CF's Logan : Apparently gay

[PhunkSpunk]

I don't think that today's youth are in anyway "over" labels and defined sexuality, for girls or boys.

By no means 'over', but I think greatly improved in the half-generation since we graduated.

To say that girls/women don't struggle with sexuality is a dangerous claim. I feel that in many ways the dominant heterosexual paradigm encourages the view that girls are somehow more inclined to "mess around" with other girls, and it doesn't have any bearing on their sexuality, which is by default heterosexual.

I didn't mean to say that girls/women don't stuggle with their sexuality. All I meant to say is that 'messing around' in adolescence and early adulthood is may be becoming as acceptable for guys as it has been for girls.

Sometimes, I think we need to discard the term 'gay', a term that is tied to the activism of two generations ago that has outlived its usefulness. Frankly, it seems as antiquated as 'women's lib'.

As a result of that activism, as a society we are now well aware that sexuality comes in many flavors. So perhaps it is time we return to 'homosexual', as the term is more inclusive with regard to the number of people it will account for, more specific with regard to the behavior it describes, and, most importantly, less confining with regard to the 'type' of person engaging in said behavior.

Then, perhaps once again a five-year old's birthday party can be a 'gay' affair!

I realize this entry probably doesn't belong in a thread dedicated to a porno web site!

 

[benlemieux2003]

I think you guys have gone overboard with the subject.

Fact is Logan is most likely bi (from videos of him enjoying girls and guys), open-minded, whatever.

And those "suck my straight dick and balls" or "you give better bjs than my girlfriend" or "I have a date with a chick after this shoot" sound awfully scripted to make us gay guys drool more.

Fact is it's simple human psychology and CF is playing with it. You always desire more what seems to be impossible to get. Straight guys going gay is a huge turn-on for gay guys because those masculine dudes are the opposite of the gay guys we know in our everyday lives. More so, "straight guys" going gay makes gay guys wish they were special and that we'd have that kind of attention. That's why CF is so popular, no matter what you say.

Now I agree some guys might have been straight at first, then got offered good money and thought "what the heck, I'll do it." Some of them can still truly be gay for pay. But for Logan, enjoying getting his ass rammed, sucking dick and screaming "cum on my face" and enjoying swallowing loads, if he was straight the day he started, he clearly isn't anymore.

A know a couple of swinging bi guys who truly do not give a damn about gender as long as they get laid. Gender is not even a consideration for them and they just serve themselves at the buffet. But they at least admit they're not straight, even if it's only fucking and no romance with guys.

And a lot of them are the CF-looking-attitude kinda guys. Jockish, sex-driven, live for the moment kinda guys. They don't come to me as the deepest personalities or developed intellect that take their actions and put them in perspective. If they can get laid (and in CF's case, get paid) they'll do it, and sexual orientation is the least of their concerns. It means nothing to them. Fact is they're like most animals who screw any of their race as long as they can screw them and have fun.

So you're a guy who enjoys getting laid with guys or girls, you're comfortable with who you are (an ambivalent bisexual), you get good money out of it, you live out crazy sex fantasies and you don't think about tomorrow, chances are you're Logan from Corbin Fisher.

Your honor, I rest my case.

 

[benlemieux2003]

Yeah sorry.

I was kinda losing patience here. It seemed it was turning into yet an other thread of pro vs con CF and gay-for-pay.

Corbin has a great strategy. It's the most elementary commercial strategy of all. Repeat something often enough, make it explicit and people will end up believing it.

How did Hitler make the most instructed and advanced society in the world wage war and try to exterminate Jews? Because he repeated countless times that they were rats and scum, and played on their emotions of despair for a personal goal over bogus ideas.

How did George W. Bush convince America the Iraq war was right in 2003? He and his buddies repeated countless times Iraq had weapons of mass destruction over bogus proofs. Played on people's fears and they ended up believing him.

Genocide and warfare aside, same strategy goes for CF. Corbin's in to make money and is aware of the "straight college jock" fetish of most gay guys. He rounds up the hottest guys he can find, most likely bi guys and labels them straight for us to buy, out of excitement of seeing a fantasy come true. He repeats it countless times "oh i've got a gf", "suck my straight dick" and most people buy it.

I thought it was hot at first but I've grown tired of the act. That's why I'm more into Blake Mason's guys now. It's more honest and humble.

But would anyone know any CF guys we could invite?

 

[Clooneyesque]

And I, too, have dated Jasun. He'll deny it but you only have to look at my avatar to see it's true.

 

[Clooneyesque]

And though there may be plenty of ambivalent bi/pan/omni-sexuals out there, there are still plenty of folks who do really, really take this to heart and struggle, or they are now comfortable but did struggle in the past. I think for those people, sites like CF can ruffle a few feathers, and make those who did struggle to come to terms with themselves a bit bitter at these guys who suck dick and claim total heterosexuality.

Right on to that! Finally someone here who understands.

I think the word "bitter" might be a bit harsh, but you're probably right. The thing about the struggle for those of us who aren't comfortably nestled in the gay ghettoes is that it can be really lonely and frightening, and then to suddenly see some "straight" guy, who for all you know might have been one of the queer bashers in high school come along and say "I can have sex with a guy and it doesn't mean a thing so fuck you", well, that just fucking hurts. In a way it feels like just another form of gay bashing.

 

[miztab13]

So it's straight for pay then.... ???

Maybe. Blu Kennedy(AJ on CF) did an interview where he said that the bi vid he did for CF was the first time he fucked a chick. He got paid a lot of money apparently. He was already out then and Corbin knew that, but Corbin asked him if he wanted to do a bi vid anyway.

 

[PhunkSpunk]

Maybe. Blu Kennedy(AJ on CF) did an interview where he said that the bi vid he did for CF was the first time he fucked a chick. He got paid a lot of money apparently. He was already out then and Corbin knew that, but Corbin asked him if he wanted to do a bi vid anyway.

I think the fact that he got to make out with Eric and suck on his massive dong may have been part of the incentive, too.

Eric: now there's a hottie I'd like to see cum back

 

[Clooneyesque]

The only thing proven here is that gay men need their fantasy usually to the detriment of real life self-esteem - if not their's, than someone else's in the community.

All the protestations by gay men that Logan or whoever has got to be straight just because they're advertised as being so reminds me of female fans of male movie stars who go on the warpath when it's suggested that the object of their fantasy might be in the closet. There would have been a riot of Day of the Locust proportions if it was proven beyond doubt that Rock Hudson was really gay back in the day. Except that he was, despite a 24-7 publicity campaign to assure love-stricken female fans that he was not.

Again this is not about the porn performer's actually real life sexuality -- unless you know him personally, you simply can't know for sure, and really, what's the point? It's all a fantasy for God's sake.

What bugs me about gay for pay is the reinforcement of the idea that gay men are ugly and repulsive, so we need straights to fulfill our fantasy. Why not just be honest and shout it out:

GAY MEN ARE UGLY GAY MEN ARE UGLY GAY MEN ARE UGLY GAY MEN ARE UGLY

Well, that feels better.

 

[UWSMike]

All I meant to say is that 'messing around' in adolescence and early adulthood is may be becoming as acceptable for guys as it has been for girls.

Where do you come up with this shit, Phunk?

I mean there are countless articles written (in 2007) about the double standard applied to young men and women, how it's cool and considered "hot" by men for two women to make out or even have sex, but, as the saying goes "suck one cock and you're gay forever."

Do I wish that what you posited was true? Yes.
Is it? No way, no how, no where.

I think high school students may be more aware of and accepting of homosexuality in general. But as for their own sexuality, it's got a long way to go.

On another note, remember that CFs boys don't make "a lot of money" for doing this. There's some amount of desperation in doing porn, regardless of your sexuality. Coupled with a large dose of exhibitionism.

Personally, I think it's important to realize that Logan et al are gay or bi. Why? Because a large part of CFs membership, I suspect, are closeted "straight" guys who watch Lucas get fucked every which way to Sunday by a dozen guys and are then able to tell themselves "see, even though he gets fucked up the ass and likes it, he's still straight. I'm going to hook up with a guy tonight at a bookstore and then go to dinner with my girlfriend. And just like Lucas, I'm still straight."

 

[PhunkSpunk]

The only thing proven here is that gay men need their fantasy usually to the detriment of real life self-esteem - if not their's, than someone else's in the community.

I agree that the need of some gay men to see identified 'straight' men have gay sex (as opposed to gay men) speaks to internalized homophobia. For example, I understand that after the advent of 'Adrian', who I thought was wicked hawt and sexy, the CF site was deluged with complaints to the effect of 'get that damn faggot off your site!'

Just look at the recent postings on this board and see how many of you guys are down on Spencer and Matt? Matt's adorable; he's also gay. I juxapose this censor with the enthusiasm so many of you showed for fugly Dirk. He must have appealled to 'rough trade' fantasies or something.

Personally, my appreciation for Corbin Fisher started from the opposite end, as I at first thought that there's no way that those guys could do all that and not be gay; which allowed me to entertain the fantasy that all those hot guys in HS on whom I had secret crushes may have been, too. However, I have since come to appreciate that there's no limit to what a person might do if you wave enough of the green in front of them. My enthusiasm for these videos has waned as a result.

The performers I like the most these days are the ones I think are 'exploring', or are not straight as advertised. I'd include Brent, Cade, and possible Ryan and Trevor in this group.

Some of you have also said stuff to the effect that because Logan, Lucas et al. have done it so much, and with so many different guys, they must be gay. That argument doesn't cut any ice for me: conversely I think the more you do it, the easier it becomes.

I should also point out that main stream gay producers like Chi Chi La Rue have said that straight models are often better performers in gay videos than gay models.

There would have been a riot of Day of the Locust proportions if it was proven beyond doubt that Rock Hudson was really gay back in the day. Except that he was, despite a 24-7 publicity campaign to assure love-stricken female fans that he was not.

Kudos for the Nathaniel West reference!

However, according to both my mother and grandmother, Rock's orientation was no secret, publicity blitz and beard wife notwithstanding. Significantly, in the late 50s he stopped being a matinee idol romantic lead as the gossip had made those roles increasingly implausible for him. Instead, he re-invented himself brilliantly as a, pardon the pun, comic 'straight' man in those still-hysterical Doris Day 'professional virgin' comedies. In fact, in the first one, 'Pillow Talk', he has a lot of fun with all the gossip about him. It was in these movies that Hudson truly found his niche. His comic timing and dead-pan delivery rivalled that of Cary Grant.

I saw 'Lover Come Back' a few months back. I thought I was going to split my side!

 

[gribbles]

Because a large part of CFs membership, I suspect, are closeted "straight" guys who watch Lucas get fucked every which way to Sunday by a dozen guys and are then able to tell themselves "see, even though he gets fucked up the ass and likes it, he's still straight. I'm going to hook up with a guy tonight at a bookstore and then go to dinner with my girlfriend. And just like Lucas, I'm still straight."

And this is bad because . . . . ? ? ? ? ? Who cares if there are straight boys out there lying to themselves about their sexuality? Who cares if the boys at CF are lying to themselves (and us) about their sexuality? It's their life and they can live it how they please, in denial or not. Do I think this obsession with "straight" guys is harming the gay community? If it is, then all porn is because there's plenty more out there that's setting up unrealistic expectations. It's a fantasy and some guys get off on the "straight" guy fantasy. As long as there's a market for it, CF will no doubt provide product.

Sooner or later most people come to some sort of conclusion about their sexuality and declare it one way or another, in their own time. If a straight guy watches CF (or performs on CF) and then, ten years later comes out of the closet, then I'd say, he came out when he was ready to come out. Score one for the gay side. And if a straight guy watches CF (or performs for CF) and continues to proclaim his straightness until he dies, then I'd say he probably was straight or in very deep denial. Either way, both guys have every right to enjoy the CF experience -- on their own terms.

As for the change in attitudes, I (and Phunk, too, probably) tend to see the glass as half full, and getting fuller. And you see it as half empty and getting full too slowly. Just a different way of looking at things, I guess.

 

[PhunkSpunk]

Where do you come up with this shit, Phunk?

Please kindly refrain from using 4-letter words in what is supposed to be a friendly community bulletin board and not a bully pulpit for the excessively strident. It is especially unseemly coming from a high school teacher.

All I said was that things were slowly improving, and becoming more tolerant for guys. I did not say that frank sodomy is now as condign as it once was at English Public Schools.

On another note, remember that CFs boys don't make "a lot of money" for doing this. There's some amount of desperation in doing porn, regardless of your sexuality. Coupled with a large dose of exhibitionism.

Emphasizing again that I am not an insider, and am not at all affiliated with the site, I've heard enough figures bandied about that suggest that the 'core' models on 'Corbin Fisher' and 'Active Duty' do very well for themselves indeed -- far better than the typical mainstream porn model. These are the two sites with the highest degree of continuity -- they have a 'cast', and CF's 'education' is Dink Flamingo's 'crossing the line' -- and as a result generate shitloads of money: guys (and some women) keep ponying up the $25/mo. to see who 'Dawson' or 'Dean' is going to do next.

Just for an idea of the pay scale of these sites, Sean Cody recently posted an ad for models on Craig's list which offered $1,000 plus hotel and airfare for a solo video. You'd have to get fucked to get that kind of money in mainstream porn!

Personally, I think it's important to realize that Logan et al are gay or bi. Why? Because a large part of CFs membership, I suspect, are closeted "straight" guys who watch Lucas get fucked every which way to Sunday by a dozen guys and are then able to tell themselves "see, even though he gets fucked up the ass and likes it, he's still straight. I'm going to hook up with a guy tonight at a bookstore and then go to dinner with my girlfriend. And just like Lucas, I'm still straight."

Like I said in response to an earlier post, I don't think the frequency with which these guys 'do it' says anything about their sexuality. As with all things, having sex with men just gets easier for them with repetition – rote, even. It's just a job.

 

[PhunkSpunk]

Another wonderful post, Gribbles

 

[UWSMike]

Phunk: I think the part of your brain that allows you to come up with nonsense like "the more sex a model has on screen, the less likely he is to be gay" also came up with my career as a high school teacher.

Teaching is a noble profession, but I make my living in the (non-porn) entertainment industry. So I'm intimately acquainted with the magic of the edit suite.

Now your last post has got to rank as your most ridiculous. And that's quite the accomplishment.

We're on a board where the topic of discussion is gay porn stars fucking and sucking and their talents at such things and you object to the word "shit'

And no Gribbles, I don't think you and Phunk are optimists. I think you're just unrealistic in your observations. People's attitudes towards gay Americans have changed dramatically in the past 10 years, and all for the better. But when you come up with blatant nonsense like "it's become acceptable for frat boy types to experiment with gay sex," or "they get $1,000 for a solo on Sean Cody That's good money" well, someone's got to call you on it.

Besides, it's lots of fun watching you get your g-strings in a twist.

 

[Clooneyesque]

according to both my mother and grandmother, Rock's orientation was no secret, publicity blitz and beard wife notwithstanding. Significantly, in the late 50s he stopped being a matinee idol romantic lead as the gossip had made those roles increasingly implausible for him.

Oh, I'm sure your mother and grandmother was up on the "True Confessions" gossip rumors that Rock was queer, probably every movie star fan was back then - it was quite notorious. But that doesn't mean that those rumors were believed or taken seriously. It was still a big shock to the public in general when it was discovered that Rock Hudson had AIDS back in the seventies, and even then a lot of people refused to seriously entertain that Hudson might be homosexual (including co-star Doris Day). It just didn't fit with his masculine image, camp comedy roles notwithstanding.

What I don't understand is your insistence about knowing whether a certain performer is straight or not, and why is it so important in the first place. I also feel a bit of condescension in this attitude of "oh, I once thought they were really gay, too, but of course now I'm so much wiser than that." Which in effect means so much wiser than those of us who don't share your point of view.

 

[gribbles]

And no Gribbles, I don't think you and Phunk are optimists. I think you're just unrealistic in your observations. People's attitudes towards gay Americans have changed dramatically in the past 10 years, and all for the better. But when you come up with blatant nonsense like "it's become acceptable for frat boy types to experiment with gay sex," or "they get $1,000 for a solo on Sean Cody That's good money" well, someone's got to call you on it.

No, I don't think $1000 is a whole lot. But my guess is Lucas and Dawson, as CF stars, are probably getting $4000-$5000 for a bottoming scene. Seeing as they film three or four scenes in a weekend, they leave with $10,000 to $20,000 in their pocket. For a guy in his early twenties with no college degree, I'd say THAT'S a lot for a weekend's work. It's a year's tuition at a decent state college, it's a new car, it's a year's rent in a nice apartment. There are plenty of lower middle-class folks who go bankrupt because of $20,000 in credit card debt. But if you're making the big bucks in the entertainment industry, maybe you aren't in touch with that segment of the population. I can see how any guy, gay or straight, might be lured in to the CF studios for the money. (Considering what we've seen from CF lately, it certainly couldn't be for the mind-blowing sex!)

BTW, I do I work with high school kids in several after-school activities. I work with them at least 2-3 times a week and have, on occassion, overhead some pretty interesting conversations about sex and sexuality. Oddly enough, these conversations always go on in mixed company without any embarrassment. Now, given, these are "creative" types and they tend to be more open in their viewpoints about everything, but they continue to astound me with the depth of their awareness. I blame this entirely on the internet. What surprises me even more is that they are so matter-of-fact about subject matter that would never, ever have been discussed fifteen years ago. They have friends who are gay, who are bi, and who are straight, and it doesn't seem to make a difference to them who is doing what to whom, as long as someone is doing something to someone else.

When I was in high school, you were either gay or straight, and if you were gay, you kept it to yourself until you graduated and went to college. I take a look at the MySpace pages of high school age kids and I see the entire spectrum listed under "Orientation." And "bi" seems to be show up on occassion which seems to suggest experimentation. Is it the same percentage as the adult population? No. But the fact that these high school and college age kids are completely open about their sexuality, on a public forum, says that things are moving in the right direction, and a lot faster than I ever thought they would.

Now, I don't live down South in a stronghold of conservative morals and values were every child is taught that the gay/bi lifestyle is wrong. If that's where you reside, then I can see why you feel the way you do.

I'd prefer to be optimistic. I'd do think there's a small segment of the straight, college-age population - both male and female - that does experiment and enjoy it. And though a huge percentage of young people may not participate in this type of behavior, from what I'm hearing, they don't condemn it either. And as far as the guys on CF go, whether gay or straight, they don't seem to be concerned at all about the repercussions of appearing on a gay porn site.

If your theory of 100% gayness is correct, then basically, you're saying that only gay men are capable of being open-minded enough to have gay sex on camera. In my opinion, anyone who is open-minded enough to have sex on camera is open-minded enough not to worry about what kind of sex it is. So, I for one, will not be putting any money on your 100% theory.

 

[dav242]

hasn't this already been argued 5,000 times before on these boards?
gribbles and phunk - i appreciate your pov's - but i'd venture to say that you're in the minority on this here gay forum with your opinions.

why do i think alot of gay men disagree with you guys? it goes back to clooneyesque's point about how easily these guys dismiss what they do in front of the camera as "just for fun" or "just for money" or "experimentation" when we - or most of us, at least (i guess not you or phunk) - have struggled with our sexuality and coming to terms with it:

...to suddenly see some "straight" guy, who for all you know might have been one of the queer bashers in high school come along and say "I can have sex with a guy and it doesn't mean a thing so fuck you", well, that just fucking hurts. In a way it feels like just another form of gay bashing.

at this point, i don't really care what they are anymore because it's clear enough in my mind that they appreciate sex with men, but what i take issue with is the implications of your relentless defense of the CF boys' heterosexuality.

they can call themselves 100% straight, sure fine. but, for me, actions always speak louder than words. and the actions of CF boys, for me - no matter what you say - will always speak louder than the CF company's brainwashing, money-making "str8 boy" rhetoric to get gay men to subscribe to their site.

comrad made a great point about the fratmen site as a point of comparison.

the boys on fratmen (at least those who don't "cross over" to sex sites like RB, CF, etc) never touch each other. they never kiss each other. they watch straight porn to get off. and, though this is never a dealbreaker, they do act like the typical str8 boy jock i knew in high school.

when i feel like getting off to str8 men, i'll pull up one of my old fratmen downloads.
when i want to see gay sex, i'll watch CF.

the point here being:

1) if the CF boys were 100% straight and needed the money, they could've just gone to fratmen, where they wouldn't have had to suck cock or fuck boy butt and could've kept up the straight act. alot of straight boys do the fratmen thing for money.
2) they chose NOT to go to fratmen, but instead chose to work for a site where they'd have to touch, suck, eat, kiss boy parts.
3) therefore, these boys cannot be 100% straight or just in it "for the money."

it's simple modus tollens

but, that's a point that we've all argued since the creation of CF. nothing new.

so, let's assume that you and phunk are right. let's assume that people are not defined by their actions as much as their words. as long as i say i'm straight and 10 years down the road, fuck a girl, then i'm straight.

so here are the implications of your argument:

1) "converted" gay men who have gotten married to women to avoid the discrimination and the superficial lifestyle that the majority of self-professed gay men experience would be, by your standards, straight because they are now married to women and have proclaimed themselves to be straight.

i know a few people like this - two guys in particular. they're still pretty flamboyant, and - even up to now, i've caught them checking out other guys.

but, fortunately, these "reformed" gays are - by your standards - 100% straight.

you have, in essence, forgiven those who have hated themselves for being gay.

2) gay priests who've abused young boys are not gay. sure they were pedophiles at one point their lives. sure, they get rock hard looking at little boys. but, the church forgave a few of them and i'm sure put them through their own brand of "conversion therapy" and are now normal, celibate men of the cloth, once again.

besides, gribbles might argue, hey these priests - they were just "experimenting," like the CF guys with other men. we can't blame them for that. they haven't had sex in years, and - like teengers - were simply acting out of experimentation.

by your standards, these formerly homosexual pedophile priests would not be gay.

there is a forgiving aspect to what you guys say - namely, that these CF boys shouldn't be held accountable for their sex acts with men because
1) they're doing it for money
2) they're just experimenting

but, what i wonder is, how can you guys be so forgiving?

why do you defend these boys so much, despite so much hard (no pun intended) evidence suggesting otherwise, that we'll have for years and years to come (again, no pun intended).

phunk - i know you once mentioned that these CF boys provided you with a different version of gay men - an athletic, jockish type - one that you would have identified with in high school.

but, you go on the record to say that these guys aren't gay at all - just because they say they aren't gay on their myspaces or whatever.

well - you and i have both seen what they've done in the bedroom. you and i both know that they are comfortable - VERY comfortable - kissing guys, being affectionate with guys, sucking cock, and ejaculating on a boy's face.

(by contrast, the fratmen never engage in acts like that. so if you were arguing that the fratmen were straight, i'd believe you.)

the big problem is that when these CF men engage in gay acts then proclaim they're not gay, the implication is that gay is gross, gay is wrong. "naw, i'm not gay. i'm straight. i'm... 'normal.'"

and you and gribbles allow that. and support that.

i just wonder how guys like you and gribbles can defend these CF boys so strongly, especially when such defense implies that they agree that gay is abnormal, gay is wrong, that when you have sex with a man on film, you're not actually "deviant," you're just "experimenting and making money." what a great excuse.

listen, if you once saw these boys as providing you with an alternative version of gay, then you must've at one point believed these boys were gay. and i'm guessing that until you started doing research on them and looking at their self-hating myspaces where they assert their heterosexuality and assert their "normalcy," you probably would've agreed with the rest of us that these boys were gay based on their choices thus far.

in the end, no, it doesn't matter what these boys choose to be. they can live their lives in whatever way and with whatever "labels" they choose.

the problem is when their labels are inconsistent with their actions.

at least have the balls to back up what you say.

if they choose to be straight, then they should go make money being straight and doing straight porn. don't go fronting as gay men. because no self-respecting rational guy likes being made to look like a fool.

 

[gribbles]

Dav --

Yes, it has been argued countless times. And usually we go along quite well here, but UWSMike always enjoys stirring the pot and Phunk and I usually have to defend our views, which aren't always way out in left field.

First of all, I don't believe ALL the guys on CF are straight. What I have a problem with is the attitude that we have to put a label on them at all. And that by not having a label on each and everyone of them, that that lessens the enjoyment of the site. If you're asking me to label them, I'd say most of them enjoy both men and women. A number are gay and the smallest number are straight. That's my take on it, but in the end, I'm saying that the only people who really know for sure are those guys themselves. We can't attach a label to them simply from what we've seen on screen. Behavior does not always signify sexuality. I do agree with Phunk on this one. Not ALWAYS. Not 100% of the time. Maybe 95% of the time, but NOT 100% of the time. Maybe 35% of the time, but NOT 100%.

Many people have struggled with their sexuality, I agree. But that doesn't mean we should be angry with a bunch of guys who make porn for a living. There's a market for what CF puts out there and people are buying. Be angry with all those people who are buying it if you need to be angry. They're the ones who are keeping CF in business and perpetuating this awfulness that we continue to discuss. And yes, you can be angry with me, because I subscribe (although lately, I've been seriously questioning why). As for Clooneyesque's feelings about this being a silent form of gay bashing, I can understand those feelings. But my guess is that they don't come entirely from CF, but from a real life experience with some asshole?

And who says that these guys even need to be forgiven for what they do? They're consenting adults. They do what they do because they want to do it and they get paid and I don't have a problem with that. BTW, I'm also for legalized prostitution. What consenting adults want to do with other consenting adults is their own business.

I won't address the whole pedophile/priest thing because that doesn't fit in a discussion of sexual experimentation. And if that's what you got from what I'm writing, then I've obviously stated my opinions poorly or you've misinterpreted them.

If you believe these guys are 100% gay, take a look at the ACS site and you can see them having sex with women. They seem to be enjoying themselves just as much as they do with men! Are they straight for pay??? From what I've read on JUB, there isn't any guy who considers himself 100% gay who would ever be able to get it up for a woman. This is one thing that always seems to be ignored in any discussion of the sexuality of the CF guys. That most of them are banging women regularly over on the other site.

My opinion is that anyone who has sex with guys AND girls, is probably not 100% gay, whether it be Dawson, Lucas or my mailman. That's it. Very simple. And if my mailman says he's bi, that means he likes to experiment with BOTH guys and girls. Which was the whole jist of the post about experimentation . That it's no longer just gay or straight anymore. That lots of people have plopped down in the middle and are staying for awhile and a lot of other people seem to be okay with that. And when these people do choose to go with one sex or the other, I completely respect the label that they attach to themselves. Because, again, my opinion is that is the only person who knows what's in their heart or their mind regarding their sexuality is that individual, not a bunch of opinionated guys watching porn on Windows Media Player.

I know the attitudes and the anger directed at bis on this site. I've read a lot of postings over on the bi forum and I understand that personal opinions and feelings get mixed up in this discussion of the sexuality of these CF guys. Why it's only the CF guys, I'll never know. No one give a shit about any other site, even if they're selling the whole straight guy angle. But this group of guys seems to push the buttons of a lot of guys who post on JUB.

And as for people whose labels don't match up to their actions. I call them members of the human race. Nobody in this world is exactly who they think they are or who they say they are, male, female, old, young, gay, straight. And these guys aren't any different. If they're denying their homosexuality, then that's their problem, and not one I'm going to worry over. But I get the feeling that these guys are placeholders for every so-called straight guy who has broken a gay guy's heart. And that we argue over them so vehemently because we want to believe that we can figure this all out and make sense of it . It doesn't make sense. Human sexuality will never make sense and individuals will continue to behave outside the norm. And this isn't even human sexulaity --- it's porn. And what's on screen is entertainment. But it's interesting to discuss.

I've never believed that gay is wrong or abnormal. Or that anyone should be ashamed of who they are. But I don't know you and if you tell me that you're gay, I'm going to respect what you've told me. No questions asked. If I ever met one of these CF guys in person and they told me they were straight, then I'd respect that. Call me a fool, but that's kind of how I operate. But again, what they say and do ON SCREEN can't be judged as 100% truth because they're playing a role. It may be true, it may not. And you won't get me to say with 100% certainty that I know.

I'll respond to posts if people don't really get what I'm trying to say. And that's why this argument continues. I'm just not a person who believes in absolutes -- never have been, never will. And I'm far too wordy, so if you made it to the end of this post, then you must be interested in hearing other people's opinions. Which I am, too.

 

[PhunkSpunk]

Oh, I'm sure your mother and grandmother was up on the "True Confessions" gossip rumors that Rock was queer, probably every movie star fan was back then - it was quite notorious.

I'll ask mom, but don't think 'True Confessions' made it in to the core curriculum reading list at Barnard. Grams was partial to Austen and James. Apparently she preferred the Herald to the Times.

I think the only people who were surprised by Rock Hudson's AIDS were the Reagans.

What I don't understand is your insistence about knowing whether a certain performer is straight or not, and why is it so important in the first place. I also feel a bit of condescension in this attitude of "oh, I once thought they were really gay, too, but of course now I'm so much wiser than that." Which in effect means so much wiser than those of us who don't share your point of view.

I'm sorry, I just don't think most of them are gay. Meretricious, for sure, but gay no. A straight guy doing gay porn is really like prostitution: the first few times are humiliating, but in time the cash flow takes care of that. 'Dawson' buys himself that Beemer he could only dream of back when he was studying business in Ioway, and suddenly sucking a few dicks seems like a pretty small price to pay.

I suppose my appreciation for the flexible nature of human sexuality has been enhanced. There are guys out there that aren't as cursed with cicumspection as I am: they are perfectly content to allow their left and right hands to be independent contractors.

I no longer think that sucking a dick, or even taking it up the butt and even kinda enjoying it necessarily makes a guy a homo -- at least not when there's money on the line.

 

[pisces_ken02]

I no longer think that sucking a dick, or even taking it up the butt and even kinda enjoying it necessarily makes a guy a homo -- at least not when there's money on the line.

Phunkspunk you need to face the real world. The stuff you are stating would make people laugh, and they will probably think you are insane. In fact I think you are.