Citizens and Weapons

[Kulindahr]

The evil is in the most negative aspects of humanity, allowing people to carry guns just makes evil people a greater threat, and you less of an obstacle.
The argument that by you also having a gun creates that obstacle and deterrent is mute, because you don't have a clue when you'll need that gun for protection, and a determined crook will not likely care that you have it.

No, allowing people to carry guns makes the victims more of an obstacle. If you don't think so, try this: you can have a pile of cash, with no strings attached, if you can go into an apartment and take it off the table. In one apartment is a sorority girl doing homework on her laptop, and $100,000; in the other apartment, her twin has $1,000,000 and is doing the same except she has a Ruger revolver in her lap and knows she can shoot you without getting prosecuted.
Which apartment are you going to go for?

And it works: some two million times a year in the U.S., crimes are stopped by citizens with guns. Not knowing when you'll need it is why you always carry it. And in the majority of cases, even an armed crook will decide he has an urgent appointment elsewhere on merely seeing that you're armed -- after all, they're in it for gain, not for risking having their blood leaked onto some stranger's floor.

Here in UK, i don't want to get attacked by a trio with lead pipes or knives for whatever reason, but i appreciate having a higher survival rate after the attack than what i would if they had guns to vent their aggression.

LOL

And nothing at all keeps criminals from having guns except their personal choice -- but you, following the law, are made a victim by your own government.

As I point out repeatedly, just with tools available in the stores in a fair-sized mall, someone who is competent with tools can make a serviceable firearm.

Besides which, even if you're already under attack, being armed can still stop your attackers.

 

[Kulindahr]

If I was beset by weakness in my hand, maybe old age and a lack of dexterity, wouldn't having a gun that I can't point in time and without the strength to pull the trigger incense a burglar or would be robber for the audacity more?

Both finger weakness and instability in holding a defense weapon can be compensated for. There are regular instances of elderly people with limited mobility driving off the threat of a criminal attack, with firearms -- almost invariably much to the astonishment of the bad guy(s).

If one believed having a gun was being safer, but the other guy kills you under so called self defense since you aimed your gun and missed, what have you profited from this illusion of safety?

First, it's no illusion -- otherwise, why do cops carry guns? Can't add to their safety, right?

Second, the bad guy who sticks around after you've fired at him is rare -- unless you cornered him, which is stupid; always give the guy an avenue of escape; after all, your goal isn't to do him harm, but to remove the threat to yourself.

Third, the circumstances under which you missing and the other guy hitting you and being able to claim self-defense are extremely limited -- and the solution is simple: don't miss.

There are plenty of frail and old folks with guns out there. People with a mission to harm you generally will, if they are intent upon it.

Ah -- "people with a mission to harm you". Yes, they'll probably manage to hurt you, regardless, because they aren't going to enter into anything resembling a fair fight. But just how often are there such people? Even people with restraining orders on them due to domestic violence issues generally aren't "intent" on harming someone, they're emotionally driven -- and if you're trained to remain calm and do what is necessary, you've still got a leg up over someone who's emotional.

 

[alfaPA]

LOL

And nothing at all keeps criminals from having guns except their personal choice -- ....

...and why do you suppose that is? LOL <i don't think I've ever used LOL before..





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[Kulindahr]

Seems like I am hearing a load of non-realist rhetoric and political cant.

Some of what is being stated as 'fact' here is more left wing and non

realistic than I (lefty) am.

My non collection type weaponry is for physical not fiscal protection. Try

to rip me off.....we will probably fight... try to hurt me, my family or friends

then, I will use what is necessary to terminate your activity. First drive-by

or whatever best be good..or it may be your last.

Civility is for the civil............ pro cultu civili

This is nicely illustrated by a guy in a case of home invasion who say at the top of the stairs after getting his family up from the main floor, and told the burglars to take anything they wanted, he wouldn't bother them so long as they didn't pose a threat to his family. After a couple of times reminding one of them not to come up the stairs, the bad guy pulled out his gun and said, "Time to die", and started up the steps.
The homeowner sighed and said, "If that's the way you want it", and proceeded to shoot the bad guy, and then his two compatriots, dead.


BTW, that's a nice Latin citation. It demonstrates that civilization had recognized the inherent right to keep and bear arms for a very long time.

 

[Kulindahr]

And in the same vein, I could show you Star Wars and prove just as little.

If you didn't see the point, there's little hope for you.

Hint: me and the guy with the two-by-four.

 

[alfaPA]

If you didn't see the point, there's little hope for you.

Hint: me and the guy with the two-by-four.

Or how about Iraq and the weapons of mass destruction? ..Oh wait....



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[Lefty]

Mr. knows and judges all accordingly from outside of Philadelphia....

A large number of people here are bright enough to understand me.
Others are bright enough to use information sources like dictionaries,
thesauruses , encyclopedias or even their thought process to glean an
understanding. You use????

Rattle snakes.......California rattlesnake species include the northern Pacific rattlesnake (in northern California), and the Western Diamondback, Sidewinder, Speckled rattlesnake, Red Diamond rattlesnake, Southern Pacific, Great Basin rattlesnake and the Mojave rattlesnake (all found in Southern California). Though rattlesnakes are dangerous if provoked, they also provide humans with a tremendous service they eat rodents, other reptiles, and insects, and are in turn eaten by other predators. In California where rattlesnakes are found from sea level to the inland prairies and desert areas and to the mountains at elevations of more than 10,000 feet, enjoying the outdoors means learning how to avoid contact with rattlesnakes.

My travels have led me to many places with many kinds of snakes. I did not
say or imply I shot Timber rattlers in California. You ASSumed. As far as my
personal data is concerned...am I to be flattered that you take such an interest
in me...or should I be concerned you are exhibiting stalker tendencies?

Enough of our specious dialogue, I return to the thread interested in what
many people THINK.

Have a lovely evening and week-end.

 

[Kulindahr]

..and this is the point of a democracy?

No, it's the foundation of a democracy: the moment one privileged set of citizens can wield force against any of the rest with impunity, your democracy is on borrowed time.

Had our founding fathers known the reckless abuse and advantage taken by gun manufacturers and sellers and the attitudes of people like you (don’t take this personally), they no doubt would be scrambling for responsible, effective and enforceable way to control and monitor the sale of firearms. And Mr. K, how do you justify anyone having unlimited weapons, especially automatic weapons and ammunition and no accountability? This is effectively what the NRA wants.

No, they'd lament the fact that so few Americans are armed -- and probably lament even more than most of those who are don't understand the need and responsibility for regular training or at least practice.

What "no accountability"? They're more accountable than people with the most deadly weapon in the country.

And no, it isn't "what the NRA wants". I happen to be an Endowment Member of the NRA, and I can assure you that's a lie -- just like most of what is printed about the NRA every time some new sensible law allowing citizens to stop being victims by law gets proposed.

However have I managed to live my life without big burly guys threatening me with two-by-fours

Just don't try to do any public service volunteer conservation work.

Kulindar, Thinking that all gays should carry and flaunt weapons in order to ingratiate us to, and earn us the respect of our nation?

"Ingratiate"?

"Respect"?

WTF do those have to do with anything? I don't care how gay-bashers feel about us, as long as they learn we are not prey.

In concl. You may feel safer when all college kids are required to take their concealed weapons to bars on Saturday night or to national forests, along with their kegs and coolers of beer, but for some of us ― not so much.

If you wouldn't dream up far-fetched fantasy situations, you'd be more credible.

One NRA instructor I had actually played the Johnny Cash song "Leave Your Gun at Home" at one point in the safety course -- the point being that there are places you don't take guns... like bars, or anywhere that alcohol will be in good supply.

And I've rarely met college students who own firearms who were so stupid as to have them out and about when drinking was going on. My policy was once the first beer (in the entire group) had been consumed, firearms got locked away or disabled; most parties where there were guns around were a bit looser (like the moment someone is buzzed), but I've never seen any college students allow guns out and about when beer was flowing.
That's just part of the elitist (and generally cowardly) attitude that portrays anyone who owns firearms as foolish and dangerous, from whom everyone must be protected whether they want it or not.

 

[MoufOfKhaos]

If you didn't see the point, there's little hope for you.

Hint: me and the guy with the two-by-four.

I saw a guy showboating with a weapon versus a guy using one; my point being essentially that I could show the same thing with the sword coming out on the better end.

So, you know, i'm not completely as brain-dead as you'd love to believe.

 

[Kulindahr]

I don't even know where I stand on this issue. I used to be totally contra gun carrying thingy.

Lately I can see why one could need one.

Then again, guns are easily stolen from gun owners and end up in some hoodlum's hands.

They can also end up on a kid's hands.

I don't know. Seriously.

If it's self defense you are worried about, why not pepper spray or a taser or a baseball bat?

I mean, any idiot can carry a gun and do some damage.

Guns are only easily stolen from fools or the incompetent. And properly educated kids won't play with them anyway -- just like they know not to run in front of a train.

Pepper spray is notoriously ineffective on too many people.

A taser actually takes serious training to use.

A baseball bat requires getting into physical contact range with the bad guy, which is mostly bad for your health.

Yes, "any idiot can carry a gun and do some damage" -- which is why they're effective deterrents against crime. Many armed criminals carry a firearm so they can feel powerful -- the appearance of an opposing firearm tends to destroy that, and they run.

 

[Kulindahr]

...and why do you suppose that is? LOL <i don't think I've ever used LOL before..

Economics -- if they don't think they need to invest in greater levels of intimidation, they won't.

 

[alfaPA]

"Ingratiate"?

"Respect"?

WTF do those have to do with anything? I don't care how gay-bashers feel about us, as long as they learn we are not prey.....

One NRA instructor I had actually played the Johnny Cash song "Leave Your Gun at Home" at one point in the safety course -- the point being that there are places you don't take guns... like bars, or anywhere that alcohol will be in good supply.
.....

I wasn't especially thinking about how gay-bashers would view us.

and there's this:

More States Allowing Guns in Bars

Tennessee is one of four states, along with Arizona, Georgia and Virginia, that recently enacted laws explicitly allowing loaded guns in bars. (Eighteen other states allow weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol.) The new measures in Tennessee and the three other states come after two landmark Supreme Court rulings that citizens have an individual right — not just in connection with a well-regulated militia — to keep a loaded handgun for home defense.

Experts say these laws represent the latest wave in the country’s gun debate, as the gun lobby seeks, state by state, to expand the realm of guns in everyday life.

 

[Kulindahr]

I saw a guy showboating with a weapon versus a guy using one; my point being essentially that I could show the same thing with the sword coming out on the better end.

So, you know, i'm not completely as brain-dead as you'd love to believe.

You could film such a thing -- and people with a clue would enjoy the comedy.

Given the distance between Indie and the sword guy, for the sword guy to successfully kill Indie... well, in the time he was getting there, Indie could empty all six chambers, reload, and be ready to shoot again as the dead body landed at his feet (if it even got that far).

The guy coming after me with the two-by-four dropped it and left because while he may not have been consciously thinking that, he knew it.

 

[alfaPA]

I don't know about you Alfa but that makes me unneasy.

E, I think it's pretty clear how I feel about guns in bars.... not


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[Kulindahr]

Fools and the incompetent's hands are exactly where the guns end up. Look at the crime rates.

Crime rate is a lying statistic on this -- look at the gun ownership rate v. the number stolen.

There have been years where more guns taken from criminals had come from the police than were stolen from citizens (someplace had an incredible scandal where the cops auctioned off their old guns and failed to do background checks!
I've never seen such scathing NRA mail as on that topic).

Based on? Statistics?

Expert testimony from a police training officer at a televised trial -- I have no clue what trial it was; I was just interested in the weapons testimony.

But I would never use pepper spray, because it's necessary to let the bad guy get too close.

So does a gun.

Not nearly as much. Cops get several hours of training to use a taser. I could teach you effective self-defense with a handgun in about half an hour.

And they could come at you from behind or when you aren't looking even if you have a gun. The bad guy is going to do damage and doesn't care how or the means. He's not in the right state of mind.

"Could". This is an unlikely scenario. Looking at unlikely scenarios is not a practical way to examine the utility of something, unless you expect perfection.

Question: Have you ever had to use your gun in self defense?

"Use", as in "fire", no. But show -- yes. And for someone else's protection -- draw, yes.

 

[JayHawk]

But the point is that if you had a firearm, a guy with a knife would leave you alone (except in cases of drugs, where all bets are off).

A talented knife fighter will finish a gun armed victim or threat first every time inside of 25 feet. I carry a knife more often as it easily goes into more places than a gun.

My favorite? Spyderco Para Military Black (Only available to COPS and MIL due to length)

In my pocket everyday of my life just like my grandfather taught me. Except of course when I am required to fly commercial... 9/11 really screwed my ability to stay protected in on a commercial carrier. I used to be able to get my money clip (CRKT KISS) onto any plane as long as it was holding a wad of cash.

Dont get me wrong I am huge proponent of concealed carry and more so of open carry. Love my MP40 and will always have a weapon. Just saying that I wouldn't assume you are safe 100% of the time simply because your carrying.

Love the MP40...and it is a perfect carry weapon with solid stopping power and little recoil so even the smallest guy or gal can effectively employ it for defense.

Learn to defend yourself people. It is the best thing you will ever do for enjoying your life.

 

[Kulindahr]

I wasn't especially thinking about how gay-bashers would view us.

They're mostly the ones an armed gay should think about -- the rest are irrelevant.

and there's this:

More States Allowing Guns in Bars

Tennessee is one of four states, along with Arizona, Georgia and Virginia, that recently enacted laws explicitly allowing loaded guns in bars. (Eighteen other states allow weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol.) The new measures in Tennessee and the three other states come after two landmark Supreme Court rulings that citizens have an individual right — not just in connection with a well-regulated militia — to keep a loaded handgun for home defense.

Experts say these laws represent the latest wave in the country’s gun debate, as the gun lobby seeks, state by state, to expand the realm of guns in everyday life.

That's freaky. I haven't written enough letters on the idiocy of that.

But the ones I have written point out that even a lot of "old West" saloons didn't allow firearms inside; you checked them at the door. Frak, I don't let myself carry for my own defense after one drink!

Restaurants is not so bad... bars is looney.

The only way I'd go for firearms in bars is...

• every armed person has to identify himself as such to the bartender
• the bar can require armed persons to carry liability insurance against misuse or accidental discharge of a firearm
• the bar can require anyone wishing to carry a firearm on the premises to have completed a safety and training course specific to the dangers of firearms and alcohol in social situations
• the bartender is permitted to keep a 12-gauge shotgun under the bar for dispelling problems
• persons bearing firearms may be limited to two drinks per hour by the management

That kind of covers it.

 

[Kulindahr]

It's pretty insulting to compare my comment to some idiot tea party douche bags who made ignorant comments about an individual who wouldn't be able to afford healthcare.

I never said gun owners are stupid, should die, shouldn't be allowed to own one. I just find most reasons questionable. Not everyone will be in the situation you were in. That's great that it worked out for you in that unfortunate situation, but it's not an everyday occurrence for everyone who claims that they 'need' one for protection.

My comment wasn't directed at anyone personally, as you've decided to take it. So don't insult me.

You missed the point.

It isn't an everyday occurrence for a 30-y.o. to be in a coma, either -- but sensible ones carry insurance, anyway.

The people who get in situations like I was and aren't armed are called "victims". The others are called "alive and well". So long as there is a society that produces victims, then EVERY citizen needs to provide protection against being one.

 

[Kulindahr]

Poetic justice.

Sweet, baby, sweet.

In an interview, the guy said he would literally have let them take every last thing from the main floor -- but the moment they appeared to be a threat to his family, that was it.

The amazing thing to me was that they had been hauling stuff out and he hadn't bothered them, and one was too dumb to accept a good thing when they'd found it.

 

[Kulindahr]

Thanks for replying.

Although I don't quite agree with you, I know that you truly believe in this. I don't think anything I can say will change your mind.

Considering that I know a gal who was saved from rape by being armed, and I've been saved from assault -- not likely.