Carter baking a bundt cake for Hamas

[LaloGS]

They make the accusation in order to try to establish some sort of moral equivalency for real terrorists. Military action, even sloppy military action which kills numerous civilians, is not terrorism; any claims to the contrary are specious.

Not in the dictionary definition of Terrorism. When innocent people are the target, even in war times, it fits the definition of terrorism. We have done it repeatedly since WWII, and are still doing it. To a lot of the world our military actions are viewed as terrorism. Dropping bombs in populated areas to supposedly kill a high level target of opportunity, might or might not kill the target, but it also kills many innocents that are uninvolved. Our methods of war are not without malice, with a dash of good ol' American racism thrown in.

 

[LaloGS]

I have no idea what he remembers or has forgotten, but my intention was certainly not to raise the dubious spectre of a history discussion with one who begins with the yelp of a ten year old's "they started it!", as I do not consider that to be an intelligent start to any discussion.

My intention in utilising that quote was in order to demonstrate that disagreements do exist within the leadership of Hamas and that the opportunity for dialogue would and does exist if everyone would stop shooting one another and pointing fingers, and simply decide that peace, rather than ego, a distorted sense of "history" and a bloodlust for revenge is a viable and desirable conclusion to the mess that is going on right now.

There has to be an understanding that BOTH sides have a right to defend themselves and not only one side. Anyone who believes that the firing of rockets into (for the vast part) empty streets and fields somehow justifies the "self-defense" indiscriminate killing of civilians is the one being truly disingenuous (which was the word you actually wanted to use, by the way).

It is not my intention either, however, to have that discussion, as that is not the topic of the thread.

To specifically address what you have said, however, if you read the quote fully, you would have seen that he was quite specific about what he regarded as the "Occupied Territories", ie: Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. As has already previously been stated, there is a large contingent within the Hamas leadership which has been more than willing to discuss withdrawal to the pre-1967 borders. I am not surprised and really couldn't care less that there are so many Americans who a) choose to ignore this fact, b) have no understanding whatsoever of the actual history of the region and c) blindly and blithely wander about spewing radical Zionist propaganda as fact. Most Americans really have nothing to do with the actual process and serve only to annoy one another with arguments over the issues without actually understanding them.

What disturbs me is when the actual principles in what is supposed to be a peace process are guilty of the same things. This is extremely unhelpful, and will simply serve to extend the dispute further.

As far as "leaving Israel with undefendable borders", who is really being disingenuous now?

Very good post Chalchalero.

 

[LaloGS]

Let me ask you something oh proponents of peace with Hamas. I know not all of you are Americans so please use your own example. How much dialogue would we endure if a sect from mexico or canada was responsible for 250 American deaths via rocket and suicide bombing? How about if the same ilk pushes their people in to such utter poverty that they are perceived as the only help in the region and then duly elected. Would that make a difference if they are still killing people in our cities?

Oh Please. . . How much dialog has happened over the masses of people killed every month in the US for lack of gun control. It isn't reasonable to continue as if we live in the wild west, yet we do. Hypothetical questions are superfluous in this discussion. They achieve nothing. Especially if the situation is completely imaginary and defenseless.

Israel has been as much the aggressor as has Hammas. The Katusha rockets that are fired into Israel are in deed terrorist acts, but Israeli air strikes, and blockades of essential goods and services to Palestinians in Gaza do nothing but prolong the conflict. Both these groups operate on the ancient concept of an eye for an eye. A sure way to prolong conflict.

 

[JayHawk]

SO they should embrace the people lobbing bombs at them?

The question was meant for rational people who would duly note that America would not tolerate such activity and forcing our "lets all be friends" bullshit will not work. It wouldn't matter if the Pope, Ghandi, JFK and Mickey fuckin mouse was to talk with them.

I predicted the violence a year before the last israeli military action. They gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted. All the land they ask for. They essentially shortened their borders. The inherited missiles that reach deeper into Israel. Get a grip on reality.

 

[SoulSearcher]

SO they should embrace the people lobbing bombs at them?

The question was meant for rational people who would duly note that America would not tolerate such activity and forcing our "lets all be friends" bullshit will not work. It wouldn't matter if the Pope, Ghandi, JFK and Mickey fuckin mouse was to talk with them.

I predicted the violence a year before the last israeli military action. They gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted. All the land they ask for. They essentially shortened their borders. The inherited missiles that reach deeper into Israel. Get a grip on reality.

Being Israeli, I find your arguments quite amusing. We didn't give Gaza back to the Palestinians to be nice to them, we did it unilaterally, so tha we can concentrate building up more illegal settlements around key settlements on the West Bank, along with the wall. This way to the world and people like you, it'll look like we want peace and everything we do is because of Palestinian "terrroism", while in fact creating more "facts on the ground" by encouraging more illegal settlement activity and making the wall bank into 3 or 4 enclosed cantons with Jew only roads and settlements snaking through them. You get a grip on reality.

 

[Chalchalero]

Let me ask you something oh proponents of peace with Hamas. I know not all of you are Americans so please use your own example. How much dialogue would we endure if a sect from mexico or canada was responsible for 250 American deaths via rocket and suicide bombing? How about if the same ilk pushes their people in to such utter poverty that they are perceived as the only help in the region and then duly elected. Would that make a difference if they are still killing people in our cities?

I will gladly answer your question.

I believe that even in America, which tends to pride itself on believing in some level of justice and fairness, justifiably or not, I do not believe that under the circumstances which you describe even this administration (which is so egregious in everything else) would permit the collective punishment of such a "sect's" entire population. Not for the deaths of 250 people over the period of 6 years (Hamas first began using home-made Qassam rockets to hit Israeli towns in 2002). Some cities in the US have a worse murder rate on an annual basis.

I do not believe that the US would declare the region of Juarez, or the Province of, say, Saskatchewan an "enemy entity" as Israel did regarding Gaza in September of 2007. And yet, Israel's declaration, ostensibly in reaction to the firing of rockets from Gaza, was immediately backed by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and followed by a series of collective punishment measures that have crippled Gaza's already suffering economy. Israel has denied the importing of basic needs including medicine, severely limited exports, cut fuel supplies to the impoverished strip, and halted the movement of people to and from Gaza -- including those in need of urgent medical care.

I do not believe the US would periodically invade (or as more delicately put in terms of Israel - stage "incursions") into either Mexico or Canada with the intention of destroying property, murdering civilians, including and often particularly unarmed women and children (with the pitiful excuse that the "terrorists" hide among them - the fact is that they LIVE among them. There is not a whole lot of space in Gaza for anyone to actually "hide" anywhere.)

History has shown that "incursions" and collective punshment do not and have never worked when attempting to deal with guerrilla elements. The IRA did not cease its activities until their political wing was invited to sit down at the table. The Colombian government sporadically holds talks in neutral zones with the FARC. Spain's President Rodríguez Zapatero was until recently holding talks with the Basque separatists, until they recommenced their bombing attacks. Agreements are even being reached with the end of reuniting Cyprus, after over thirty tears of conflict. All of these demonstrate examples in today's news of where conflicts all around the world are being resolved by dialogue and discussions, rather than simple warfare and attempts at annihilation.

 

[JayHawk]

Being Israeli, I find your arguments quite amusing. We didn't give Gaza back to the Palestinians to be nice to them, we did it unilaterally, so tha we can concentrate building up more illegal settlements around key settlements on the West Bank, along with the wall. This way to the world and people like you, it'll look like we want peace and everything we do is because of Palestinian "terrroism", while in fact creating more "facts on the ground" by encouraging more illegal settlement activity and making the wall bank into 3 or 4 enclosed cantons with Jew only roads and settlements snaking through them. You get a grip on reality.

I guess I can not argue with someone living in Israel. You know what your country is doing. Did ya see the Alicia Keys thread about the conspiracy theory of the US govt against blacks? I think you and Alicia would have alot to talk about.

Show me the world outrage at these secret camps set up on the west bank. How did it excape us all in that region of the world where it seems it is everyones business.

 

[SoulSearcher]

I guess I can not argue with someone living in Israel. You know what your country is doing. Did ya see the Alicia Keys thread about the conspiracy theory of the US govt against blacks? I think you and Alicia would have alot to talk about.

Show me the world outrage at these secret camps set up on the west bank. How did it excape us all in that region of the world where it seems it is everyones business.

Hilarious! You're probably the only one who could comprehend your equating me to Alicia, but I'll let your rationale to you. To me, thats like someone telling you that you and this Rabbi have a lot to talk about, totally irrationale.

Settlements are a conspiracy now??? Perhaps to people like you who live in Foxistan! Increased illegal settlement activity didn't escape the world, it escaped you. I suggest you read Israeli media rather than Fox and CNN or wherever you get your news from. These camps are not secrets. The only place where you don't see any outrage is in the United States of America.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/954698.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/956199.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/957116.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/963267.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/964405.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/967035.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/956802.html
http://www.peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=61&docid=3186
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7286264.stm
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/02/17/africa/ME-GEN-Israel-Settlements.php
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/970234.html
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/972825.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/jul/27/israel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3455557.stm
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/01/23/news/settlers.php
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/18/israel

 

[D8Na2R]

The former president needs to be a spokesman for Aricept. o yes.... first of all he needs to be taking it...preferably intravenously. McCain my be going senile....Cater as already made the trip and been living there a while.

 

[chance1]

not surprising that Jimmy crack corn made the trip - its what he does

and his anti semitism - well, he wears it on his sleeve

he's not really a factor

meeting with a terrorist organization is pretty weak stuff - but jimmy crack was never strong on security issues so ..............

he does build a mean house

 

[Jannus]

Meeting with terrorist, even elected ones, whether in Iran or Palestine, give credance to their cause and encourages continuation of their policies of destruction.

This week, the Pope will be meeting with GWB at the White House.


How sad that the Vatican - once a symbol of peace - is now promoting terrorism.

 

[D8Na2R]

^one can only hope

 

[Kulindahr]

I believe that what frightens those who are so vocal in their opposition to Carter's visit, is the fact that he may actually achieve some sort of softening of Meshaal's position, or reach some sort of agreement with him that might force the neo-cons and the radical zionist lobbyists to the realisation that the leadership of Hamas are actually human beings. That would be most uncomfortable for their propaganda machines, not to mention threaten the immense amount of money that is made by Israel and the American defense industry as long as the conflict is perpetuated.

President Carter has a long and distinguished history of peace-making, something which has never, can never and will never be said about George W. Bush and his administration or anyone in the leadership of Israel over the last 15 years. It does not surprise me that their supporters would love never to hear from a man of peace like President Carter ever again.

I believe that anyone who genuinely wants peace should wish him well. It is stupid to believe that peace can be achieved without talking to one of the main parties in the conflict. President Carter realizes this. It would have been better if the Bush Aadministration had come to this realisation themselves, but their interests, I fear, are counter-productive to peace. They have proven this from their first day in office and continue to do so today.

I'd say the big concern about Carter going is that once more the terrorists will stand there smiling and stealing the prestige and implied blessing of an American president, and once he's gone go back to more indiscriminate slaughter of innocents.

So long as the leadership of Hamas countenance such slaughter, they don't deserve to be treated with as human beings. Let them bring out those who have planned and continue to plan such barbarity, and execute them publicly by beheading in the marketplace, and there will be room for talk -- one does not talk with murderers, and until those in Hamas who carry out murder are brought out and given justice, the leadership is properly counted with murderers.

Carter has been duped before, so I won't wish him well -- I'll wish, instead, for a miracle, that he see these men for what they truly are, and describe that truly to the world, so that all may know what the region's one democracy is up against.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oh Please. . . How much dialog has happened over the masses of people killed every month in the US for lack of gun control. It isn't reasonable to continue as if we live in the wild west, yet we do. Hypothetical questions are superfluous in this discussion. They achieve nothing. Especially if the situation is completely imaginary and defenseless.

Israel has been as much the aggressor as has Hammas. The Katusha rockets that are fired into Israel are in deed terrorist acts, but Israeli air strikes, and blockades of essential goods and services to Palestinians in Gaza do nothing but prolong the conflict. Both these groups operate on the ancient concept of an eye for an eye. A sure way to prolong conflict.

Gun control.
Hamas.

In both situations, you extend condemnation to the victims and encouragement to those who would victimize.

Let's revisit your final paragraph:

Britain has been as much the aggressor as has Germany. The U2 rockets that are fired into England are in deed terrorist acts, but British air strikes, and blockades of essential goods and services to Germany's allies do nothing but prolong the conflict. Both these groups operate on the ancient concept of an eye for an eye. A sure way to prolong conflict.

 

[Kulindahr]

Just for the record...
Many of the people in Gaza are stuck there because they haven't been allowed by Egypt to settle there. During the recent 'crisis', Egypt could have easily opened the border and let people out of Gaza. Arab nations flowing with oil wealth could help ease the situation by offering aid to any who would settle elsewhere.
But do they? No. The situation is little different than it was at the beginning of all this: the Palestinian Arabs have been disowned by their fellow Arabs, who even give them a new ethnicity, "Palestinian", so they don't have to remember that these are kin. They are willing to manipulate these kin, to use them for their own ends, but will they be neighbors to them? will they extend a helping hand? No.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Just for the record...
Many of the people in Gaza are stuck there because they haven't been allowed by Egypt to settle there. During the recent 'crisis', Egypt could have easily opened the border and let people out of Gaza. Arab nations flowing with oil wealth could help ease the situation by offering aid to any who would settle elsewhere.
But do they? No. The situation is little different than it was at the beginning of all this: the Palestinian Arabs have been disowned by their fellow Arabs, who even give them a new ethnicity, "Palestinian", so they don't have to remember that these are kin. They are willing to manipulate these kin, to use them for their own ends, but will they be neighbors to them? will they extend a helping hand? No.

Do you happen to know an ethnicity that is not an invention? Any at all?

 

[LaloGS]

SO they should embrace the people lobbing bombs at them? Of course not, but for every essentially ineffective Katusha that lands in Israel, the Israelis take out government offices and officials, or needed infrastructure. Impoverishing the Gaza even further than it is. These people have no chance to be rational when they are kept at survival level. That would make any one crazy enough to stirke back anyway they could, including you Mazda.

The question was meant for rational people who would duly note that America would not tolerate such activity and forcing our "lets all be friends" bullshit will not work. It wouldn't matter if the Pope, Ghandi, JFK and Mickey fuckin mouse was to talk with them. What would work in your opinion? Genocide? Truly fuckin' Micky Mouse, not to say even callus on your part.

I predicted the violence a year before the last israeli military action. Any thinking person could have predicted the violence, because Israel pushed the Palestinians into ghettos which were essentially controlled by the Israelis. They gave the Palestinians exactly what they wanted. All the land they ask for. They essentially shortened their borders. The inherited missiles that reach deeper into Israel. Get a grip on reality.

Clearly you choose to see only one side of this issue, when there are several.

 

[LaloGS]

Being Israeli, I find your arguments quite amusing. We didn't give Gaza back to the Palestinians to be nice to them, we did it unilaterally, so tha we can concentrate building up more illegal settlements around key settlements on the West Bank, along with the wall. This way to the world and people like you, it'll look like we want peace and everything we do is because of Palestinian "terrroism", while in fact creating more "facts on the ground" by encouraging more illegal settlement activity and making the wall bank into 3 or 4 enclosed cantons with Jew only roads and settlements snaking through them. You get a grip on reality.

Thanks for bringing some reality to this thread.

 

[LaloGS]

not surprising that Jimmy crack corn made the trip - its what he does

and his anti semitism - well, he wears it on his sleeve

he's not really a factor

meeting with a terrorist organization is pretty weak stuff - but jimmy crack was never strong on security issues so ..............

he does build a mean house

Ignorant post Chance. As usual.

 

[LaloGS]

This week, the Pope will be meeting with GWB at the White House.


How sad that the Vatican - once a symbol of peace - is now promoting terrorism.

Since when has the Vatican been the symbol of peace? Read some of the Vatican's history and read reality.