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Can we talk about crime and punishment?

  • Thread starter Thread starter peeonme
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peeonme

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In a place that I consider to be my home town a terrible crime happened. A 15 year old shot up his school, 4 students were murdered. The boy was sentenced to life with no parole. His parents were convicted of 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

I think that the verdicts were well deserved. That being said, in my opinion being incarcerated for life or a period of time is the punishment, not living in fear of violence, death or rape. Being surrounded by criminals goes with the territory, but we as a civilized people should take no pleasure when an inmate is harmed by other inmates.

I have heard some say that sex offenders need to locked up with larger inmates that will "use" them (to put it in a polite way). The boy I referred to was beaten up in the place where he is currently held and a person remarked that he "had it coming". It seems fitting that this boy would never get another chance to harm others, but can we have some compassion on a neglected 15 year old that seems to be mentally ill?
 
The American "justice" system is in no way, shape, or form interested in justice or rehabilitation. It's based purely on vengeance. We're the only developed country that still has the death penalty, let alone executes people with developmental disabilities. We continue to use solitary confinement even though it's been declared a human rights violation. We have no qualms about throwing children into adult prisons, especially if they're Black or brown. This country is truly fucked up.
 
In a place that I consider to be my home town a terrible crime happened. A 15 year old shot up his school, 4 students were murdered. The boy was sentenced to life with no parole. His parents were convicted of 4 counts of involuntary manslaughter.

I think that the verdicts were well deserved.
Isn't it sad, that when the parents were called to the school out of serious concern from their son's behavior, that they didn't even take him home that day as a time-out, as a chance to evaluate or get counseling, or to initiate discipline of their own? Even after teaching in some pretty dreary high schools, I find that behavior to be exceptionally rare, so also agree with you that their sentences were well-deserved. They didn't merely miss the danger, they actively denied it, with dire costs as a result. And it most certainly appears to have stemmed from a gun-forward mentality in the home.

That being said, in my opinion being incarcerated for life or a period of time is the punishment, not living in fear of violence, death or rape.
That seems easy enough to type on a computer, but is it realistic? If you house large numbers of rapists, murderers, addicts, and violent criminals who defied all efforts by society when free, why would one assume they can be well-controlled in a concentrated population with increased anger and reduced gratifications? Add to that the fact they are guarde by undereducated, low-paid men and women, and it's hardly surprising that their outside behaviors continue inside prison.

If only that were common street knowledge. If only society knew prisons were horrible places, they might make better choices to avoid them, right? [searches futilly for facetious emoticon]

Being surrounded by criminals goes with the territory, but we as a civilized people should take no pleasure when an inmate is harmed by other inmates.

Two things stand out about that premise: it dismisses the reality of prison brutality with an implication it can be eliminated, and it defines civilization by its feelings rather than by its actions. The former assumption seems Utopic, denying the reality of violent people. It conforms with belief systems that attribute violence as a symptom of involuntary behavior rather than philosophy of dominance. The latter premise seems dangerously close to thought policing, e.g., you shouldn't vote for a black or a woman as president if you're doing it out of guilt or because you believe neither can do the job and that it will prove your point if they fail. Doing the right thing for the wrong reasons is still doing the right thing. Whether someone grieves or rejoices over a prisoner being confined and subject to the realities of prison shouldn't be germane to a discussion of the appropriateness of the sentencing.

I have heard some say that sex offenders need to locked up with larger inmates that will "use" them (to put it in a polite way). The boy I referred to was beaten up in the place where he is currently held and a person remarked that he "had it coming". It seems fitting that this boy would never get another chance to harm others, but can we have some compassion on a neglected 15 year old that seems to be mentally ill?
Two subjects again. An eye for an eye wasn't invented by the Jews by any means, and has been found in law codes way back far beyond the Judeo-Christian eras. Your "some" are doing little more than repeating what literally billions of people have believed and supported throughout the history of humanity, including our own country. The code does not comport with progressive modern thought in many circles, including the left wing of both the aforementioned Jewish and Christian leaders, but it does represent a large swath of citizens, and not just MAGA Republicans.

Whereas compassion does make us want to see mercy, and be shown mercy, the reality is that most of the violent offenders have such long rap sheets that whatever put them away for life was just the end of the line. It's even true of non-violent crime. Juveniles go through years of crime, and then again as adults, before serving long prison time. The term "hardened" criminal isn't just a political propaganda term. It's real.

The final question about feeling bad for the killer is a hugely controversial one. Our society could not and did not protect four young lives that were not just equally deserving of compassion, but more. And, emphasizing the mental state as a basis for supporting the murderer in conversations or debates is selecting one aspect of the crime while de-emphasizing the others.

Citizens have every right to be outraged at the violence and the shrug society gives to the never-ending series of school shootings. We have every right to be angry at the violent, at the supporters of the violence, and at the government that protects the violence. A modern trend is to define moral defect as mental defect. We have little hope of ever separating the two, because for non-violent people, we inherently see violence as mentally defective. However, that does not equate to criminally not culpable. The standard for insanity is the inability to understand the wrongness of the act, not whether the person's thinking was somehow abnormal or atypical. A serial rapist may well have been malformed in his adolescence by whatever, but every time he commits a rape, he is actively pursuing a hateful act, knowingly concealing his actions, and in full understanding of the harm. Society rightly condemns that.

Rather than feel sorrow for the 15 year old who decided to act out and knew his actions would kill others, many would redirect that sorrow for the moment the youth decided to follow that willful plan rather than seek help. Claiming that he could not do other is not accurate to psychology or psychiatry.
 
For me, the subject lacks adequate context.

The murders were not isolated behaviors. They occurred within the violent context of the USA, it's problem with violent crime, and its prison population and systems. Below are some screen grabs from Statista, from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, and another I can't recall. They are not presented as irrefutable facts, but as talking points on the topic of murder.

Murders USA.JPG

The total US population hit 282 million in 2000 and 333 million in 2022, for comparisons.

Murder Rates by State.JPG

The highest murder rates were noticeably in the South, as well as Washington DC (not a state, but at 33 per 100,000). The lowest murder rates in states occurred in states with the least racial diversity, in general. This is consistent with published disparity in murder rates among subgroups. States with very large populations, like California, Texas, New York, and Fllorida, seemed to benefit in statistics by virtue of population density.

Changes in Murder Rates.JPG
 
The charts below are in the same vein, but on the topic of prison, sentencing, and programs. Most of these are from the Bureau of Justice Statistics from 2019, the most recent published data. The Bureau doesn't update annually.

The first chart strongly suggests women are underrepresented in prison, presumably from an anti-male bias in the criminal code, or some societal prejudice that protects female privilege. There could be no other plausible reasons. [stares without blinking]

Prison Demographics.JPG

The chart below shows the percentage of prisoners who are sentenced for longer terms, where they are incarcerated, and under what level of security. The data may not be addressing local jails, as they do not typically house prisoners for long terms who are not awaiting trial.

Prison Sentences.JPG

The table below reports the numbers of crimes and violent acts and disciplinary violations in prisons. I believe the data in all these Bureau stsats were from a rolling year, ending in June 2019.

Security in Prison.JPG

Much is said about prisons throwing away the key and not offering the inmates anything other than retribution. The table below suggests the contrary:

Prison Education.JPG

Further, the prisons also have programs that are support services, not just education.

Prison Programs.JPG

Just as in public schools, the employment arena, and society, an individual must still take the initiative to get an education, to own substance abuse and anger, and to adopt a work ethic if he expects to escape the cycle of crime. He is not the victim. He is the one who is responsible for his crime.
 
A 15-year-old boy would not be sent to an adult prison in the UK.

If one can believe Wiki, and I do, the UK has only seen seven deaths from mass killings since 2010, and none attributable to minors.

The US has a murder rate, and a mass shootings rate, astronomically higher, including many by legal minors. The two different environments, including the proliferation of guns, would be relevant in studying the differences.
 
What level of education do you think is appropriate for Correctional Officers?
I don't think a degree is required, but cannot argue that the federal prison requirement for a college degree doesn't help weed out some of the dross.

Most states only require a GED or a HS diploma for guards, educationally, then provide some on-the-job training. Prison guards should have to meet the same level of specialized training that police and firement undergo for their specializations.

More than a few weeks of psychology, of self and others, and some basics of history and government to understand the inmate population, the courts and the prison system.

In this day and age, not requiring even a high school degree is a tacit admission that you'll take applicants who already failed in simpler requirements.

I believe in paying more to get more. Prison guards should have at least a complete year of specialized training prior to being a prison guard.
 
I am somewhat perplexed as to why or how people can get so screwed up, I have been in touch with guys that were in the same boy's home that I was in. One spent 36 years in prison. I didn't ask him what he had done, 36 years speaks for it's self. Another is doing life. Another was a serial killer. Another was a sex offender and did a number of years and is on a registry for life. Yet, others pulled their head out of their asses and got their act together.

A few that I knew were kicked out of the home we were in because they beat up staff members and were so dangerous that they had to be confined. One guy had stabbed a staff worker and killed her.

I went through my own hell in life, but it never entered my mind to harm others to compensate for the abuse or neglect that I had suffered, I faced the world head on and flipped it the bird. This is not to boast, somehow I made a life for myself.

We have young boys (predominantly) that shoot up schools, harm others and feel justified in doing so.
 
I went through my own hell in life, but it never entered my mind to harm others to compensate for the abuse or neglect that I had suffered, I faced the world head on and flipped it the bird. This is not to boast, somehow I made a life for myself.
And that is the choice we all make, whether to be a rat in a rat race, or to be a human and humane. The ship is turned by degree. Every small choice one makes, to commit petty theft, to begin drug use, to recycle, to help others. Each drop in one bucket or the other adds up.

No one is happy to see another make the wrong choices, but society evolves justice codes to make statements about what goes too far.

I'm glad you made it safely, Chuck.
 
The American "justice" system is in no way, shape, or form interested in justice or rehabilitation. It's based purely on vengeance. We're the only developed country that still has the death penalty, let alone executes people with developmental disabilities. We continue to use solitary confinement even though it's been declared a human rights violation. We have no qualms about throwing children into adult prisons, especially if they're Black or brown. This country is truly fucked up.
You forget the "SOMEBODY has to pay for it" part.

The parents of a 15-year-old bear greater responsibility for whatever crimes the minor may commit... and the more "mentally ill" the minor, the broader the social responsibility: since Americans love so much go around suing, local authorities, from the school to the major, are responsible for whatever harm was derived from the crimes, not to speak of the neighbours who like to meddle in issues whenever they feel they have the higher hand, not when they smell trouble for themselves.

Wrapping up the blame and drop it just on the parents is not even halfway justice.
 
You forget the "SOMEBODY has to pay for it" part.

It's more a consequence of the executive and legislative branches failing to ban assault weapons, appropriately punish illegal gun possession and/or sales, and revive incarceration for disturbed citizens before they kill.

The country has been waiting for decades for a case where the parents were actually and clearly culpable and actively promoted gun use by a violent child. This case checked all the boxes.

In most cases, the populace is sympathetic with the family of the killer as addictional victims of the event. These parents defied all efforts to find a reason to see them as unaware. And the school DID take action that very day, to deal with the child, but you are correct in finding them guilty of not sending him home. That said, no one can believe he would not or could not have returned to do exactly the same thing. Uvalde has taught us that we have little hope in many cases of paid guards saving children.
 
It's more a consequence of the executive and legislative branches failing to ban assault weapons, appropriately punish illegal gun possession and/or sales, and revive incarceration for disturbed citizens before they kill.

The country has been waiting for decades for a case where the parents were actually and clearly culpable and actively promoted gun use by a violent child. This case checked all the boxes.

In most cases, the populace is sympathetic with the family of the killer as addictional victims of the event. These parents defied all efforts to find a reason to see them as unaware. And the school DID take action that very day, to deal with the child, but you are correct in finding them guilty of not sending him home. That said, no one can believe he would not or could not have returned to do exactly the same thing. Uvalde has taught us that we have little hope in many cases of paid guards saving children.
I was merely pointing to that idea going around many Americans that it does not matter WHO actually committed a crime, but that SOMEBODY has to pay for the harm suffered; total primitive-religion set of mind and "morals".

And I was not talking about the D-day: that sort of crime and sentence acknowledges a broth with many contributors to the broiling.
 
I'm not sure the punishment of the parents fits the mindless quest for vengeance. There have been MANY school shootings, and the focus has generally remained on the larger issue AND the punishment of the perpetrator. The fact that the shooter was sentenced to life without parole, so the SOMEBODY was already satisfied before the parents were tried and convicted. The sad truth is these parents behaved beligerantly which fed the furor for prosecution. The dad wanted to be a gun advocate, now martryr, and he got it.

As for the sentencing of minors to adult punishments, society cannot have it both ways. If minors are given the power of life and death over other citizens, then play adult games, win adult prizes. The same goes for operation of motor vehicles. If a child can operate one, then he is liable for manslaughter if the occasion arises.

This country needs to get real about its dalliance with perpetual youth, finding excuses to push culpability out to almost 30 in biological maturity while setting the age of smoking, drinking, military service, gun ownership, sexual minor, and legal minor at differnt mileposts.

The shooter behaved as an adult. He sould be executed for the deed he did.
 
I'm not sure the punishment of the parents fits the mindless quest for vengeance. There have been MANY school shootings, and the focus has generally remained on the larger issue AND the punishment of the perpetrator. The sad truth is these parents behaved beligerantly which fed the furor for prosecution. The dad wanted to be a gun advocate, now martryr, and he got it.

As for the sentencing of minors to adult punishments, society cannot have it both ways. If minors are given the power of life and death over other citizens, then play adult games, win adult prizes. The same goes for operation of motor vehicles. If a child can operate one, then he is liable for manslaughter if the occasion arises.

This country needs to get real about its dalliance with perpetual youth, finding excuses to push culpability out to almost 30 in biological maturity while setting the age of smoking, drinking, military service, gun ownership, sexual minor, and legal minor at differnt mileposts.

The shooter behaved as an adult. He sould be executed for the deed he did.
Agree. Totally. Society already accepts them as adults if they sell driving licences and guns to them. Not alcohol or sex, though: that's way too adult.

Indeed he got sentenced mainly for being a prick by rubbing the wrong way... she just remained the family prop.

The focus generally remains on the smaller scapegoat possible for a larger issue with more or less direct adjutors to the perpetrator.
 
So, shooting children like fish in a barrel is behaving as an adult?

Who knew?:)
 
So, shooting children like fish in a barrel is behaving as an adult?

Who knew?:)
Yep: ask the military and the police.

d63720ab732053aeb55a44ac8703c8ee99-reclining-lady-liberty.2x.rsocial.w600.jpg


The crime is that he didn't have a security forces licence or a special pass for that: that's the difference between a national (or Bible Belt) hero and prison scum.

1200px-Kyle_Rittenhouse_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg
 
So, shooting children like fish in a barrel is behaving as an adult?

Who knew?:)
Adult isn't synonymous with wise, but with not irresponsible, unaccountable, or of childsplay. Using a firearm as a weapon is only adult behavior. If a punk in a gang, or an angry, angst-filled teen uses one to steal, to dominate, or to strike out in the world, he has crossed a line into an adult medium.

He's not a wise adult, but he's assuming the purview of an adult and gets to face the consequences as an adult.

Cannot have it both ways. It was no accident he had a gun, had been trained on the use of it, and had free access to it. That was all by intent of both the teen and his parents. All are culpable, but he is the only one directly responsible for the deaths. His parents were abetting and accessories.
 
"Adult" is an arbitrary and ambiguous term. Most if not all states have laws about when and where adolescents are granted certain rights. Driving, drinking alcohol, sex, marriage (not an exhaustive list) are "rights" granted at various stages based upon what law makers see as an appropriate age for juveniles to be allowed to participate. Some will say that driving is a privilege and not a right, if that were to be true then the state could on a whim deny some that privilege.

All of the ages when certain rights are allowed are based upon a "one size fits all" sort of reasoning that is a consensus of the majority of law makers. However, anyone that has dealt with teens would tell you that there are outliers in every age group.

This is when parental responsibility is most important. But, what about a home that is only a house? It seems that a teacher should be able to detect a child that is neglected. A teacher reported the boy who shot up the school for his drawings. The boy hid his back pack, his parents left him in school. The police were not brought in until it was too late.

This boy was given the harshest sentence, his parents will be free again one day and the law protects the school administrators from criminal liability. Most school shootings happened with a surprise element, this one did not. There was a huge red flag, the system really screwed up.
 
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