Clinton backers at odds with... Clinton

[JackFTwist]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/la-na-govs24feb24,1,7727588.story

Clinton backers at odds with her on Fla., Mich.
Two leading governors tout the Democratic Party's rules. Seating barred delegates, they say, is a suspect proposal.

By Peter Nicholas | Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
February 24, 2008

WASHINGTON - Two prominent Democratic governors, both supporters of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential campaign, voiced doubts Saturday about her argument that her victories in Florida and Michigan should count toward her delegate total.

Pennsylvania's Edward G. Rendell and New Jersey's Jon Corzine suggested that it would be seen as unfair to award those delegates to Clinton, given the Democratic Party's ruling that the vote in those two states would not count.

Trailing in delegates to Sen. Barack Obama, the Clinton campaign has said she would fight to seat Michigan's and Florida's delegates at the Democratic convention in August.

The Democratic National Committee stripped the two states of their delegates as a penalty for leapfrogging ahead of other states in the election calendar, a violation of party rules.

Obama and Clinton had agreed not to campaign in Florida and Michigan, partly so as not to offend states that traditionally hold early primaries and caucuses. In Michigan, Obama's name was not on the ballot.

Clinton defeated Obama in Florida, 50% to 33%. In Michigan, Clinton won 55% of the vote, versus 40% for "uncommitted."

Howard Wolfson, communications director for the New York senator's campaign, said in an interview Saturday night: "We will be urging our delegates to vote to seat the delegations from Michigan and Florida. We believe that their votes should count."

Several Democratic governors interviewed at the winter meeting of the National Governors Assn. here said that would be a mistake.

Rendell said the Clinton camp could not make a convincing case that Michigan delegates should be added to her column: "You can't make any argument in Michigan, because Hillary was the only person who was on the ballot. I'm as avid a Hillary supporter as there is, but I don't think we can make an argument in Michigan."

In Florida, Rendell said, the Clinton campaign can mount a "tenable argument" that delegates should be awarded. Obama was on the ballot in Florida, for one thing. And Obama ran a television campaign ad there. It was part of a national cable ad buy. Rendell said it was likely an accident that it ran in Florida:"I believe he just didn't think to redact Florida from the buy," the Pennsylvania governor said.

The Clinton campaign has said that by airing the ad, the Illinois senator violated the pledge not to campaign in Florida.

And Clinton maintains that she did not campaign in the state, though she did appear there for several fundraising events before the vote. When it comes to Florida, Rendell said, "At least you can make a tenable argument . . . I'm not sure it's a winning argument."

Corzine said that a fair resolution would be for the two states to vote again. Because of their importance in presidential elections, neither state should be "disenfranchised," said Corzine, who has endorsed Clinton.

In the face of the Democratic National Committee ruling that the votes in Michigan and Florida would not count, he said it would not be acceptable to change the rules.

"I think actually given how the votes came about, we probably need a revote," Corzine said. "Some kind of new primary. I don't really see how you can ignore Florida and Michigan."

Other Democratic governors who have not endorsed a candidate took positions at odds with that of the Clinton campaign.

"I hate to see anyone disenfranchised, but my gut reaction to that whole thing is there were a bunch of rules that were set and you just don't go changing the rules after the fact," said Gov. Phil Bredesen of Tennessee.

Gov. Joe Manchin III of West Virginia suggested an alternative: splitting Michigan's and Florida's delegates evenly so that voters in those states would not feel disenfranchised.

Many of the Democratic governors interviewed concede that the party faces a predicament: Michigan and Florida are large, important states that the party hopes to carry in the general election, and nullifying election results sends the wrong sort of message.

Asked how the party should resolve the impasse, Rendell said, jokingly:

"Shoot [DNC Chairman] Howard Dean."

peter.nicholas@latimes.com

 

[Kulindahr]

There is some integrity in the party. If Hillary had any, she'd never have stood against the party rules.

 

[Lostlover]

It's definitely Hillary's time of the month if she goes back on the not counting Florida and Michigan.

She doesn't accept defeat too well.

Poor Bill... he has to deal with this. Now we see why he went with that fat intern at the WH.

 

[syntax]

The delegates from MI and Fl will not be seated. Sen. Clinton will concede the race after TX and OH.

 

[Twisted06]

but see pardon me but i thought we lived in america, now as for mi i had no idea that obama wasnt even on the ballot i dunno why but everyones right those shouldnt count. now as for florida, in america were told every persons vote counts. i dont give a crap if its hillary obama mccain huckabee or donal duck ! the point being just because the state goverment wanted to move up the primary for there state doesnt mean the people of florida shouldnt have there votes counted. this is pretty much a disgrace to the goverment to the country and to everyone in it. alot of what i read from news and peoples opinions like yours lost lover, are only because obviously you dont support her. but when it comes down to the point its america every persons vote should be counted for the election. go ahead and bash me all u want now just keep in mind im not a supporter of any of the people running because they all suck

 

[syntax]

but see pardon me but i thought we lived in america, now as for mi i had no idea that obama wasnt even on the ballot i dunno why but everyones right those shouldnt count. now as for florida, in america were told every persons vote counts. i dont give a crap if its hillary obama mccain huckabee or donal duck ! the point being just because the state goverment wanted to move up the primary for there state doesnt mean the people of florida shouldnt have there votes counted. this is pretty much a disgrace to the goverment to the country and to everyone in it. alot of what i read from news and peoples opinions like yours lost lover, are only because obviously you dont support her. but when it comes down to the point its america every persons vote should be counted for the election. go ahead and bash me all u want now just keep in mind im not a supporter of any of the people running because they all suck

Thank you. That was a very coherent and persuasive comment.

 

[Homoerectus]

If Hillary had vigorously protested the exclusion of Fl and MI delegates beginning when the DNC voted to exclude the delegates, I would have some respect for current efforts to seat them. I hope someone in MI and FL will take this to court and demand the state party or DNC to repay the state for a very undemocratic primary. It is not fair to taxpayers to pay the expense of a party primary if the people's voice is not heard.

 

[Twisted06]

Thank you. That was a very coherent and persuasive comment.

thanks im used to being bashed on these forums for my opinions lol.

 

[seamusnewwest]

It's not about Clinton's rights. It's about the rights of the voters in those two states, who have protested the loss of their franchise all along.

For people who believe in democracy, it's not the party rules that matter, or this current contest. It's the right of the people to have their vote counted. Remember that one? The foundation of the country, and all that?

And the great Obama stands placidly by and lets it happen, while his supporters argue for the disenfranchisement of two states, who rightfully protested the unfair and skewed primary process. The same man who's supporters argue that Clinton's superdelegates should not exercise their right to vote how they see fit, but vote "the way of the people." Except for two very inconvenient states, that is.

Maybe next time ... for now, the "democrats" aren't interested in upholding democratic rights.

Remember - it's not whether Clinton is right. It's whether it is ever right to take people's vote away. What if the country, and not just a party, did the same thing to a state for not complying with some federal law or other?

Poor America.

 

[Twisted06]

the sad thing is obama sits by and lets this happend. he thinks so high and might of himself and his why have the rest of this primary why not just send me to the nomination table now atitude. hes so sure of himself why should one more state matter to him ? hes so far ahead and unbeatable now according to everyone. hes disgraceful to them democrats for not standing up for there rights only when he sees that it benefits himself. in the words of hillary shame on you, and thats not taking a cheap shot thats the truth ( once again i remind everyone im not supporting anyone in this election )

 

[tmb1]

you guys dont know what your talking about

 

[JackFTwist]

It's not about Clinton's rights. It's about the rights of the voters in those two states, who have protested the loss of their franchise all along.

For people who believe in democracy, it's not the party rules that matter, or this current contest. It's the right of the people to have their vote counted. Remember that one? The foundation of the country, and all that?

And the great Obama stands placidly by and lets it happen, while his supporters argue for the disenfranchisement of two states, who rightfully protested the unfair and skewed primary process. The same man who's supporters argue that Clinton's superdelegates should not exercise their right to vote how they see fit, but vote "the way of the people." Except for two very inconvenient states, that is.

Maybe next time ... for now, the "democrats" aren't interested in upholding democratic rights.

Remember - it's not whether Clinton is right. It's whether it is ever right to take people's vote away. What if the country, and not just a party, did the same thing to a state for not complying with some federal law or other?

Poor America.

is this a part of your campaign for Democratic unity?

lets do this again and it has nothing to do with taking away anyone's right to vote

the Democratic Party is a private organization that can set its own rules - numerous court cases attest to that. Michigan and Florida chose to violate the rules that the DNC set. Clinton, Obama, Edwards, all signed statements that they would take their names off the Michigan ballot. Obama and Edwards followed through. Clinton broke her word. In the words of her campaign head in Michigan, former Gov. Jim Blanchard (a friend of mine) said it was not about keeping her word, but rather, winning.

Clinton then said that Michigan votes would not count - again she now breaks her word.

The vast majority of Michigan voters as I have heard them are angry at the violation of DNC rules and do not want that "primary" to count because it was stated that it didn't count so they did not vote. Interesting that running opposed against "uncommitted" she still only managed 55% of the vote.

Several Michigan congressional districts have voted to tell the state party to throw out the primary and have our usual caucus.

I do not speak top Florida because I do not know that situation personally.

As a member of a county and congressional district executive boards I do not want that primary to stand because I know too many people who did not vote because they were told it did not count.

Having given and broken her word twice, I can see why Clinton would not want us to have a caucus to choose our delegates.

The people who feel disenfranchised are Michigan Democrats - right now - who do not want a delegation seated based on the primary that intentionally violated the rules. Please do not pretend to speak for the "rights" of Michigan voters. Michigan Democrats have been cynically misused and do not appreciate it.

 

[Twisted06]

as do i not know the situation there and in florida either. but point being this is AMERICA votes for anybody should count for something. id be saying this no matter who the votes were for, what does that tell u when the goverment or nobody in office nor the people running for president except one person who actually cares about what more then half of the people in that state said. it is really a sad day in america when half of the states votes r not heard and dont count for anything at all. i dont really care what who and who and w/e signed or agreeded to. point being 55% of the people in that state who voted there votes do not count for shit wich is stupid.

 

[syntax]

JackFTwist, I forget, are you from Michigan?

I believe he is, and very well connected from what I hear!

(Just joking, Jack. I grew up in MI)

 

[JackFTwist]

I believe he is, and very well connected from what I hear!

(Just joking, Jack. I grew up in MI)

M Go Blue!

 

[syntax]

M Go Blue!

I'm a Spartan fan

 

[JackFTwist]

I'm a Spartan fan

what is there to be a fan about in reference to msu?

 

[syntax]

^^...ouch!

 

[JackFTwist]

j/k kinda


I actually have spartans in the family - albeit they married in - but I love them just the same (mostly)

 

[JackFTwist]

oh, and by the way, all the relatives, including the spartan ones, this year are very eager to vote Obama in November

the long time voters
the occasional republican voters
the ones who have never voted but registered so they can vote for Obama