Can Cephalopod feel the pain?

[JPGhost]

I’m just not sure that a predator in the wild disregarding the suffering of its prey is all that relevant when humans have the capacity to empathise with a creature in pain.

Overlooking the fact that we consider many acts within nature to be morally reprehensible when performed by humans (interspecies sex, rape, murder, cannibalism), what’s depicted in the video is a controlled environment. This man isn’t using desperate means to catch his prey in order to survive, it’s laid out right in front of him and he has the intellectual capacity to kill it efficiently without causing any undue pain.

Whether or not this squid can actually feel that pain I honestly don’t know; the anatomy of this creature is an absolute mystery to me. What I can say though is that just because a brutal act occurs in the animal kingdom does not mean we have license to replicate it in the kitchen.

I wasn't came from culture that allow to eat something alive- I think mostly shaped due to religion. Most western countries are more emotional anyways, it shown on the map: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/08/emotional-map2.jpg
This horrible sight personally won't make me vegetarian like some extreme people and I might still eating out in the same spot of japanese/korean food vendor with this food preparation, only...to ask the chef to killed them thoroughly before these animals presented on my plate.

 

[freefall]

Have you ever had a dog with an electric fence?

When my neighbor's dog would get shocked, he wouldn't come outside for days at a time.

Not sure it takes all that much intelligence to avoid painful objects.

It is believed that vertebrates (fishes, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and mammals) are capable of perceiving pain as they have brains like humans. This is however not the case with invertebrates and lower animals, since they possess primitive nerve-like structure which is not very alike to a modern brain system.

All living beings can feel and react toward harmful stimuli. The question is whether they feel it as 'pain' or something else.

 

[Anders123]

Yes, but as the squid has no expectation of civil treatment, is its quality of pain different than our own?

I suspect it is, and that the squid is on friendlier terms with the brutal acts of the animal kingdom than we are.

I'm not endorsing bloody rampage, and I absolutely think we ought to use whatever inadequate remedies civilization offers to sustain a kinder world. But I don't think it's fair to lift us wholly out of the realm of beasts either.

It's natural for us to kill, and civil of us to try to do so humanely.

It seems dubious in an ethical sense to suggest that a creature not having an expectation of civility somehow makes it undeserving of civil treatment. The supposition that the quality of pain is merely different does not negate the existence of said pain, and the prevalence of brutal death within the animal kingdom has no bearing on this man and his chopping board.

What would be lost if he were to kill the squid quickly before slicing it? The 'novelty' of watching it squirm as he worked? There's just no justifiable reason for the death to be slow and painful when he has the capacity to make it quick and painless. I mean, it's not as if the squid is going to taste any different either way.

 

[Alnitak]

It is believed that vertebrates (fishes, reptiles, amphibians, birds, and mammals) are capable of perceiving pain as they have brains like humans. This is however not the case with invertebrates and lower animals, since they possess primitive nerve-like structure which is not very alike to a modern brain system.

All living beings can feel and react toward harmful stimuli. The question is whether they feel it as 'pain' or something else.

Generally true, but octopi stand out among non-chordates as a curiously intelligent exception.

The brain evolved long before chordates, and the octopus brain is an example of convergent evolution.

 

[Telstra]

Anything that can run away feels fear and pain.

 

[njcollegekid]

Generally true, but octopi stand out among non-chordates as a curiously intelligent exception.

The brain evolved long before chordates, and the octopus brain is an example of convergent evolution.

i agree with alnitak.
additionally, you do not NEED a true brain to perceive damage (and thats really what pain is - the perception of harm). any arrangement of neurons is plenty for what is likely the most primitive of the senses.
and many creatures respond to damage without even having neurons. i already mentioned how when a coral is damaged (lets say a branch is broken off for captive propagation) every polyp along the coral will immediately withdraw. a signal is sent along the entire organism that something is hurting it. plants too. tobacco is particularly interesting. if bit into by an insect, it will detect specifically what kind of insect is damaging it, and release pheromones to summon that insects predators. so even that plant can perceive damage.

 

[Pcp3t3]

Aren't squids able to regenerate limbs?

 

[palbert]

I'll check with Telly.

 

[Just_Believe18]

It's a sad way to kill and eat something. It's disturbing to see a group of people laughing and forcing down an octopus as they grill it alive and pull open its brains. By all means eat it, but don't torture it to death. I think the squid is okay because it's likely dead from shock long before its nerves stop twitching.

 

[Alnitak]

It's a sad way to kill and eat something. It's disturbing to see a group of people laughing and forcing down an octopus as they grill it alive and pull open its brains. By all means eat it, but don't torture it to death. I think the squid is okay because it's likely dead from shock long before its nerves stop twitching.

The ganglion in the legs are semi-independent of the brain, but yeah it looks like torture to me.

 

[guyfromNY]

Anyone who can chop up or set fire to a living thing deserves a bullet between their eyes. That is simply my reaction and I stand by it. To whomever said that vegetarians are extreme, that's not true. We are simply not hypocrites. I wouldn't eat a dog any more than I would eat a cow because I can't make a dsitinction between animals that are pets and animals that people brutally kill and eat.

 

[zoltanspawn]

It seems dubious in an ethical sense to suggest that a creature not having an expectation of civility somehow makes it undeserving of civil treatment. The supposition that the quality of pain is merely different does not negate the existence of said pain, and the prevalence of brutal death within the animal kingdom has no bearing on this man and his chopping board.

What would be lost if he were to kill the squid quickly before slicing it? The 'novelty' of watching it squirm as he worked? There's just no justifiable reason for the death to be slow and painful when he has the capacity to make it quick and painless. I mean, it's not as if the squid is going to taste any different either way.

I didn't suggest that a creature lacking an expectation of civility makes it undeserving of civil treatment. I only said that this lack of expectation qualifies the nature of its pain. When we humans are wounded, you could say we are wounded twice. Once, by the physical experience of pain; and twice, by our awareness that such pain is somehow unjust. This difference, of course, does not negate the significance of a beast's pain, but it does make it very different than our own. I am content with the notion that (most) animals suffer much less from pain than we do, because they only suffer once.

I disagree entirely that the brutal nature of the animal kingdom has no bearing on the chopping up of the squid. This is an event which takes place not wholly within some abstract and artificial sphere of "civilization" but is instead also directly governed by our own real animal natures. We are aware of the imperative of humane treatment, but we are also kin to sharks, who daily rampage mindlessly through a bloody sea of tortured cephalopods. To pretend that the plain nature of the natural world is entirely irrelvant to our conduct is to make an especially partial account of the factors at play. In fact, I think there may be even more to be said about remembering, in an important way, what the real nature of our own animal being is.

And, just from a personal cooking point of view, there are good reasons to think the squid may in fact taste different, prepared either way. And though I'm aware of them, I don't defend them.

The squid ought to be killed quickly before more chopping.

 

[umjreon88]

Bloody hell the squid sashimi makes me wanna visit Japan for the deliciously fresh seafood! OMG!

 

[Alnitak]

Anyone who can chop up or set fire to a living thing deserves a bullet between their eyes. That is simply my reaction and I stand by it. To whomever said that vegetarians are extreme, that's not true. We are simply not hypocrites. I wouldn't eat a dog any more than I would eat a cow because I can't make a dsitinction between animals that are pets and animals that people brutally kill and eat.

Death by firing squad for animal cruelty?

That's not extreme?

 

[guyfromNY]

Death by firing squad for animal cruelty?

That's not extreme?

I think it would be far more pleasent than what the octopus went through. What I meant in the other post is that being a vegetarian is not really anything particularly extreme or unusual. It's just an ethical choice..

 

[njcollegekid]

Anyone who can chop up or set fire to a living thing deserves a bullet between their eyes. That is simply my reaction and I stand by it. To whomever said that vegetarians are extreme, that's not true. We are simply not hypocrites. I wouldn't eat a dog any more than I would eat a cow because I can't make a dsitinction between animals that are pets and animals that people brutally kill and eat.

but you differentiate between killing and eating plants and killing and eating animals.
why do animals get the special treatment?
all living things try to keep on living just the same.

we evolved as omnivores. its no more immoral for me to eat salmon than for a grizzly to do so. its natural.
torture however is not needed nor acceptable. it takes massive justification to get a protocol for laboratory work where animals will be allowed to die without any form of pain relief, so if its not ok for most scientific research, its not ok for slaughter.

 

[guyfromNY]

I won't get into the whole matter of eating plants vs. eating animals because it's just too silly to argue about. I can understand your comparisons dejavudoo, but the fact remains that grilling a live octopus is sadistic and cruel in my opinion and I am not too politically correct to say that I don't have an ounce of respect for the cultures that engage in it. It's the same way I will call the people from Spain who torture bulls a group of scumbags.... The same way that I call the people that practice the religion of santeria and sacrifice animals nothing but freaks..

With regard to people having pets and then not having a problem with killing other animals, I simply cannot make that ok or acceptable in my own mind... I get that some people can see a difference, I simply don't...

 

[xbuzzerx]

I won't get into the whole matter of eating plants vs. eating animals because it's just too silly to argue about.

Is it?

That's your opinion, based on your personal and your cultural values and upbringing and influences.

Other people would say exactly the same thing about having an argument about food animal vs. human suffering.

 

[youfiad]

Ouch. That's fucked up.

 

[freefall]

i agree with alnitak.
additionally, you do not NEED a true brain to perceive damage (and thats really what pain is - the perception of harm). any arrangement of neurons is plenty for what is likely the most primitive of the senses.
and many creatures respond to damage without even having neurons. i already mentioned how when a coral is damaged (lets say a branch is broken off for captive propagation) every polyp along the coral will immediately withdraw. a signal is sent along the entire organism that something is hurting it. plants too. tobacco is particularly interesting. if bit into by an insect, it will detect specifically what kind of insect is damaging it, and release pheromones to summon that insects predators. so even that plant can perceive damage.

I don't say animals cannot perceive damage or harm. They can. However, whether it is perceived as pain is to be elucidated.

How do we know it's pain? Because we feel it. Pain is a subjective feeling which differs even between us humans, without numerous objective outputs such as reactions, pain avoiding reflexes, and increased vital signs (heartbeat, respiration rate, etc). However, this all however is difficult to observe in lower animals, thus it's difficult to assess pain in invertebrates since we don't know what they exactly feel. We only know some stimuli are perceived harmful and are avoided, but we have no idea what they are felt as.