Op-Ed Civility in American Politics - the ghost in the machine.

[chance1]

Who made you the arbiter of public discourse. You are NOT the conscience of this place. Your leaps at times just don't make sense. Instead of annhialating someone on the substance, you run in, cry foul, insult people, yell about how badly you have been treated, run away.

And you know what?

Its a year later and it's like it was just yersterday I had read your posts. It's all the same stuff. You pull a nutty, and throw a tantrum if something is being discussed that you don't want discussed OR that you think you can't win.

You operate under the strange illusion that to be correct, you need to gain the most people to agree with you. That ain't it. yelling the loudest does not make the room listen.

John Fitzgerald Kennedy took a stand against his own party, the dems, who were engaged in "separate but equal" legislation.

Kennedy is considered great not because he fought and beat the other side. His greatness was in challenging his own party, and dramatically shifting the party composition. All the Dixiecrats went over to the GOP side, and the southern strategy was born less than a decade later. The root of GOP strength now resides there because people didn't like black folks. It was the reason they clung together, and they haven't really changed.

That manifested and came home to roost within the GOP when Obama was elected, and the GOP and the right became RABID for the last four years. When you lay down with dogs you get up with fleas. The GOP has fleas right now, and yelling at the person pointing to them wont make the fleas go away.

Now here's the deal.

Good politics isn't about following the herd and pouting when the group disagrees with you. Thats what voters do. Politicians fight for their ideals in america. We are a republic. Our government is representative. Referendum votes were intentionally skipped, and they did that because of ideas that went as far back as the mayflower pact.

The american democracy is built to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. You want to know how they leveled the field? Freedom of speech. You can talk just as loudly as the other guy, and when your arguments are convincing to people, you win the debate.

When your arguments are always about the personalities involved, people perceive a shrill operator, and they roll their eyes and mentally click the ignore button.

everytime you have one of these "its not fair" meltdowns, you make your point unseemly to the reader. For wahtever reason, be it style of writing or method of approach, I promise you, the content of your idea is not why people reject your opinions.

it's the way you present yourself when you express them. You vaccilate so wildly that no one even dares support you, cause when someone is stomping up and down in a pile of crap, people back away so nuttin gets splashed on THEM.

Serve yourself and your ideas more effectively. Aim at the Idea and do it with that Reagan eye twinkle.

THEN you will get the centrists here, most of whom you have alienated, to take your ideas and your points seriously. Find your passion, and get rid of the anger and fear. People smell that, and to them it wreaks of a desperate man.

You're going to take another shot at me personally for posting this, but it won't change the fact that when you do people will be repulsed by the way you acted and ignore the content of what you are trying to convey.

Your opponents know that. Is it baiting? no. Its knowing where your weakness is and getting you to assist them. When you go balls to the walls victim, people know that they landed a punch on you and that you felt it. Politicians cannot have a glass chin.

It's why you have lost the argument in this thread and so many others as you alienated virtually everyone, even the guys in charge that could have assisted you. That is why your ideas and why Romney is so unpopular.

Do us and yourself a favor. Dump the victim crap, and the 85 crap, and all the rest. Find a way to prove the person wrong with facts, presented with passion.

What you're doing now? It's not working for you. It's harming more than helping your cause.

you're not on the short list of people i will seek advice from

good intellect u clearly have

why u disappeared for a year i could care less

before u disappeared u called me a racist - and u never apologized - so u have no cred or standing with me

and YOU bringing up ted kennedy recently as some kind of hero then crying when others (2) suggested otherwise well that's all u need to know about u

the next time u say "i was wrong" or "i apologize" will be the first time

as for posting style/habits/substance/conscience ...... to each his own

i'm no victim - you and the zombies are - as new thoughts cannot enter a partisan infected brain

the "baseline" for reasonable thought/position for the 85 is liberal - anything to the right of liberal = insert bad name

that's not the real world fortunately

so please understand the difference

- - - Updated - - -

Here's the official card for the perpetual victims of liberal abuse.

Canada needs you

 

[BostonPirate]

thank you

You could not help yourself from proving my point.

With that, I think this thread is getting redundant.

On to current events.

The GOP is falling apart, litteraly, fracturing as we speak. I find that more interesting and fun.

thanks to Tx Beau, for a thought provoking thread.

 

[Sausy]

Change the last sentence bp to "provoking" thread,and you'd be right as usual. Give me chance, or even better stardreamer, any time to the likes of the self righteous lefties(and converted "independents")


Thought usually absence makes the heart grow fonder.... not applicable here.

I don't find the GOP'S implosion (and I am a registered Democrat) amusing OR fun. Neither do I care for the ALWAYS to be counted on smugness of much of the progressive faction here or elsewhere. Who appointed you arbiter of the currency of threads? It's thought provoking ONLY if you subscribe to the thoughts of the article's writer and his flunkies here. it's a two way street and you have only ONE side of the issue.

You know what would be amusing? Seeing the unhinged banshee screaming of the left if Romney pulls it out. THAT would be SHEER ENTERTAINMENT! ( I say SOMEWHAT sarcastically,just SOMEWHAT)

I'm not on the right or the left....I told someone I know from here who ACTUALLY is a gentlemen that put me in a room with all right wingers, I'd make their heads spin and running for the exits. Same with the left here. I don't carry ANYONE's water, but you substitute the snobbery and arrogance that they alone know what's good for America on the left for the know nothing bigotry on the right....well the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[TX-Beau]

UH, when you walk into thread labeled OP-ED

What precisely are you expecting to find?

When you post on a gay forum, why do people start crying that most of the guys aren't right wing-nuts.

When you express your opinion, you are not exempt from the fallout.

If the right wingers in here want a few guys who agree, why not go post whereever Go-Proud does?

WHY?

Come on, you pays you money you takes your chances.

Plus your post is extremely smug and condescending so pot, kettle there.

 

[BostonPirate]

Change the last sentence bp to "provoking" thread,and you'd be right as usual. Give me chance, or even better stardreamer, any time to the likes of the self righteous lefties(and converted "independents")


Thought usually absence makes the heart grow fonder.... not applicable here.

I don't find the GOP'S implosion (and I am a registered Democrat) amusing OR fun. Neither do I care for the ALWAYS to be counted on smugness of much of the progressive faction here or elsewhere. Who appointed you arbiter of the currency of threads? It's thought provoking ONLY if you subscribe to the thoughts of the article's writer and his flunkies here. it's a two way street and you have only ONE side of the issue.

You know what would be amusing? Seeing the unhinged banshee screaming of the left if Romney pulls it out. THAT would be SHEER ENTERTAINMENT! ( I say SOMEWHAT sarcastically,just SOMEWHAT)

I'm not on the right or the left....I told someone I know from here who ACTUALLY is a gentlemen that put me in a room with all right wingers, I'd make their heads spin and running for the exits. Same with the left here. I don't carry ANYONE's water, but you substitute the snobbery and arrogance that they alone know what's good for America on the left for the know nothing bigotry on the right....well the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

NO

I only express my views more effectively. I ask for no special treatment other than to have my opinion considered. When have I once told chance you or anyone else to stop talking?

never

What I have done, twice, is share the methods with Chance by which I can easily defeat him in a debate, and yet he persists.

You can believe what you like, that is your right.

The use of free speech is a two way street.

How others respond is a personal choice.

I did not start this thread, I did not conceive of it, I did not participate in Chance and Tx Beau's online relationship that brought it into being. but I have responded in careful thoughtful posts that seek to enlighten people as to my persective, and I have done so with restraint.

I am sorry that you feel the need to resort to the childish evasion of " yeah and you too" in this part of your post....

you substitute the snobbery and arrogance that they alone know what's good for America on the left for the know nothing bigotry on the right

I am a descendant of one of the original american revolutionaries, and the Admins will confirm through my IP addy if you like, that I am sitting in Quincy, Mass, just less than a mile from the home of John Adams. My ancestors were once his neighbors.

I don't need the shelter of others to comfort my opinion. I express my opinion to comfort myself.

 

[Kulindahr]

What I have done, twice, is share the methods with Chance by which I can easily defeat him in a debate, and yet he persists.

When I was in debate, anyone using what Chance puts forth would be disqualified, regardless of how bad the other side's case, so long as the other side proceeded rationally.

 

[chance1]

NO

I only express my views more effectively. I ask for no special treatment other than to have my opinion considered. When have I once told chance you or anyone else to stop talking?

never

What I have done, twice, is share the methods with Chance by which I can easily defeat him in a debate, and yet he persists.

You can believe what you like, that is your right.

The use of free speech is a two way street.

How others respond is a personal choice.

I did not start this thread, I did not conceive of it, I did not participate in Chance and Tx Beau's online relationship that brought it into being. but I have responded in careful thoughtful posts that seek to enlighten people as to my persective, and I have done so with restraint.

I am sorry that you feel the need to resort to the childish evasion of " yeah and you too" in this part of your post....



I am a descendant of one of the original american revolutionaries, and the Admins will confirm through my IP addy if you like, that I am sitting in Quincy, Mass, just less than a mile from the home of John Adams. My ancestors were once his neighbors.

I don't need the shelter of others to comfort my opinion. I express my opinion to comfort myself.

you're just the american version of rareboy

full of ..............

himself

 

[TX-Beau]

*bank shot*

 

[BostonPirate]

you're just the american version of rareboy

full of ..............

himself

In ways you can't even imagine

where is that badge. I will wear it.

If you don't prove that you believe in your own ideas, others wont either.

 

[chance1]

In ways you can't even imagine

where is that badge. I will wear it.

If you don't prove that you believe in your own ideas, others wont either.

dude - you think Teddy Kennedy is a fucking hero and that the NYC shooting recently was terrorism

you're full of ideas .......... that doesn't make them legitimate

it's just a lot of ideas

big diff

carry on

 

[rareboy]

Originally Posted by chance1
you're just the american version of rareboy

full of ..............

himself

In ways you can't even imagine

where is that badge. I will wear it.

If you don't prove that you believe in your own ideas, others wont either.

I am flattered. I count myself in very good company when I am compared to someone who can post erudite and insightful ideas and arguments and make me think and often smile.

 

[ReadyWithReadyWit]

it doesn't matter if i agree with Ben - that's not the issue - for you and others it's all or nothing - he feels immigration is a major problem - he then gets attacked that it's a racial/ethnic thing - you (not you) call him a racist, etc.

the issue is this thread is specifically designed to attack a group or one person under the guise of civility

the issue is that the moderators are frauds along with the author of the thread in enabling such a display

it's that simple - most things are not that simple - but this is

I find it laughable that a group - a large group - gets so incited by a handful at most - a single person perhaps - for having views that don't jive with theirs

the playbook is a sheet of paper - demonize, insult, try to marginalize - then repeat

what's the point of this thread?

you're a reasonable person - that's obvious - and I appreciate your posting a great deal

I am not "incited" by opposing views; I am incited by vehement views that are supported by lazy, thoughtless logic. However, I am more than willing to admit that tearing down a argument is easier than coming up with a defendable one of my own. Still, when I do attempt to establish an argument, I am comfident that I am thick-skinned enough to handle the criticism (even if it is laced with a few choice phrases)... that is how we learn. I do realize that these forums are not friendly waters for the right; it's views are often placed at a higher level of scrutiny simply because of the numbers game, but that comes with the territory. It does not mean all of us liberals are "zombies" incapable of conceding anything to the other side- it means you are on a gay forum.

As for me throwing out the "R-Word", I will attempt to do this less as I do tend to have a bit of a quick trigger. But, I only have so much restraint and "if something looks like a duck and quacks like a duck", may "God" help me with what to call it. My point was that if you read the following excerpt to a set of reasonably educated historians and asked them, "If you had to attribute this rhetoric to any group, what would that group be?"

There is a large group of Americans who no longer consider themselves to be part if a minority. They share a common culture with slight variations, similar values and goals. The have ancestries of course from other countries but probably a mixture of ancestries, so they do not think of German, or Irish, or English or Welsh as being a separate group with a separate language, culture or community. Unfortunately, there is no recognized name for the group but they are a majority and they are assimilated into a common culture and community. The melting pot. E Pluribus Unum-from many one. This was the common goal before the counter culture of the 60'.

I have a suspicion that are likely to come up with something a tad more extreme than "Republican".

Furthermore, I maintain that a segment of this thread had morphed into something substantive. However, I will admit that it has now likely devolved back into pointlessness.

 

[Rolyo85]

Chance is so predictable. When the "Help! I'm being oppressed!" act fails, it's on to the old "Ha! You claim you post because of one reason, but actually you were lying, and it's a different reason! Gotcha!" act, as if this pretend "exposing" of the other side instantly negates everything it says.

ANYTHING will be tried, as long as it's not a reasoned discourse. Not sure they even can do that anymore. Their minds are so used to plowing the vilification and name calling game that reasoning doesn't compute.

 

[Jack Springer]

When did it become acceptable in CEP to openly trash someone's character and not feel the "wrath" of a moderator?

What's going on here?

Chance has a right to express himself as well as you.

The old, liberal argument that liberals are right because they are more intelligent therefore their opinions are irrefutable is elitist and just plain stupid.

Chance is so predictable. When the "Help! I'm being oppressed!" act fails, it's on to the old "Ha! You claim you post because of one reason, but actually you were lying, and it's a different reason! Gotcha!" act, as if this pretend "exposing" of the other side instantly negates everything it says.

ANYTHING will be tried, as long as it's not a reasoned discourse. Not sure they even can do that anymore. Their minds are so used to plowing the vilification and name calling game that reasoning doesn't compute.

 

[TX-Beau]

So is the assertion that "liberals" ever had such an "old liberal argument."

Once again, something a hatemonger just pulled out of his ass for lack of anything else to say.

Chance can express himself as much as he likes, then so can everyone else.

Your whining about it doesn't make it oppression.

 

[Kulindahr]

In ways you can't even imagine

where is that badge. I will wear it.

If you don't prove that you believe in your own ideas, others wont either.

From his posts, the only thing I think Chance believes in any more is cutting people down.

 

[Rolyo85]

When did it become acceptable in CEP to openly trash someone's character and not feel the "wrath" of a moderator?

What's going on here?

Chance has a right to express himself as well as you.

The old, liberal argument that liberals are right because they are more intelligent therefore their opinions are irrefutable is elitist and just plain stupid.

Nobody has made any effort to stop chance from expressing himself. Nobody here, other than the mods, can stop him from doing so. Yet you whine about them stopping ME from doing it? Double standards much?

And this is the first I ever heard about this "liberal argument", but if it existed, you'd certainly not be disproving it right now ^_^

 

[Kulindahr]

When did it become acceptable in CEP to openly trash someone's character and not feel the "wrath" of a moderator?

What's going on here?

Chance has a right to express himself as well as you.

Objective analysis of someone's communication style and patterns is perfectly legitimate. That Chance posts in frequently incomprehensible disjointed 'haiku' has even been noted by a mod or two.

It has nothing to do with any right to express one's self; it has to do with the manner in which that is done and the content (or lack thereof) involved.