Can't seem to get past the Friend Zone

[wolfe2010]

hang in there.Looking at your picture I think you're cute and the fact that you may be younger isn't an issue with me.I'm much like you,quiet and on the shy side but I'm learninig sometimes you just got to make the move,the only thing they can do is say no.There are a lot more guys out there.Don't take the rejection personally which is often hard to do.Happy hunting,you'll find someone

 

[Seasoned]

I'm naturally shy and introverted but learned that to get anywhere socially there were times I had to leave my comfort zone. I began by observing how others made small talk (something I loathe) and began mimicking some of that behavior. The thing is, in order to be interesting to others we have to appear interested. I think that where a relationship might lead is decided in a relatively short time upon the initial meeting.

Because others have to work harder to get to know us we are more likely to make friends than to find romantic partners, in my opinion. We can be seen as brooding and intense and may be perceived as standoffish to someone looking for a romp or a bit of fun.

I'm always going to be shy and introverted but when I tell that to people who haven't known me long they sometimes burst out laughing. It is possible to act as if. I'd give it a try in a small way if I were you just to see what happens.

 

[Rolyo85]

The trick is to flip that switch in your head that tells you you are only good friendship material, but not bf material. It's there, and it's on the wrong setting. That can happen after a few failed attempts at dating, and the annoying part is that everyone sees the setting. Find it in yourself and realize it is not about being shy. It is about knowing you're still perfectly marketable

 

[Corny]

you don't even seem like that to me .. at least on the forums.

In any way .. life rewards the bold. Most of the time people have the other problem .. they can easily have some fuck or short relationship, but are unable to develop a "gay" friendship or any sort of longer relationship.

This may sound silly .. but you should try to trust your instincts and even your dick a bit more. If you notice that you're attracted to a guy and it goes beyond "he looks nice" - make your move. You can still make friends if it doesn't work out. I have a friend like that .. my "move" failed. I needed a bit of time, but now we know where we stand and there is no "sexual tension" between us (unlike with other gay friends).

 

[wolfe2010]

I'm an older married man who just came out 6 months ago after seeing a therapist,who helped me get over being homophobic about myself due to emotional abuse and sociaty influence.The whole idea of getting close to a guy is hard but not an impossibilaty.The idea of having sex with strangers dosen't turn me on but being intimate and sharing sex with a close friend would be ok even if it didn't mean a more permanent relationship.One thing I've done is read a lot of books which surprisingly a lot of other gays I've talked to haven't.The best book I've read so far is The Velvet Rage which explains a lot on how we think and why a lot of our relationships are doomed due to our own insecurties ,taking things personaly and a host of other things.I don't know how long you've been out Topher but don't give up.Hell even straight people don't always find it easy to nor do they ever meet that special one.A lot of the suggestions made by other members I found very useful in helping me to get out there.If anything I found that just talking and being honest in how you feel about things to others is the only way they're going to get to know you. Sorry for being so long winded.Best-Wolfe

 

[Telstra]

You look great. Sex first friend later ....

 

[HunterM]

But when I get comfortable enough in a situation, I'm free to make an ass of myself, which it seems I inevitably do in one way or another...

Pfft. Don't worry man. It happens to the best of us. I have a knack to make an ass out of myself all the time. Lived with ex-girlfriends in the past, I could never do anything right when they had PMS. There were times, I was thinking "WTF? What did I even do to upset her? Really don't have a clue" I learned to say "Yes, dear" "Yes, dear" "I'm sorry dear". Drank lots of beer and just gotta laugh about it and move on.

Then...that's what make up sex is for.

 

[subsonic]

I'm an introverted/shy person so it's hard for me to make connections with people. I'm not the type to make the first move... ever.

^^This is exactly me, Toph! Just that.. And I wish I had some great advice on how to get beyond that hurdle, but I really don't.. I'm really trying to work on it myself. I've found some nice self-help books to try and see what good advice they can give because I know, that it's not likely that the shy guy who stands with the back up against the wall will be asked to dance. Approaching guys can be difficult and challenging. But I think that the best thing that one can do for oneself, is to face the dragon and do what feels uncomfortable at times. In time, it won't seem so scary anymore. This is coming from a guy who has taken zero chances and always played it safe, btw.

As for the "friend zone", I think it's just important to draw a thick, white line between what's friendship and what's dating. This, I know can be a bit of a challenge at times, since the lines may can of blur into each other. But if you try and keep a clear division between the two, then I think it will make things easier for you. But I am by no means a dating expert, so.. I might be wrong.

 

[altlover85]

You sound like a pretty nice and chill guy. I definitely get a good vibe from what you've written. The main thing I get from your posts is that you might be choosing the wrong guys and may simply be having issues with timing.

I've gone through your post and have a few questions. If you don't mind answering them, it might help me understand things better.

Honestly, I think if you keep pushing yourself and putting yourself out there, you will find someone compatible. Remember, ideally you aren't going to have to do all the work, but because you are introverted you might have to do more work, even if it doesn't seem that way to the other person. I hope that made sense.

Good luck with things and keep us posted!

I knew a guy for five years and I had been hung up on him the entire time, but he wasn't interested because I was much younger than him. But finally he decided to give it a try, but we never could seem to get on the same page with what we wanted. So we went back to being just friends.

Was it somewhat or partly due to the age diference?

We never officially got beyond the "friends with benefits" stage, even though he thought it was more than that, but still didn't think it was quite "boyfriends" stage either.

I'm a bit confused by this. Is it that you never named yourself as boyfriends? What did he say he thought the two of you were?

He didn't say it was because of me but it wasn't long after he started saying that he had been in love with me. But I'm totally not interested in going there with him anymore. Yet again, cannot get on the same page with someone.

Why aren't you interested now? Is it because you've healed and are now over him?

So how do I get out of the "friend zone" without completely changing the person that I am? I'm a sweet, nice, easy-going person with a lot of love to give someone, but it seems like whatever I do, it's the wrong thing. Or maybe somehow I'm just picking the wrong guys.

I think it could be a combination of timing and the types of guys you are going after? Is there anything these guys had in common?

 

[HunterM]

The only commonality I can think of is that a lot of the guys I connect with tend to have some level of mental or emotional difficulty. And in fact pretty much all of my closest friends at some point in their lives have seriously considered or even attempted suicide. It just seems to be the personality type that attracts me, though none has been overly melancholy or depressive at the time that I met them. Perhaps it's just a certain amount of self awareness that stems from such an experience that piques my interest.

This is interesting Toph. Since I don't know you, here are my questions as I was reading it. Could it be that you were attracted to these people because you think you can help them to get better?...since you could relate to them due to your own history. Maybe not consciously, but in your subconscious, maybe you look at them as projects to makeover? I only ask because a couple of my ex girlfriends tried to make me over into their own image in their heads of whom I shoud be. I didn't like that. And...I'm just as guilty for trying to make someone over as well. I wanted to be her knight in shining armor on a white horse rescueing a damsel in distress. Damn fucking hollywood for feeding me shit all these years! I have learned, and I know better not to do that ever again.

Maybe you should change your strategy to date people who have their shit together. It does not mean they don't have flaws and insecurities. We all do. They need to be able to enjoy life to the fullest with their warts and all. They are comfortable in their own skins. If they do that, most likely, they will accept you for who you are and not trying to make you over.

A lot of guys and I use this strategy for dating women. If I'm sexually attracted to a woman, I refuse to go to the "friend zone" with her. I will befriend her flirtatiously and not just be her loyal friend. Only when she turns me down, then I would become her friend and still flirt with her (not as aggressive though). When the opportunity to date her came up later, I courted her again. She was not surprised at all because I have already expressed my interest when we first met. Then we became a couple...together for 2 years. She saw me as a friend and a lover...not just a BFF. I found this strategy to be working on men as well.

It's like changing lanes in traffic. I lift my turn signal on first (make my intention known that I want to change lane), I wait until traffic is clear for me to make my move.

When I go to a club and see someone I'm interested, I go up to them and start talking and flirting from the get go. I don't hang around her for 5 minutes or longer to summon up my courage to introduce myself. If I waited, it would appear to her that I looked around and didn't see anyone I like...then I have to settle or force to talk to her out of boredom. It works in gay bars too.

So go out of your comfort zone and try something new.

 

[altlover85]

Now to answer your questions. (Thanks for asking!)

No problem. I find asking questions can really help me understand a situation better and I like to get to know people better, so questions are essential for that.

Q: Was it somewhat or partly due to the age diference?
A: Wow, this is a loaded question and is something I spent many years during and after the relationship trying to figure out. Because I was so in love and so hung up on him for a long time. I think that, yes, the age difference did play a part, and not an insignificant one. Ultimately, and I'm no psychologist, I think in some ways he became more of a father figure or mentor to me rather than an equal partner and that does not contribute to a healthy relationship.

I was thinking more of differences in life goals, but I can see how an age difference could cause a dynamic of unequal power.

Q: I'm a bit confused by this. Is it that you never named yourself as boyfriends? What did he say he thought the two of you were?
A: No he never could put a name on it. And I personally tried not to pressure him into giving it a label. As far as I was concerned, without the official mutual declaration of dating, we were friends with benefits with the potential for something more long-term. As I mentioned before, there has to be that potential, otherwise I wouldn't have let it continue. I'm just not interested in a just-for-now relationship.

Q: Why aren't you interested now? Is it because you've healed and are now over him?
A: Again, without getting too psychological, I think to a certain extent I just felt used. I felt like I was a substitute for a relationship. Someone he could "play house" with until something better came along. I know that may sound harsh, but when I realized that, it made it much easier for me to put that behind me and get him out of my head. But there were other fundamental differences which I'm not sure I could deal with in a partner. Specifically, he is a practicing Christian. I admired him greatly because he was never preachy or pressuring; he reads the scriptures and tends to make his own determinations and interpretations rather than just taking everything he's told as truth. However, for me, as an agnostic atheist, I just don't know that I would be able to share my life with someone who has completely different ideas about something as fundamental the origin and nature of existence. I'd never feel comfortable expressing my personal views on the subject. And I don't want somebody I can't be completely open and honest with.

What made you feel he wasn't serious and was just playing house? Was this feeling the reason why you didn't move it beyond friends with benefits?

Q: I think it could be a combination of timing and the types of guys you are going after? Is there anything these guys had in common?
A: The only commonality I can think of is that a lot of the guys I connect with tend to have some level of mental or emotional difficulty. And in fact pretty much all of my closest friends at some point in their lives have seriously considered or even attempted suicide. It just seems to be the personality type that attracts me, though none has been overly melancholy or depressive at the time that I met them. Perhaps it's just a certain amount of self awareness that stems from such an experience that piques my interest.

While attraction is generally not something we can control, I think you're awareness of what they have in common might be helpful for you. Perhaps you can try dating someone that doesn't have those difficulties? I'm sure it's not something you are actively seeking, but it might be good to go against type, just to see how that feels.

On a side note, HunterM you gave some interesting advice. It's something I've never heard of before.

 

[subsonic]

Ahh, thanks Toph! It's nice knowing that you're not alone. That's always a comfort, when everything else fails. But yeah, I think that being aware of the problem is a big step to begin with. This issue kind of just hit me recently actually, and in a way kind of surprised me. It makes it easier to work towards a solution I would say.. Or at least, gives you the motivation to do so.

In theory, this definitely sounds like a good idea. But anyone who's had a close platonic friendship with someone else (whether it's two gay men, or a straight man and straight woman, or whatever other combination where there's possibility of mutual, or even one-way attraction,) knows that that line can get very blurry very quickly. And for me, ideally, my partner will be my best friend. I would love for a romantic relationship to develop naturally from a friendship.

You're right, and I get what you saying. As I typed it I could see the problem as well. I guess it's hard for me to put myself in this situation as I don't really have any male (gay) friends. When I meet a new guy I know it's for a date. If it's more random, then I make sure to determine if the guy is dating potential and/or if there's an interest. But I do think that it complicates things even more when friendships become more then that.
Okay, I'm babbling and don't have any gay friend: don't listen to me.. But I do understand your problem, dear Toph

 

[KaraBulut]

I know what you mean. I've always felt like a bit of a freak because I've never been remotely interested in random hookups while the vast majority of the gay community sees absolutely nothing wrong with them.

And with the forums, there is a certain amount of anonymity that makes it easier, though it's still been tough for me. And it did take me about a month of observing before I even started to participate. And even then, I was hesitant. But when I get comfortable enough in a situation, I'm free to make an ass of myself, which it seems I inevitably do in one way or another...

In theory, this definitely sounds like a good idea. But anyone who's had a close platonic friendship with someone else (whether it's two gay men, or a straight man and straight woman, or whatever other combination where there's possibility of mutual, or even one-way attraction,) knows that that line can get very blurry very quickly. And for me, ideally, my partner will be my best friend. I would love for a romantic relationship to develop naturally from a friendship.

It's interesting how sometimes the posts in the forum have one title but are really about something else.

The real issue here- one that you have described very well- is not that you're in the friend zone. The issue is that in some ways, you're using friends to satisfy a normal and healthy need for emotional intimacy. When you want to change that friendship to a physical intimacy, they- as good friends should- balk for fear of losing the friendship and the emotional intimacy that is the core of that friendship.

Sometimes the friends->friends-with-benefits or friends->lovers thing does work. Most of the time, it just fucks up a perfectly good friendship.

The key is that the cycle you're stuck in is your pattern, not your friends' pattern. It's not that you're stuck in the friend zone. The problem is that you're not willing to risk some degree of emotional intimacy with someone you don't know, so you end up wanting physical intimacy with the friends you trust.

 

[HunterM]

*bonus points if you know what that's from...

 

[Rolyo85]

It's interesting how sometimes the posts in the forum have one title but are really about something else.

The real issue here- one that you have described very well- is not that you're in the friend zone. The issue is that in some ways, you're using friends to satisfy a normal and healthy need for emotional intimacy. When you want to change that friendship to a physical intimacy, they- as good friends should- balk for fear of losing the friendship and the emotional intimacy that is the core of that friendship.

Sometimes the friends -> friends with benefits or friends -> lovers thing does work. Most of the time, it just fucks up a perfectly good friendship.

The key is that the cycle you're stuck in is your pattern, not your friend's pattern. It's not that you're stuck in the friend zone. The problem is that you're not willing to risk some degree of emotional intimacy with someone you don't know, so you end up wanting physical intimacy with the friends you trust.

That's a very good point. Friendships can turn to more, but it's a rare thing. Most relationships start as such. And it's a risk. But a good one.

 

[altlover85]

Well we certainly were at different stages in life. I was still living at home, delivering pizza full time and not doing anything with my life and he already owned his own home and was planning his retirement. But there were also other issues including physical insecurities, emotional needs we couldn't quite fulfill for each other and admittedly a general lack of maturity and experience on my part.

I can totally understand where you're coming from with that.

It was mostly his inability to commit to the term 'boyfriend' when it came to me. Maybe what he felt for me was different from what he had felt for past boyfriends so he couldn't imagine it being an accurate description of our relationship. Or maybe he just didn't like the term 'friends with benefits' because it was too close to 'fuck buddies' and made the whole relationship seem cheap and one-dimensional to him. I'll probably never know. And as for me not taking the relationship further, I did everything I could short of an ultimatum to let him know that I was interested in it. And I don't think an ultimatum would have been appropriate if he wasn't at that place yet.

Just so I understand, did you express interest in being boyfriends with him?

I did date a guy for a while who was friendly and outgoing and had no obvious severe mental difficulties. (Maybe a touch OCD now that I think about it...) It was nice, but when it was over, I didn't miss it. Only ever saw him once again after that, at a party with his new boyfriend and I didn't feel the slightest pang of jealousy or bitterness. There have been others, but I just don't seem to get as emotionally invested for some reason.

My first boyfriend was an outgoing, everybody's my friend (but nobody who's really close) type. That was the most passionate, tumultuous and long-lasting relationship I've had. When it was good it was amazing, but when it was bad, it was miserable. Eventually we decided we'd both been beating a dead horse for far too long. We remained friendly after that, but not really friends.

It sounds like it's some sort of intangible quality that the guys that you are attracted to have. Perhaps some sort of aspect of personality brought about by their challenges?

That's a very good point. Friendships can turn to more, but it's a rare thing. Most relationships start as such. And it's a risk. But a good one.

I agree with this. And, just because you are focused on a relationship doesn't mean that you have to have sex right away either. I'm not saying you're saying that Rolyo85, I'm simply making a point.

 

[altlover85]

I agree as well. And I have no aversion to meeting someone with the up-front intention of a relationship. But in my experiences, there are very few guys who are looking for a relationship if sex is off the table at the top. Why should they when they can find someone else to stick their cock in (or vice versa) pretty much anywhere?

I can understand that. As someone who can have sex without any real emotional connection, but also enjoys sex with such a connection, I don't necessarily think that there needs to be a false dichotomy of those who hookup and are only interested in sex, as opposed to those who want a relationship. Just because I want to have sex with you first, doesn't mean I'm only after sex, but obviously if you weren't comfortable with that and I was interested in dating you, I could take sex off the table initially until you were more comfortable. I would agree with you that it might be rare for guys like me to exist.

Yes. Sometime after he initiated the physical side of things. That was when we had the conversation where he explained that we were more than FWB but not quite boyfriends.

Now I better understand what you meant.

Yes. And the fact that I can identify with them and share some insight from my point of view. I really empathize with them, even if I'm not aware of their specific circumstances at first.

It sounds like the fact that you can empathize with them is important to you, as it is to many people. I think as long as you stay open, you'll find someone. In other words, keep doing what your doing and stay open for surprises.

 

[maxpowr9]

I empathize with you Topher. I'm pretty similar to you so I know how it feels the way you do. The hardest thing is to let tear down those emotional barriers we put up and let people get to know the "real you". Being naked/having sex in my mind is literally exposing yourself to someone else and it can be a bit daunting. I could ramble on but if this is something you ever need someone to talk about, feel free to PM me.