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Dem Leadership Against Bernie again, already

My concern is that the Democratic party may split. If Bernie is not the Democratic candidate, I fear that his supporters will sit home and not vote. If Bernie is the Democratic candidate, will moderate Democrats vote for him? I will vote for whomever is the Democratic candidate, but some, who I have talked to, do not consider Bernie a Democrat and will not vote for him. That resistance may go away in time, but all that can be done to prevent a deep party divide must be done or Trump will be a 2 term President.
 
The fact that a third party candidate has to run for nomination of a major party to have a good chance is a problem that needs to be addressed in our electoral system, but I don't see 50 years registered and 12 years dedicated public service under a Democratic ticket as a 'cancerous growth' on said party. I will also observe that nobody called Hillary a cancer or a harpy or any such names on the left until she ran for president. While secretary she was quite popular. Also, parties have no obligation to be fair or even public. They are, as you said, essentially tribal clubs and always have been, which is why Washington warned against them.

They're called "New Democrats"... aka Bush Lite, Corporate Democrat, Third Way.... The Clinton's saw Reagan's success and capitulated on the beliefs of the Democratic party just to get elected. https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazin...r-off-today/qsYmCo7ZEYpQr8fOZSkRLM/story.html



https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazin...r-off-today/qsYmCo7ZEYpQr8fOZSkRLM/story.html
 
My concern is that the Democratic party may split. If Bernie is not the Democratic candidate, I fear that his supporters will sit home and not vote. If Bernie is the Democratic candidate, will moderate Democrats vote for him? I will vote for whomever is the Democratic candidate, but some, who I have talked to, do not consider Bernie a Democrat and will not vote for him. That resistance may go away in time, but all that can be done to prevent a deep party divide must be done or Trump will be a 2 term President.

If Trump wasn't up for reelection and Bernie was the democratic nominee I'd strongly look at the Republican candidate. I don't think America can afford Bernie.
 
^^^

I will say this. If everyone gets Medicare A and B, personal injury tort in this country is dead due to CMS secondary payer recovery liens. The deductibles are also ridiculous. People go bankrupt on original Medicare all the time. Medicare advantage is terrible and doesn't work for anyone without special needs. I know because I used to sell the plans.

Medicaid is a much better insurance system and more amenable to single payer skeptics as it may be administered by private companies. In Maryland at least, tort lawyers have a much easier time handling the liens.
 
If Trump wasn't up for reelection and Bernie was the democratic nominee I'd strongly look at the Republican candidate. I don't think America can afford Bernie.

Well, after Bernie suggested at a town hall meeting that the Boston marathon bomber ought to have the right to vote, I'm inclined to agree with you. I would sit home and not vote rather than vote republican. I don't know why Bernie said such a thing, but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.
 
Well, after Bernie suggested at a town hall meeting that the Boston marathon bomber ought to have the right to vote, I'm inclined to agree with you. I would sit home and not vote rather than vote republican. I don't know why Bernie said such a thing, but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.

If you are an American citizen, you should have the right to vote, regardless if you are in prison.
 
Well, after Bernie suggested at a town hall meeting that the Boston marathon bomber ought to have the right to vote, I'm inclined to agree with you. I would sit home and not vote rather than vote republican. I don't know why Bernie said such a thing, but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.
yeah, I just now watched him answer that question...took him long enough to do it


I don't have a problem with restoring voting rights to former prisoners who have re-entered society and completed their sentences/parole...not before


and the only thing I'd allow Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to vote on is the color of the sheet that will be pulled over his cold corpse
 
If you are an American citizen, you should have the right to vote, regardless if you are in prison.

People convicted of a felony loose citizenship, and the right to vote. Once time is served, and citizenship is restored, you may vote again. The Boston bomber will never be in a position to vote, nor should he be.
 
People convicted of a felony loose citizenship, and the right to vote. Once time is served, and citizenship is restored, you may vote again. The Boston bomber will never be in a position to vote, nor should he be.

Convicts don't lose citizenship and cannot lose citizenship for any reason, including treason, in the United States except for voluntary renunciation at a US embassy in a foreign country.

As part of the Black Codes in the aftermath of the US Civil War, losing the right to vote on conviction of a felony was a thinly veiled racist policy to take a swing at the disproportionately represented African American population in prison. The United States is nearly unique in this respect among leading democracies. Several states since the 1990s have begun the process to unwind what is and what was intended to be a racist policy.
 
… I don't know why Bernie said such a thing, but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.

Felons do not lose their right to vote while incarcerated in the State of Vermont.


Felon Voting Rights (National Conference of State Legislatures; December 2018)
 
Well, after Bernie suggested at a town hall meeting that the Boston marathon bomber ought to have the right to vote, I'm inclined to agree with you. I would sit home and not vote rather than vote republican. I don't know why Bernie said such a thing, but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.

Consider the reasoning used in the Supreme Court of Canada decision in 2002 when the restriction on felon voting rights was struck down:

On appeal, the Supreme Court of Canada upheld Sauvé (1995), concluding that:

- denying individuals the right to vote will not educate them in the values of community and democracy
- a blanket disenfranchisement is an inappropriate punishment because it is not related to the nature of the individual crime
- disenfranchisement does not increase democratic respect because it denies individuals' inherent dignity

So it may not be something you approve of for the US, but there are valid reasons to strike it down in the US as well, particularly when you consider the dirty, dirty history of the US in mass incarceration from Reconstruction onward.
 
Please explain why.

We can't possibly pay for everything he wants to do. Heck, we'd have a hard time paying for just one of his campaign issues. He's quick to say free health care, free college, reduced college debt and expanded social security but I've yet to hear how he's going to do it. It's not something I'm willing to 'wait and see'
 
People convicted of a felony loose citizenship, and the right to vote. Once time is served, and citizenship is restored, you may vote again. The Boston bomber will never be in a position to vote, nor should he be.

Just clarifying, I said they "should" have the right to vote, regardless.
 
We can't possibly pay for everything he wants to do. Heck, we'd have a hard time paying for just one of his campaign issues. He's quick to say free health care, free college, reduced college debt and expanded social security but I've yet to hear how he's going to do it. It's not something I'm willing to 'wait and see'

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/collegeforallsummary/?inline=file

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all?inline=file

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/news...azio-introduce-bill-to-expand-social-security


Following my having provided you with materials addressing your concerns, please provide me with information on how we are paying for continuous wars and expansion of the United States military budget.
 
We can't possibly pay for everything he wants to do. Heck, we'd have a hard time paying for just one of his campaign issues. He's quick to say free health care, free college, reduced college debt and expanded social security but I've yet to hear how he's going to do it. It's not something I'm willing to 'wait and see'

Yes we can, when you look at how the proposals are funded. Health care premiums would replaced by lower taxes. It would be a conservative dream were it not for ideological dedication to privatization. Countries that have single payer see that it works, and the flaws are no more serious than the ones we have. Corporations delay and deny all the time, but hey, we elect the government. We don't elect Scott Serata, essentially a dictator over the healthcare of 106 million Americans. Remember that.
 
We can't possibly pay for everything he wants to do. Heck, we'd have a hard time paying for just one of his campaign issues. He's quick to say free health care, free college, reduced college debt and expanded social security but I've yet to hear how he's going to do it. It's not something I'm willing to 'wait and see'

I wish I believed that the costs for these programs really would come from Wall Street, as they promise.

In my experience as a small-business person my increased costs have always come from the progressives. The valuation of my business is down by about 33% at this moment almost solely due to increased labor costs.

It can be very hard as someone on the left, like myself, to believe that Main Street really will be protected under his proposals. It would be nice if true, but I'm deeply skeptical.
 
People convicted of a felony loose citizenship, and the right to vote. Once time is served, and citizenship is restored, you may vote again. The Boston bomber will never be in a position to vote, nor should he be.

Convicts don't lose citizenship and cannot lose citizenship for any reason, including treason, in the United States except for voluntary renunciation at a US embassy in a foreign country.

As part of the Black Codes in the aftermath of the US Civil War, losing the right to vote on conviction of a felony was a thinly veiled racist policy to take a swing at the disproportionately represented African American population in prison. The United States is nearly unique in this respect among leading democracies. Several states since the 1990s have begun the process to unwind what is and what was intended to be a racist policy.
That's why I've ALWAYS felt that there should even be voting machines on Death Row. I said that long before Bernie ever said it (at least to my knowledge), I was saying it in the 1980s. And, Alnitak, you're spot-on EXACTLY why these disenfranchisement laws were enacted. Very possibly WITHOUT EXCEPTION in all of U. S. history, those laws were put in for racial reasons, or the perception that felons would mostly vote for "the other" party that was not currently in power in the respective states...or, often, both. That generally means that such laws were likely to be enacted by Democrats before about 1970, and by Republicans since.

I was very surprised to see Florida (in recent months) being one of the states actually undoing these terrible disenfranchisement laws, though. Not one of those places I expected.

We can't possibly pay for everything he wants to do. Heck, we'd have a hard time paying for just one of his campaign issues. He's quick to say free health care, free college, reduced college debt and expanded social security but I've yet to hear how he's going to do it. It's not something I'm willing to 'wait and see'
We USAns often throw around the phrase "free health care" as though it actually is free, and not paid for in any way. Health care IS A THING OF VALUE, and Economics 101 recognizes that there wouldn't be a health care system for more than a few nanoseconds if hospitals, doctors, pharma, etc. were not being paid ANYTHING BY ANYBODY. Usually "free health care" should, well, be called something more accurate such as "universal tax-funded health care." Some of us talk about the "free health care" in places like Sweden and Germany as though it actually is free...but it ISN'T. Those countries pay substantially more taxes than we USAns do because, again, the money has to come from somewhere...but also keep in mind that in USA the entire healthcare system is completely given free reign to charge absolutely the very top dollar that they feel like charging, and Big Pharma IS NEVER taken to task for increasing a life-saving medicine 22-fold unless the public protests go over-the-top. Shame is the only weapon that we have against these excesses; Martin Shrkeli DID NOT go to prison because he raised an important prescription drug by 53 times, but because of fraud in some unrelated matters.

All that said, the DIFFERENCE between taxes in USA and Germany is much less than the additional amounts that one has to pay out-of-pocket to get good health care AND send their children to college for free. I've said for decades that I would FAR rather pay taxes at German rates and actually get the perks that are automatic and ASSUMED there, but which here almost sound like something from another planet, while people in USA are dying because they can't afford even clinic exams for fear that they will have to spend a few hundred thousand treating something and become homeless, etc.
 
Other issues aside for the moment, the question with Bernie has always been two things, where does the money come from, and number two and even more important, where does the support come from. Simple fact that BernieBrtos run screaming away from every time, is that most Americans DON'T WANT TO "GIVE" people free college. We aren't a left leaning nation and if you get out there and ask, how much actual support is there for something like that?

Forget the money, if we had the structural support to achieve just universal healthcare, we could find the money. Hell you could probably pull it out of the military budget without serious problems, but that isn't the hurdle. Bernie's little toddlers won't even recognize that even the Democratic party, witch is much more sympathetic, isn't made up of leftist socialists. It's got a huge number of centrists, and blue collar people who are certainly not policy wonk lefties.

Bernie, who despite the attempt by his diaper brigade to appoint him King, doesn't have the pull, the allies, or the background to pull any of his ideas out of the realm of conjecture.


THEN you get to his other issues, which mostly revolve around the nasty venom displayed by his campaign last time around. People who swore Bernie or nothing, trashed Hillary unfairly, demanded he be appointed head of the party they claim to despise, just because, then sat home on their precious, plump, posteriors having a sulk and a snit when BERNIE TOLD THEM TO GO STOP TRUMP.


They left Bernie as a foul taste in the mouth with a lot of people - which really Bernie didn't deserve, but it's there none the less.
 
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