Christian vs. Catholic

[sparky95]

Is it true that many of the Fundamentalist Protestant Churches regard Catholicism as not being christian? If so do they regard it as pagan or what?

 

[Nonimus]

Not just fundamentalist, Wesley the founder of the Methodist church also believed it was a pagan church and was until lately known as 'the Pagan church'

 

[bludevl32]

Indeed! TRUE Xtians believe that the "Papists" (along with all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc) are going to hell.

 

[dman9924]

Indeed! TRUE Xtians believe that the "Papists" (along with all Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc) are going to hell.

I was raised in an evangelical Wesleyan church but was not led to believe that Catholics were going to hell. I do not agree with some of their practices, but the same is true for some other Protestant churches. Maybe its just me, but I am more open minded than that.

 

[buzzj]

Maybe its just me, but I am more open minded than that.

I wish all of us were!

 

[maltese]

Is it true that many of the Fundamentalist Protestant Churches regard Catholicism as not being christian? If so do they regard it as pagan or what?

The Roman Catholic Church at the time of the reformation was not a perfect organization, to say the least... and a number of the practices that were objected to by the original Protestant groups are no longer approved of by the Church. I think the vocubulary differences that you get into are less as in 'not Christian' and more into 'fallen into error'. Please don't take offence if you're Catholic, I'm trying to use historical wording there. The point of the original reformers was not that it was not 'Christian' in that it didn't profess to follow the teachings of Christ, but rather that have added to those teachings to the point that the saving message of Christ had been obscured.

Remember, at the time of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc... the battles over theological differences were played out in the political and military sphere as well. Nothing like a few excommunications, death sentences, armies, and invasions to escalate a religious disagreement into cries of 'Papist!' and 'Heretic!'.

In more recent history, most of the Protestant denominations, and even some of the fundamentalist (very hard to define that term, btw...) ones, have begun to recognize more shared ground than differences with the Roman Catholic Church.

There are still some significant distinctions, and lingering distrust from a few centuries of political opposition. (Founding a Catholic church in the south of the US is still probably easier than founding a Baptist one in Rome.) But I'd say the cry of 'not even Christian' directed from Protestants to Catholics is largely a thing of the past.

 

[kevin23]

All denomations have slight to major differences. And don't assume that all Churches with the same name have the same beliefs and practices, fundamental or otherwise. They are as individual as pepople. The big'ee between most protestant and Catholic Churches is that Catholic's ask the Priest for forgiveness ( so I'm told) and pray to Mary as well as God. The Protestant Churches pray to God /Jesus and ask his forgiveness, leaving out the middleman. But I have never heard Catholic's described as pagen. My grandparents were pretty hard on the Catholic's, but most of that has passed, with the exception of the Priest sex abuse deal. Trivia, I read a book about John Wesley and his brother who founded the Methodist Church, yet neither ever joined. They both remained ministers and memebers of the Church of England or what is the Episcopal Church in America until their deaths.
There is only one Catholic Church in the entire county I live in and I have one Catholic friend, so I'm not an expert on this.

 

[bludevl32]

Sorry if my smartass remark above offended anybody, but I was just trying to make a point. Depending on who you ask, EVERYBODY else is going to hell.

IMHO, the Catholic Church has created FAR more misery than almost any other entity in history, and all for the sake of proving that it was THE religion, or to preserve its own power. For me, religion is not about a relationship with a Creator, but the use and maintenance of those in power to control people.

Protestants work in much the same way, I think, but without the fancy dresses and Prada shoes.

 

[Kulindahr]

The main difference between Rome and the actual Protestants is that Rome could not accept the message of scripture that a man is saved by grace alone and faith alone... but the root difference, which lies behind that, is that Rome elevated Aristotelian philosophy and made it the mold through which scripture must be interpreted -- and the definition of "grace" which that gave Rome wouldn't allow them to accept "grace alone", or faith alone... so to an extent the arguments over grace and faith were a case of people talking past each other. Unfortunately, they apparently always will, since at least one Pope has declared that the thought of the Roman church is and will remain Aristotelian.

 

[Kulindahr]

Kevin 23, you share some common misinformation about Catholics.

Roman Catholics do not actually pray to Mary or any other saints; that's a misconception perpetuated by some fundamentalists who are closer to the Pharisees than to Christ. They ask Mary and the other saints to "pray for me" or "pray for us", which is no different than me asking nonimus or funkmejunk to pray for me, except that Mary and those others are already dead, and being in eternity rather than time supposedly actually are able to pray for the millions who ask them to.

The objection to a priest granting absolution (forgiveness) is a hollow one, since Jesus told the disciples "whoever's sins you forgive" on earth, they're forgiven in heaven -- that's an assignment of authority that a lot of Christians conveniently overlook. Most Christians through most of history have viewed that authority as having been passed on to priests (or whoever) -- in fact, one way of distinguishing between a catholic (broadly speaking) and a non-catholic church is whether they have priests who can pronounce forgiveness of sins. Those who do are merely taking seriously those words of Christ to the disciples/apostles.

 

[mikel_meekle]

My question is, how can a Protestant say that Catholics aren't Chrisitian? Before there were Protestants, Lutherns, Methodists, etc., the only to be Christian was being a Roman Catholic.

I agree with everyone else though, Catholicism is and never will be perfect(being raised as a RC I definitely know) but you can't say that a Catholic isn't a Christian.

 

[Apollo]

OY, when will some American fundamentalist religions realize that while Jesus might not have lived in Capri, he was at least of Roman times - let alone regard the rest of historical Christianity (clue: it didn't all start in a tent in 1922)

Dont forget their are other countries in the world now. And lets not blame america alone. Thats the problem with people. They blame everything, and everything religious on America. Lets not forget we have Rome to. And in every country EVERY(including buddhists) have their fundamentalists. Sure they have a considerable amount of power in America. But they do in other EUROPEAN countries as well.

Sick and tired of AMERICA being the one to blame for your problems.

 

[Kulindahr]

My question is, how can a Protestant say that Catholics aren't Chrisitian? Before there were Protestants, Lutherns, Methodists, etc., the only to be Christian was being a Roman Catholic.

I agree with everyone else though, Catholicism is and never will be perfect(being raised as a RC I definitely know) but you can't say that a Catholic isn't a Christian.

Before Protestants, being Roman Catholic was NOT the only way to be a Chrtistian -- there was the East, the cradle of Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox are still around, too -- the only ones, actually, who go all the way back to the start.

The claims that R Catholics aren't Christians was NEVER advanced by the actual Protestants, but rather by the radicals who were (and remain) far more like the Rome they denounced than like New Testament and early church Christianity. The real Protestants recognized that the only basis for accusing others of not being Christian is if they deny the actual Christ sent by God -- thus Arians and others were not Christians because they invented a new Jesus, the same as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have done today. Catholics cling to the true Savior, and thus are Christians.

 

[Kulindahr]

Well, since (American Southern Baptists are at the head of the pack in regarding Catholics as "non Christians", I would defend my right to assert that much stems from a certain American tent-revival mentality about Jeeeez-US.

I'm constantly amused by the common Baptist position that Catholics aren't Christians. The foundation of the Baptist position is that every person is his or her own interpreter of the Bible... so if they're consistent, EVERYONE who claims a position from the Bible is a Christian, whether Roman Catholic, Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Scientist, Jehovah's Witness, or whatever. The term "Baptist theology" is a contradiction in terms, since there's no core except that everyone is his or her own theologian.

 

[cwtiffin]

To say that a Catholic cannot be a Christian is totally absurd... I believe we will be quite astonished at how many Catholics make it into heaven & how many Protestants do not... having been raised & schooled Catholic, I can tell you that they provide one with a lot of baggage that is not found in the Word... after discovering that they were more interested in people following Church doctrine than the truth in the Word, I left... through the years I have rubbed elbows with many who still follow the Catholic faith & the one thing I have discovered is that the Church has become their salvation & not Christ... that is not to say that they don't believe in Jesus... they are just caught up with following the dictates of the Church...

 

[Kulindahr]

i dont think protestants today have any idea how much the Roman Catholic Church has "reformed" itself since the 16th century, especially since Vatican II and the implentation of the New Order.

Maybe if protestants picked up a copy of the new Catechism, they would learn what Catholics really believe. ironically, Roman Catholicism teaches that all people of all faiths, wether Jew, Protestant, Muslim, Hindu or Catholic have the potential to go to heaven; however, the graces given to Catholics by God bring a special closeness to Him.

I guess the biggest difference is we dont teach hate or intolerance.

Really?
You mean they ended the Inquisition?

I hung out at the Newman Center (R Catholic campus ministry) at OSU a lot, and ran into people who made it seem the church was still about back at the council that declared the Pope infallible, and some seemed to wish the Inquisition was still around.
But yeah, there's been a lot of change, and some people won't believe it. I argued with a dude into the "Chick Ministries" thing, which specializes practically in anti-Catholic tracts, and kept giving him quotes from the new Catechism, but he refused to pay any attention to it.

 

[Kulindahr]

OK, now some things will never change among them:

1. Papal infallibility (infallibility doesnt mean he is right about everything he says, for more info check the Catechism)
2. Celibacy among the priesthood and religious ('aint gonna change).
3. birth control (the church will never accept it because it violates the natual order).
4. abortion (see #3)
5. homosexuality (see #3)
6. ANY sexual act that does NOT result in reproduction (see #3).

The church has already apologized for its prior bad acts.

Also, as Catholics we are bound to exercise fraternal correction to those who need it.

1. I know; the infallibility is so tightly defined it's only been done like three times, I think. It's still silly. To me, that's one of the things that makes the Roman church a sect.

2. Celibacy has always to me seemed contrary to scripture. Paul says it's a gift to some, and can't be demanded of anyone else. Since Peter had a wife, how can they restrict mere priests?!

3. I told a group at the Newman Center one night that the Pope was just wrong on that, and in rebellion against God. Talk about getting attention! See, the church bases its position on the "be fruitful and multiply" bit -- but God told ALL the creatures to be fruitful and multiply, so it isn't just us... and then He put a limit on it: "fill the earth." Seems to me we filled it a long time ago, and that's by an easy definition from scripture: the fact that God told all the creatures to be fruitful and multiply. When we got to the point where we were crowding out other species, the earth was "filled", and it was time to stop increasing the human population. So... the church is in error.

4. Tough call. The issue was argued in the early church, and not settled -- it all hinged on when "life" began, and that wasn't agreed on.

5. Well, we have threads about that, so I won't restated my position here. But considering that it took Rome a good five hundred years for some of the lessons of the Reformation to sink in, I'm not expecting any improvement soon.

6. Yeah, well.....

tough.

 

[FUNKMEJUNK]

Sorry if my smartass remark above offended anybody, but I was just trying to make a point. Depending on who you ask, EVERYBODY else is going to hell.

IMHO, the Catholic Church has created FAR more misery than almost any other entity in history, and all for the sake of proving that it was THE religion, or to preserve its own power. For me, religion is not about a relationship with a Creator, but the use and maintenance of those in power to control people.

Protestants work in much the same way, I think, but without the fancy dresses and Prada shoes.

I agree with you man, God wants a relationship with us not a religion with us. Religion is not of or from God, man made religion. God wants our love and obedience not rituals or repetious prayer.

 

[Kulindahr]

i went to a very large Baptist university in Texas years ago and the problem they had most with Catholicism at that time was the Assumption; i think if the church had left the Assumption alone and not issued an official opinion, most of the hostility to Roman Catholicsm would be moot.

But then i guess there will always be cause for disagreement.

I know a lot of people who are in the same position. Quite a few fundamentalists consider the Assumption a matter of idolatry of the worst sort, and I tend to agree with them. A common play on words I hear even from Lutherans and Orthodox is "The Assumption -- that's quite an assumption", and "The Immaculate Conception... what a conception!"

 

[sparky95]

Thanks for your input guys, I was raise as a VERY liberal Catholic household so we didn't take religion or its doctrines very seriously