Confusion about the Immaculate Conception

[Shafted]

I wonder why people keep erroneously referring to the virginal conception of Christ as the Immaculate Conception? Given the season of the year, I thought I'd share some info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception


The Immaculate Conception is a Roman Catholic dogma that asserts that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was preserved by God from the stain of original sin at the time of her own conception. Specifically, the dogma says she was not afflicted by the lack of sanctifying grace that afflicts humankind, but was instead filled with grace by God, and furthermore lived a life completely free from sin. It is commonly confused with the doctrine of the incarnation and virgin birth, though the two deal with separate subjects.


The virginal conception of Jesus is referred to as the Incarnation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incarnation

Incarnation, which literally means enfleshment, refers to the conception, and live birth of a sentient creature (generally human) who is the material manifestation of an entity or force whose original nature is immaterial.

And:

The doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ is central to the traditional Christian faith as held by the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and most Protestants. Briefly, it is the belief that the Second Person of the Christian Godhead, also known as the Son or the Logos (Word), "became flesh" when he was miraculously conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary. In the Incarnation, the divine nature of the Son was perfectly united with human nature in one divine Person. This person, Jesus Christ, was both truly God and truly man. This doctrine is specifically referenced in the Bible in John 1:14 and Colossians 2:9.


Merry Christmas and Peace on Earth.

 

[jft245]

No matter how you look at it, a fairy tale is a fairy tale.

 

[Ramindra]

I am a Buddhist and I know precious little about virgins and immaculate conceptions. I do shudder a little when wiki is used as a source on anything, and even more so when the subject is religion.

 

[jetsonboy]

No matter how you look at it, a fairy tale is a fairy tale.

Sorry to others, but I love the humor in this answer, and I don't care if it's politically incorrect!

 

[eywsoon]

Thanks, Shafted.

Oh...and for anyone else.....fairy tales do have significance--metaphorically and symbolically. Why do you think they've been passed down for such a long time?

 

[JustLC]

Thanks for posting this Shafted. I never even knew that the Immcaulate conception and the virginal birth were too completely different ideas. Thanks for informing me (and anyone else who actually cares )

 

[bagley]

Most nominal Christians know very little about the ins and outs of Christian theology. In the past the church provided beautiful visuals for the lay people and let the monkish clergy worry about the finer points. Even though the "IM" is a recent RC dogma (1870), it's roots go back to the Christological Controversies in the 4th century. The finely tuned Greek theology of that time recognized Mary as "God Bearer" or Theotokos as opposed to Christostokos. Modern Christians are also confused by the Holy Trinity and other doctrines which stem from the 4th century Greek theology.

 

[Shafted]

Shafted...thanks; unfortunately ignorance appears to know no bounds. i find most haters dont know the first thing about Christianity much less Catholic doctrine.

as for Wiki...it's pretty reliable and at least a lot easier to comprehend definitions of concepts than if one were to refer to www.newadvent.org which can be intimidating.

No problem. I just used Wiki for the sake of "having a source", but given my Catholic school education, I actually know the difference between the Immaculate Conception and the Incarnation. Gen pop is just a tad confused.

 

[Kulindahr]

Even long, long ago when the idea was first spun out, it was ridiculed. There were actually theologians who took it beyond Mary; for in order for Mary to be immaculate, her mother must have been, and hers, and hers....
I much prefer the concept explained to me by a Greek Orthodox priest, who found the Immaculate Conception frivolous. He pointed out one of the most ancient artistic rendition of the Annunciation -- the time when Gabriel spoke to Mary about Jesus being her child. The icon shows words coming down from God the Father through Gabriel and over to Mary -- but not to her mouth, rather to her womb, thus indicating that she was made pregnant by the Word from God. This Orthodox priest explained that it is widely held in the east that Mary's womb was sanctified as a fit vessel by the Word which announced the Christ's incarnation and then brought it about.
That makes a lot more sense to me, and has a feel of elegance to it.

 

[Diego_Ryan]

Even long, long ago when the idea was first spun out, it was ridiculed. There were actually theologians who took it beyond Mary; for in order for Mary to be immaculate, her mother must have been, and hers, and hers....
I much prefer the concept explained to me by a Greek Orthodox priest, who found the Immaculate Conception frivolous. He pointed out one of the most ancient artistic rendition of the Annunciation -- the time when Gabriel spoke to Mary about Jesus being her child. The icon shows words coming down from God the Father through Gabriel and over to Mary -- but not to her mouth, rather to her womb, thus indicating that she was made pregnant by the Word from God. This Orthodox priest explained that it is widely held in the east that Mary's womb was sanctified as a fit vessel by the Word which announced the Christ's incarnation and then brought it about.
That makes a lot more sense to me, and has a feel of elegance to it.

Here's why Pope Pius IX considered Mary sinless:

"And indeed it was wholly fitting that so wonderful a mother should be ever resplendent with the glory of most sublime holiness and so completely free from all taint of original sin that she would triumph utterly over the ancient serpent" (cf. Genesis 3:15).

This is a sufficient reason for the IC by itself: Mary is the Mother of God, so God would want the greatest mother of all (a holy and sinless Mother by the grace of God).

The evidence for the doctrine of the IC (which includes Mary's personal sinlessness) in Scripture is good, but not great. The Pope refers to Genesis 3:15 (the Woman, Eve who disobeyed and fell into sin paralleled by the early Fathers with Mary the New Eve who obeyed and did not fall into sin); Proverbs 8 (the Wisdom of God); Luke chapter 1 (especially Full of Grace [Greek: kecharitomene] and Blessed Among Women); the various Marian types

Luke Chapter 1 verse 28 and 46-48:

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

46: And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

here they compare Mary to the arK, SHE'S THE NEW Ark:

OT Ark of the Covenant
"The cloud covered the Tent of meeting and the glory of Yahweh filled the tabernacle." Exodus 40:34

NT Blessed Mother of God

"The power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow. And so the child will be holy and will be called Son of God." Luke 1:35

OT Ark of the Covenant
"However can the Ark of Yahweh (= My Lord) come to me?" 2 Samuel 6:9


NT Blessed Mother of God
"Why should I be honored with a visit from the mother of My Lord?" Luke 1:43

OT Ark of the Covenant
"And David danced before the Lord with all his might ... So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet." 2 Samuel 6:14-15

NT Blessed Mother of God
"As soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy." Luke 1:44

OT Ark of the Covenant
"And the Ark of the Lord continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months." 2 Samuel 6:11

NT Blessed Mother of God
"And Mary abode with her about three months." Luke 1:56

OT Ark of the Covenant
"And the Lord blessed Obededom and all his household." 2 Samuel 6:11 [fertility is associated with blessing]

NT Blessed Mother of God
"Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son." Luke 1:57

The church figures how can the mother of God be sinful and if she's the new ark how can she be sinful?

 

[Shafted]

As a Catholic I don't doubt the claims of Mary, Mother of God, but I don't accept the dogma that she was sinless or "ever virgin". Paul makes it clear that all have fallen short of the glory of God and all benefit from Christ's sacrifice, including his mother.

"My spirit rejoices in God, my Saviour."

Why would Mary be the only human without need of a Saviour? God doesn't have to make Mary sinless in order for Jesus to be so.

 

[Kulindahr]

I know that Father Robert would say that she didn't become the "new ark" until the Annunciation, so no Immaculate Conception is necessary.
It's one of those doctrines that is a "private" one, i.e. belonging to the Roman church and not ecumenical. It can be neither proved nor disproved. To me it seems clumsy, and the immaculate-by-conception seems beautiful and elegant: as the Word strikes Mary, she is made a fit vessel for what the Word brings, namely, Itself.

The "My Spirit rejoices in God, my Savior" statement is a potent one, too: if she was at that point clean from sin, why would hse be in need of a savior? I don't think it's just poetic license.

 

[chatolandia]

Very interesting.
As a child of protestants living in a mostly catholic country, this was always the sticking point of my discussions with my friends.