's called TerrorStorm, great video explaining why the wars are important to the 1% scum.


These, although a bit older, explains what the hell is happening:


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrXgLhkv21Y"]TerrorStorm[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-CrNlilZho&feature=relmfu"]ENDGAME: Blueprint For Global Enslavement[/ame]

 

[JB3]

And this is the truth too. Iran is a large goal for the military industrial complex. Hell, a documentary made back in 2006 explains WHY these wars keep raging on. That's called TerrorStorm, great video explaining why the wars are important to the 1% scum.


These, although a bit older, explains what the hell is happening:

Or, instead of that nonsense, the government preferred not to dump tens of thousands of soldiers from Iraq into an already full unemployed class.

 

[unclaimedblessing]

I disagree with the quote reference to Vietnam, Haiti & Somalia.

At the time, the public was fed the justification for being in Vietnam was "The Domino Theory" (if we didn't defend Vietnam all the neighboring countries would be swallowed up". Today Vietnam is a US trading partner and somehow, Thailand, the Phillipines, Indonesia , Malayasia etc have retained their independence after our withdrawal from Saigon.

Haiti has been ruled by greedy despots since its' inception. It's the poorest country in our hemisphere and yet little of the outside financial assistance filters down to the needy. Should we appoint their next dictator?

We never had a large and controlling presence in Somalia.
Like the Middle East, the former colonial powers (UK, France and Italy) departed prior to preparation for stable self government. The African Union should have responsibilty for any necessary intervention there.