Convince me that God exists

[wooffy]

Maybe its the flu and fever making my thinking fuzzier than usual, but I have two discussions I would like to start, given all the discussion on religion lately (the second will get a thread of its own).

As mentioned before, I am an atheist and have been since childhood (I vaguely remember agreeing to confirmation on the condition that I would never again be required to participate in religion). Note that I don't reject the concept of non-human intelligence, or the concept of some sort of "higher powers" - though I am skeptical they exist - but I do completely reject the concept of "God".

So on to the point: maybe I've been going about this all wrong. Maybe, instead of engaging in debate, I will get more insight from a more passive stance. So, theists, please try to convince me that God is possible. I reserve the right to ask probing questions or refute your points, but won't otherwise "argue back" (that's likely to be a test of my self-control, I admit).

For the sake of discussion I will arbitrarily pick this definition of God from Wikipedia:

God is most often conceived of as the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe. Theologians have ascribed a variety of attributes to the many different conceptions of God. The most common among these include omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence.
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I'm not saying that you have to use that definition, its just a starting point. If you venture too far from it, though, you may also have to convince me that your definition accurately represents what most westerners mean when they say "God".

Any takers?

 

[Willie Boy]

You forgot a very important part of the definition of God, but I can understand why it was left out of wikipedia. Most Christians tend to sweep this one attribute under the rug. God is also the embodiment of Justice.

 

[wooffy]

You forgot a very important part of the definition of God, but I can understand why it was left out of wikipedia. Most Christians tend to sweep this one attribute under the rug. God is also the embodiment of Justice.

I wouldn't say that I forgot it, and I'm note sure that most people would agree... if anything I think the wiki definition is too inclusive already. I would be tempted to stop at omniscient and omnipotent. However it was just a convenient starting point - use what you feel fits if you chose to answer the question.

 

[diamondstar]

You forgot a very important part of the definition of God, but I can understand why it was left out of wikipedia. Most Christians tend to sweep this one attribute under the rug. God is also the embodiment of Justice.

Yes, a lot of Religions tend to forget that God "Or for me Jehovah" is a God of love and JUSTICE! God is a very loving being, but shows no mercy on those who keep on doing bad things with no remorse

Personally, theirs is no big evidence besides what's in the Bible or other various books about God or Gods "Science likes to take credit for everything". However, despite being a Gay man, I strongly believe in Jehovah and that's all I care about.

 

[wooffy]

Personally, theirs is no big evidence besides what's in the Bible or other various books about God or Gods "Science likes to take credit for everything". However, despite being a Gay man, I strongly believe in Jehovah and that's all I care about.

Well and good, but that's not very helpful for me.

I'm not asking anyone to prove that God does exist, just that God is possible. In more than the trivial "anything you can't disprove is possible" way. There are two reasons I specified that, one being that the Bible is no more meaningful to me than any other body of folklore, the other is that its simply an unfair question to ask here. If some of the greatest (as well as some of the wackiest) minds in history have failed to prove or disprove God's existence, I can't expect anyone here to do so. And if someone here could, I would likely not understand the arguments anyway.

 

[Willie Boy]

I could easily prove that God does exist. Well if I could take you back through my life and let you see with your own eyes every moment of my life (the good and the bad). If I could show you how being the pleasure toy of sadistic pedophiles into my 11th year of life, and the strength God gave me to not only survive, but overcome that has helped me overcome other situations in my life as well. How at every crucial decision in my life, God was there giving me insight and advice on how to best choose, you would know 100 times over that he exists. You would realize that the Bible is no mere "body of folklore" but a guide to getting through the trials of life.

 

[Zzzzzz]

that's only about you
you are the one going on your own way
noone should convince you on anything buy yourself

 

[wooffy]

that's only about you
you are the one going on your own way
noone should convince you on anything buy yourself

What's the point of going through life only exploring my own opinions?!?!

 

[wooffy]

Re: Convince me that God could exist

I could easily prove that God does exist. Well if I could take you back through my life and let you see with your own eyes every moment of my life (the good and the bad). If I could show you how being the pleasure toy of sadistic pedophiles into my 11th year of life, and the strength God gave me to not only survive, but overcome that has helped me overcome other situations in my life as well. How at every crucial decision in my life, God was there giving me insight and advice on how to best choose, you would know 100 times over that he exists. You would realize that the Bible is no mere "body of folklore" but a guide to getting through the trials of life.

Ok, I give up. It doesn't help that I flubbed the thread title.

 

[BearMagus]

Prove to me the gods don't exist.

To believe in a god or gods requires faith. To believe they don't exist requires the same faith because you can't disprove it. So if you're going to have faith either way, why not flow in the direction that there is/are a higher being(s) who basically has taken an interest in you?

 

[Jacquemar]

The existence of the sun is not proof for me at all, because there are many more logical explanations than "God did it."

It's true that the existence of the gods cannot be proven or disproven. but the various attributes and powers given to said gods can be shown to be natural phenomena, or in some cases, hallucinations. The existence of mythological books like the Bible in no way show to me the existence of a god because they are what they are: legends intended to reflect someone's religious beliefs.

 

[ronboy]

Let me turn this around.......

Convince me that God doesn't exist.....

 

[wooffy]

"The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel, is a documentary Movie at Netflix under Spiritual Mysteries.

I hope that this at least will help.

Given the reviews, I doubt it, but will see if it is available locally.

Currently making my way through Dawkin's "The God Delusion", after avoiding it for years. So far (about 1/6 of the way through) my reaction is pretty much what I expected - I generally agree with him, but he weakens his case of lot by deliberately using emotionally-loaded words instead of neutral language, and he really comes across as an ass sometimes.

Always amusing to read something you agree with yet find yourself cringing from simultaneously.

 

[wooffy]

Since its clear I won't get any serious replies, I am done with this thread. There are so few published rational arguments for the potential existence of a god, I guess it was too much to hope that anyone here would give it an honest effort.

 

[wooffy]

Prove to me the gods don't exist.

To believe in a god or gods requires faith. To believe they don't exist requires the same faith because you can't disprove it. So if you're going to have faith either way, why not flow in the direction that there is/are a higher being(s) who basically has taken an interest in you?

To believe in God requires this "faith" thing I don't have. To come to a rational conclusion that the existence of a God is so unlikely as to be ridiculous merely requires thought. If I said I believed in God, I would be lying. If acted as if I believed in God, I would be a hypocrite. Since I don't want to lie or be a hypocrite, that option is out.

Getting more specific, belief in a Judeo-Christian God would require me to also embrace beliefs that I find fundamentally inhuman, harmful, and evil - like the very idea of a God in the first place! So if I embraced the idea of "God" just to be on the safe side, I would be doing something very, very, harmful to humanity.

If you read my first post, I explicitly stated that I don't completely reject the concept of "higher powers". I would see acting in belief (in the absence of belief) to still be hypocrisy at best, and worst I would be stuck making assumptions about the roles and beliefs of higher powers I don't even believe in! I can just picture it now, "Sorry, I don't eat chocolate anymore, its against the rules of the non-existing religion of the higher power I don't believe in." Huh? This makes no sense whatsoever.

BearMagus, your post did not address what I asked in my OP, and I have a hard time believing you meant any of it seriously.

 

[wooffy]

Let me turn this around.......

Convince me that God doesn't exist.....

Why, is that actually a position you honestly want to explore? If so, ask someone else. Its not my position that God has been disproved, so I can't convince you that he/she/it doesn't exist.

 

[bankside]

Prove to me the gods don't exist.

To believe in a god or gods requires faith. To believe they don't exist requires the same faith because you can't disprove it. So if you're going to have faith either way, why not flow in the direction that there is/are a higher being(s) who basically has taken an interest in you?

Believing in a god or gods don't cause them to exist though. The question is about god's existence, which is not dependent on wooffy's belief.

 

[WillMc88]

Prove to me the gods don't exist.

To believe in a god or gods requires faith. To believe they don't exist requires the same faith because you can't disprove it. So if you're going to have faith either way, why not flow in the direction that there is/are a higher being(s) who basically has taken an interest in you?

Wrong. The whole "believing God doesn't exist takes the same amount of faith" argument is a fallacy. Does it take as much faith to believe in the existence leprechauns as it does to NOT believe in the existence of leprechauns?

It takes faith to believe in something despite lack of evidence. It does NOT take faith to NOT believe something exists when the evidence for its existence is lacking.

 

[WillMc88]

Let me turn this around.......

Convince me that God doesn't exist.....

Convince me that unicorns don't exist.

 

[WillMc88]

I could easily prove that God does exist. Well if I could take you back through my life and let you see with your own eyes every moment of my life (the good and the bad). If I could show you how being the pleasure toy of sadistic pedophiles into my 11th year of life, and the strength God gave me to not only survive, but overcome that has helped me overcome other situations in my life as well. How at every crucial decision in my life, God was there giving me insight and advice on how to best choose, you would know 100 times over that he exists. You would realize that the Bible is no mere "body of folklore" but a guide to getting through the trials of life.

Unfortunately, personal experience doesn't help anyone else except you. I believe the OP is asking for objective evidence-- something that can be verified and examined by anybody-- and not anecdotes or personal experiences.