Christian vs. Catholic

[cwtiffin]

...and to evangelical churches (you know, those box churches that also have a t.v. show and a minister with blonde highlights).

That was priceless! You are too funny!

 

[mikel_meekle]

Before Protestants, being Roman Catholic was NOT the only way to be a Chrtistian -- there was the East, the cradle of Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox are still around, too -- the only ones, actually, who go all the way back to the start.

The claims that R Catholics aren't Christians was NEVER advanced by the actual Protestants, but rather by the radicals who were (and remain) far more like the Rome they denounced than like New Testament and early church Christianity. The real Protestants recognized that the only basis for accusing others of not being Christian is if they deny the actual Christ sent by God -- thus Arians and others were not Christians because they invented a new Jesus, the same as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses have done today. Catholics cling to the true Savior, and thus are Christians.

Actually, that isn't true. The Eastern Orthodox religion split from The Roman Catholic Church. And I wasn't saying that you could only be Catholic before there were Protestants, I simply said that Catholics were the original Christians

 

[maltese]

Actually, that isn't true. The Eastern Orthodox religion split from The Roman Catholic Church. And I wasn't saying that you could only be Catholic before there were Protestants, I simply said that Catholics were the original Christians

'Friad it would be better characterized as a mutual parting of the ways.

As far as the original, every denomination on earth traces it history back through the branches to the 'original' early church.

The Armenian, Syrian, Chaldean, Coptic, and Ethiopian churches are all also quite ancient, and would take exception to the claims of either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be the 'original' church.

 

[Kulindahr]

Actually, that isn't true. The Eastern Orthodox religion split from The Roman Catholic Church. And I wasn't saying that you could only be Catholic before there were Protestants, I simply said that Catholics were the original Christians

The East never split from anything. Rome asserted a new and novel doctrine, an attempt to turn the church into a monarchy. All the East did was to hold to what had been believed always and everywhere -- which, BTW, was the definition of "catholic".

The original Christians were catholic, as in "one, holy, catholic and apostolic church", but not Catholic. The term with a capital letter didn't come into existence until much later.

 

[Kulindahr]

'Friad it would be better characterized as a mutual parting of the ways.

As far as the original, every denomination on earth traces it history back through the branches to the 'original' early church.

The Armenian, Syrian, Chaldean, Coptic, and Ethiopian churches are all also quite ancient, and would take exception to the claims of either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox claims to be the 'original' church.

True enough, Maltese -- I, um, (just a sec... okay) stand corrected.
<sits back down>

 

[luminum]

A friend of mine in Wyoming lives in a community where everyone practices some kind of Christian religion, the name of which Ic annot recall. But one time he said thata fter the detah of John Paul, he saw a neighbor's kid coloring a coloring book page that depicted John paul burning in Hell.

I was raised Catholic and my father was raised Catholic and attended a Catholic school in hong Kong. He is insistent on the good of the Church because hte brothers who taught at the school really did live a life of piety and poverty, giving up everything just tot each them about Catholicism and proper shcooling. His reasoning is that because these menw ere so good, Catholicism must be good and cannot be tarnished by "a few bad apples". Ina ddition, because Christ tells Peter that he is the rock on which his Church will be founded upon and the Church of Peter is the Catholic Church, my father believes that all other denominations of Christianity have strayed and were led away in some way or another by the Devil.

All of which, I mostly disagree since corruption seems to be the majority in Catholic institutions, and the good are decently outnumbered as wella s the fact that other denominations are just as good and bad as Catholicism.

 

[luminum]

luminum...I agree with most of your accessment of the Roman Catholic Church...but corruption can be found in other Chrisitan churches as well. I feel there's another kind of corruption... "corruption of thought" in the way that all organized Christian churches choose to interpret the scriptures and use these interpretations to condemn others and spread hatred. The Roman Catholic church preaches intolerance...like non Roman Catholics attending a RC Church shouldn't be given Holy Communion....their view on Gays and so on. But, other Christian churches do their share spewing hatred towards Roman Catholics. All Christian churches, regardless of denomination, really need to do some heavy duty reappraising of themselves and have to change their message, because the current dogma of the "CHURCH" is so negative and pious...that if it doesn't change it will, unfortunately, destroy itself.

Oh, no disagreement there. I definitely think that the Roman Catholic Church is not alone in corruption in various ways. Sometimes I feel it's best for people to just be with God on their own.

 

[Kulindahr]

The Roman Catholic church preaches intolerance...like non Roman Catholics attending a RC Church shouldn't be given Holy Communion....their view on Gays and so on. But, other Christian churches do their share spewing hatred towards Roman Catholics. All Christian churches, regardless of denomination, really need to do some heavy duty reappraising of themselves and have to change their message, QUOTE]

The situation with Holy Communion is thatPaul says that unbelievers who eat and drink can damn or harm themselves. As with all traditional liturgical churches who hold to the early Christian practice, their intent is to make sure no unbelievers eat or drink. The trouble is with the traditional belief that only Roman Catholics are Christians.
Officially, Eastern Orthodox Christians can now commune freely at Roman churches. Many R Catholic parishes will give the Sacrament to Christians from Anglican/Episcopal and Lutheran churches as well. The measure is whether the church the people are from actually believes what Jesus said, and don't explain it away, about the Lord's Supper. Thus they won't give communion to any type of Reformed, or Baptists or any other offshoots of the radical reformation.

As for reappraising their message... no kidding.

 

[Irish Queer]

Is it true that many of the Fundamentalist Protestant Churches regard Catholicism as not being christian? If so do they regard it as pagan or what?

Well you have to remember that Protestants are simply a lot and I mean a lot of Slinters from our Church who are simply Protesting at the various problems within the Catholic Church. Although most were ex- communicated I still feel we are the one Church I just cannot wait to we are one again.

Cannot argue witrh the term Pagan Church we do have rituals that are used to assimilate others into the Church but the Protestant Church have this too so pot and ketle come to mind.

 

[thewiz]

Unfortunately many do and probably, in some ways, there was some good history behind them.

Having been born, raised, left, and returned Catholic and studied for some time, I think that the church has had occasion to stray from true teachings at times. However, if you look back at the history of why it had strayed, there was often good reason. Unfortunately, it didn't correct itself and thus a schism was formed.

It is sad that Christians themselves are so divided. I had the occasion to attend a variety of protestant churches and, while always welcomed, found that Catholicism is vastly misunderstood. Unfortunately the most ignorant have often been cradle Catholics that take their faith as something that just "is" like a noun instead of a verb as was intended (in other words, it should be alive and action). These folks often perpetuate the misunderstandings and mistrust of others; I have spent days in conferences trying to explain the difference.

The early church was really lots of churches--each apostle went out and started a church with a little different tweak. The gospel of Thomas was carried forth by his disciples as a testament to his understanding; there were similar divisions. Somehow, all of this began to come together and through church councils, much of "Christian" doctrine came to be. The first schism between east and west was continues to this day. I was amazed when Pope John Paul II and His Holiness Bartholemew (sp?) from the Eastern rite sat down and said the Lord's Prayer. It was missed by most, but this was the first time in nearly a millenium that the two leaders had even dared pray together, much less embrace.

When Luther broke off, one might remember that he was a Catholic priest who just got tired of seeing the man-centered faith rather than spiritual. It probably would have been better had he stayed and followed through on the change that he set in motion; unfortunately he didn't and that schism continues to this day. Once things break, however, it is easier and easier to break again and again. Ever see the First Baptist, Baptist, Temple Baptist, and various others in one city? Same is true for other protestants--they are protesting and make a break over various issues (and I have seen it first hand).

The Catholic faith, interestingly, has been a conversion point for many fundamentalists when the study the early Fathers of the church. If you spend the time to look at the Judiasm roots, the apocraphal books, and the Fathers' writings, you'll find the Catholic Church. Vatican II probably moved the church back more than anything towards the right path.

I think it is the misunderstanding of some that perpetuates the rift between churches and many fundamentalist churches say that all Catholics will be in Hell; only they have the way! I'll bet I see a bunch of them....

 

[Kulindahr]

When Luther broke off, one might remember that he was a Catholic priest who just got tired of seeing the man-centered faith rather than spiritual. It probably would have been better had he stayed and followed through on the change that he set in motion; unfortunately he didn't and that schism continues to this day. Once things break, however, it is easier and easier to break again and again.

Luther never broke off -- he was booted. Till his dying day he kept writing to try to repair the breach. It might have been fixed if the Pope of the time hadn't dissed Luther's call for a real general council, and waited until too too late, to call a restricted council, rigged and tightly controlled. Luther wanted an open council for all who held to the first eight; Rome wanted one that would do as told.

The Catholic faith, interestingly, has been a conversion point for many fundamentalists when the study the early Fathers of the church. If you spend the time to look at the Judiasm roots, the apocraphal books, and the Fathers' writings, you'll find the Catholic Church. Vatican II probably moved the church back more than anything towards the right path.

Not far enough. The Roman church is far too slow to do anything -- one reason Protestants can't stand it. Of course the Radicals (so-called Protestants who aren't actually, but are descended from the Radical Reformation) are too quick to change, and toss about in the lightest of breezes.

I think it is the misunderstanding of some that perpetuates the rift between churches and many fundamentalist churches say that all Catholics will be in Hell; only they have the way! I'll bet I see a bunch of them....

The fundamentalists are offspring of the Radical Reformation, who essentially decided there shouldn't be one Pope telling everyone how it is, so they turned everyone into a pope for his or her self. That, to me, sounds an awful lot like "I will be like GOd...."

 

[chrisglass]

Not just fundamentalist, Wesley the founder of the Methodist church also believed it was a pagan church and was until lately known as 'the Pagan church'

Sorry I only just read this - what is the basis of this statement? Where in John Wesley's writings is this said? I know he had a problem with the authority of the papacy but that was with papal authority not with other aspects of catholicism (see his sermon 'On the Catholic Spirit')

 

[Kulindahr]

Here are a few websites that lay out what catholics truly believe, not the crap thrown around by many evangelicals etc. I'm a cradle catholic and proud of it. The Eastern Orthodox church did indeed split with the catholic church. They split over doctrinal matters etc.

From one perspective they split from each other. Theologically, Rome split from the east, because Rome invented a new doctrine, specifically papal supremacy == and then proceeded to develop more new doctrines over time.
If any church today stands close to the original, it is the east.

 

[Kulindahr]

Looking at who they chose as Pope made me wonder if the Catholic church really is Christian.....
Seems like a giant step -- the wrong way.

 

[leroche]

If we all who follow Christ are Christians, why the differences? If Christ's gospel is LOVE why are we divided by hatred, injustice and pride? If Christ is our source where lies the conflict? Religion cannot save. It's how we live the good teachings of our religion that saves.

 

[Kulindahr]

If we all who follow Christ are Christians, why the differences? If Christ's gospel is LOVE why are we divided by hatred, injustice and pride? If Christ is our source where lies the conflict? Religion cannot save. It's how we live the good teachings of our religion that saves.

It's Christ who saves -- not how we live or anything else.

That happens to be the root of the difference between Rome and the Protestants: Rome says it isn't by grace alone, isn't by faith alone, and thus isn't by Christ alone.

So the Radical Reformation people keep insisting that Roman Catholics aren't Christians.
Actual Protestants have never said that, only that they have a serious problem -- one that borders on not understanding who Jesus is.
OTOH... I wonder sometimes whether the heirs of the Radical Reformation are Christians, the way they pick and choose which if Jesus' words to believe. So... is that just the way it goes?

 

[leroche]

It's Christ who saves -- not how we live or anything else.

Will Christ save you if you do not cooperate with His grace. Faith without good works is dead. We have our share to be saved and to be able to do that needs God's grace.

 

[Kulindahr]

Except the east taught and proglimated heresy (or if not heresy, contridictions) regarding the nature of Christ. While I may be a bad Catholic by ignoring the celibacy part, I still know a lot about my faith.

Excuse me?
With one exception, it was the East that kept Christology on the straight path! The great controversies regarding Jesus were settled in and by the East. I know there was one of the seven ecumenical councils where the pope of Rome was important, but mostly it was the East that did the work that established orthodox teaching on the nature of Christ.

 

[Kulindahr]

To make such a comment on the Catholic Church on a post shows shows you should do a bit thinking on your own. Where it has problems, amost evey church you can poke a stick at is in deep waters.

The Catholoic Church at least has extented an arm to all other Christian sects to try and be a more compassionate; working together to make things come together more as united front.

If you make an outlandish statement have some proof as to why you should be worthy to make such a horrendous statement. Merley making it without validation is a very sorry thing.

Maybe it's the weather....
I keep running into lousy reading comprehension skills today.
Peto, the dude asked a question!!! What's with the assault?

Some denominations DO regard the Catholic church as not Christian, for differing reasons, so it's a reasonable question.

As for the Roman Catholic church extending an arm to all other Christians... that came awfully late. When Martin Luther called for that five centuries ago, Rome's response was to ignore him, wait till he was dead, then hold a rigged council that excluded everyone but the pre-approved (and some of them).

 

[sparky95]

Maybe it's the weather....
I keep running into lousy reading comprehension skills today.
Peto, the dude asked a question!!! What's with the assault?

Some denominations DO regard the Catholic church as not Christian, for differing reasons, so it's a reasonable question.

As for the Roman Catholic church extending an arm to all other Christians... that came awfully late. When Martin Luther called for that five centuries ago, Rome's response was to ignore him, wait till he was dead, then hold a rigged council that excluded everyone but the pre-approved (and some of them).

Thanks Kulindahr!