Cops Raid Raw Organic Food Store In L.A.

[RationalLunacy]

Organic.

 

[doctorsun]

^ Oh, yeah, we oughta get back to the topic.

To those who think organic is hype: to some extent, it probably is.

But in many cases, there's a distinct, profound difference in taste. The two examples that come to mind are organic tomatoes and apples—and whole chickens—which seem to bear little or no resemblance to their plastic supermarket counterparts.

Did you watch the Penn and Teller video? They did a taste test on both tomatoes and apples. Over 70% of the tasters said they preferred the non-organic varieties and swore that they were, in fact, the organic ones. They also did a test with a banana, telling people that one piece of banana was organic and the other piece was from a non-organic banana. They were actually from the same banana. Almost everyone who tasted them swore that the "organic" piece tasted better. So, the "distinct, profound difference in taste" is quite likely nothing more than a placebo effect. You expect organic foods to taste better so in your mind, they do.

 

[doctorsun]

No, no, no. I have personally picked tomatoes off the vine. They are soft, succulent, rich.

The thing is, these fully-ripe tomatoes are much too soft to be shipped. Hell! They're too delicate to be sliced with a knife!

Ditto apples. I have had them picked right off the tree. They're so crisp they "shout" when you bite into them, and so juicy that they splatter on your face. With the possible exception of Granny Smith apples, you can't get these in a supermarket. Red Delicious apples at their height are crispy and juicy, but have an inedible taste.

What you're telling me directly conflicts with my life experience, and you might as well try to tell me the sun is blue, when I can open my eyes and see that it's yellow.

Fail. Big time.

Now, do you want to talk about raw milk, and cultured butter made from it? I've had direct experience with that, too. Cultured butter has an aggressively different taste.

regardless of organic versus normal farming, anything picked right from the vine is going to taste better than something shipped across the entire country... but for the vast majority of us, our only option is what we can find in our local grocery stores.

Right. A "conventional" tomato picked right off the vine at the peak of ripeness would likely taste just as good as an organic one picked under the same circumstances.

All of the supposed benefits of organic food are either pure hype or the result of a placebo effect from what amounts to propaganda. The taste tests in the video pretty much prove that. All of the people tested were shopping at Whole Foods and were self-proclaimed advocates of the organic food movement. Almost all of them were duped and couldn't tell the difference between organic foods and conventional foods when tasting and seeing them side-by-side. The banana test was actually hilarious. It wasn't only that the people believed the two pieces tasted different, it was that they believed the difference was dramatic. If that doesn't prove that it's nothing more than a mind trick, I don't know what does.

By the way, I also loved the part in the video where they say that if all of the farmers in the world switched to organic farming, it could only produce enough food to feed about 4 billion people. I guess the other 3 billion people are shit out of luck.

 

[metta]

I think of Penn & Teller as I do John Stossell....I don't trust any of them...they are determined to prove a point and manipulate things to make it look a particular way to prove it. That is not what I would call ethical journalism. It is more about exploitation than journalism.

 

[Fire]

Metta. Thank you. You said it better than I could have.

The entire skeptical movement sees what they want to see.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD8ZtM1sWgI[/ame]

 

[Fire]

The thing is, there's a double-standard in place.

The skeptical community swallows hook, line, and sinker, everything Penn & Teller & Co. says, while at the same time, picking apart with a fine tooth comb, the statements of the other side.

What is the "skeptical community," and what are their core beliefs, in your opinion?

Is faith in Penn & Teller a requirement to join? If so, do I have to subscribe to Showtime, or is it enough to watch Bullshit! on the Internet?

 

[doctorsun]

I'd say the arguments against the Penn and Teller video are valid up to a point. Anyone can "prove" anything with the right amount of editing and the right people demonstrating each side of the argument. If you find crazy hippies (the husband was clearly homosexual, by the way) and fanatical "experts" to defend organic food and serious, straight-laced "experts" to debunk it and edit them together in the right way, of course the skeptics will come off as more believable. However, I believe the taste test was completely valid. They didn't test random people on the street. They didn't test people who were already skeptical. They tested people who were PRO-organic. They were testing the very people who would dispute their claims. I don't think there's much of an argument to explain away why over 80% of those people were duped by the banana trick. Plus, in the blind taste test, over 70% preferred the non-organic food. I don't see how those findings can be disputed by arguing that Penn and Teller are not credible. Perhaps they aren't, but the test was. It not only tested the people who would be the most biased AGAINST what the show was trying to prove, it also tested them on their own turf using valid statistical testing methods. Those numbers are overwhelmingly indicative of the very point the show was trying to make.

 

[doctorsun]

Thank you for saying I have a brain. I try to let people know that I do.

I also want to point out that I'm not conservative in any way, shape, or form. I'm a liberal hippie, too, and I fully support anyone's decision to eat what they want. If someone wants to spend all of their money buying organic food, that's certainly their right. If they want to take the time and effort to actually grow it themselves and make themselves less of a burden on the retail food supply, that's definitely something worth applauding. What I don't appreciate, however, is the self-righteousness of many people who are followers of the organic, vegetarian, vegan, or raw food movements. Eating a particular diet does not make one a better person, nor does it make one more correct than someone who does not make the same choices. That's especially true considering that there are valid arguments both for and against pretty much every conceivable diet one may choose to consume. Nothing is 100% correct. Nothing is the "right" choice. So, when others declare that the foods I eat or anyone else eats are "garbage" simply because they choose not to eat them, that makes me mad.

Now regarding the organic food movement itself, I do believe that it's simply not valid enough to be worth all of the hype and certainly not worth the extra cost. Perhaps I'm too cynical, but to me, it reeks of a scam to get people to pay twice as much for food that's simply not that much better for them, if at all. And not only are organic foods not that much better for you, but conventional foods aren't that bad for you. It's all hyped-up faux science. And there is one indisputable fact that was presented in the Penn and Teller video. It takes more land to grow organic food because the yields per plant are significantly less than those of mass-produced foods. Because of this, there's simply not enough space on the planet and too many people populating it to make all-organic farming a viable option. That's a tough thing to get around. I think most people would much rather choose to eat a tomato that's been treated with pesticide than to starve to death.

 

[fetaby]

Illgetbi, human beings seem to want to classify people as either one thing (skeptics in this case) or another (believers).

I am neither. In fact, I think much of the hippy stuff is a crock of shit.

I refuse to let the hippy crowd tell me how to think, but I certainly don't let a man in a lab coat (or an avowed skeptic) tell me what to think, either. In fact, out of the two categories, I'd be hard pressed to tell you which group of people lies more.

At any rate, if you took the time to read the article, you'll see that people who self-identify as "skeptics" have lower-than-normal levels of dopamine in their brains, missed patterns that were present, so it can safely be assumed that their judgment is impaired to a certain extent.

What has always rankled me, however, is that while people rightly question the statements of one crowd (the believers), they swallow hook, line, and sinker, the statements of the other (the skeptics). In fact, I find that oftentimes this attitude reflects a kind of willful blindness, and begins to take on the tone of a religion. It all reminds me of the blind faith of Islamics.

You must remember that skeptics, including Penn & Teller, make a whole lot of money with their exploits, and nothing corrupts the human consciousness more than the pursuit of money.

 

[c750dt]

Organic foods is a relatively new trend though it's also old enough that we can see it doesn't necessarily improve the quality of life. However, for organic food, we do pay more. It's a solution in need of a problem. Besides, what's so bad about chemicals? A lot are bad and likewise, a lot of natural stuff is bad. As computers, cars, skyscrapers and jetplanes show, we're capable of building to a higher standard than nature. Come to think of it, we wouldn't need chemicals at all for food to come in high yields if irradiation became more popular. Unfortunately, there are too many people who slept through science class and thus don't realize exposure to radiation does not make something radioactive and thus, it's a struggling science.

On to topic, I really doubt this food store was raided simply because the FDA didn't like them. BTW, why do I have to stare at that guy's dooshy looking face through half the vid? What an attention whore!

 

[erobert]

There's also a story I heard about police raiding raw milk from farms. I think this has to do with liability issues and fear of lawsuits more than any conspiracy theories. Raw milk can be deadly if it's sitting around for awhile because it forms bacteria. With that said I only drink organic milk and eat organic meat and veggies.

Again these have to be eaten within a couple of days of buying them otherwise you'll waste money letting it rot thinking it will last for a week, something I learned after initially making the switch.

Just a rant about organic vs non-organic: many European countries produce only organic foods and have been since for centuries. They stuck with organic farming for a reason. Not only is organic food healthier but organic food tastes better. Organic food is the main food source over there. In fact, The EU has banned the sale of America beef due to fears of hormones in our meat and toxic chemicals used in the preservation process. More interestingly the top two food suppliers, ConAgra and Montsanto are also banned by many EU nations and Canada. They have been since 1989. It was revealed that Monsanto was using genetically modified seeds and wheat seeds and corn in the US. They also produce a widely used herbacides which has been shown to cause cell and organ damage in lab rats.

It's sad eating organically is linked to being "trendy", an "elitist" or a hippie. Humans have eaten organically since the beginning of time. I think perceptions are starting to change though.

Too bad McDonald's and Burger King aren't being raided by the FDA, their products are so unhealthy it's mind boggling how they got past the FDA. Oh right... $$$.

Now I sound like the director of Food Inc but really; people don't think enough about what they are eating and how it directly impacts their health.

 

[Joshua_me]

But wait... It was the pot that called the kettle black.....

 

[fetaby]

@Fetaby:

Your analogy doesn't make sense, in regards to my position.

I'll try to spell it out for you again.

Everybody knows the hippy crowd's full of fakes, but no one wants to admit that the skeptical community, driven by greed, is just as full of fraudsters.

Gawd, I feel like I'm talking to a child. Get a clue, boy!

Well then let the boy break it down....

Why are you so SKEPTICAL of the skeptical community..