Democracy as Spectacle

[Kulindahr]

This is an interesting discussion, and I only wish that I understood it better. I'm afraid that some of it goes too much over my head for me to comprehend.

Observations/questions....

We know that in other parts of the world there are atrocities on a far worse scale than those we have in the West. I'm thinking of the horrific things that happen in places like the tribal wars in Rwanda and Congo where mass genocide took place.

But then you notice that sometimes it can surface in places you don't expect - for example, the ethnic cleansing involving Serbs/Bosnians/Albanians in the former Yugoslavia, or the violent gang murders amongst drug cartels in Mexico.

If you take the United States, you have to go into the past to see widespread and numerous instances of violence by ordinary members of the public, for example, the lynching mobs in the South, or before that the witchcraft fears and the burnings at the stake.

Now even in the most homophobic parts of America, we would never see a situation at present or in future where gays would be hung in the streets or kicked to death by crowds. Yes, individuals or very small groups can still be guilty of crimes, but not the mainstream populace.

Some JUBbers suggest that there may be a return to increased violence, a 'de-evolving' of some of us when those groups are exposed to sustained fearmongering and extreme religious prejudice. Whilst I don't deny that these practices take place, I don't see it translating into increased attacks and crimes. Quite the opposite is happening, as I understand it.

Am I wrong? Aside from the 'standard' religious indoctrination, what mental conditioning could possibly occur beyond what is already happening that could possibly result in the removal of human conscience and empathy on a mass scale?

All that's lacking is the blessing of the law. Give the ReligioPublicans a majority in Congress, and the current games they're playing will seem noble by comparison. For starters, there would be bills making it not murder to kill an "abortionist"... and from there it would get worse.

 

[BostonPirate]

All that's lacking is the blessing of the law. Give the ReligioPublicans a majority in Congress, and the current games they're playing will seem noble by comparison. For starters, there would be bills making it not murder to kill an "abortionist"... and from there it would get worse.

sort of a citizens right to execute the death penalty if you are a registered member of the political party?

 

[construct]

Am I wrong? Aside from the 'standard' religious indoctrination, what mental conditioning could possibly occur beyond what is already happening that could possibly result in the removal of human conscience and empathy on a mass scale?

I don't think you are wrong, but Giroux's article did not primarily address direct physical violence in the United States. He argued that an increased use of violent rhetoric in political discourse has contributed to, as you put it, "the removal of human conscience and empathy on a mass scale."

The removal of conscience and empathy is manifested for Giroux primarily in domestic policy through ignoring the common good and focusing only on personal advancement (and maybe not even that since it leads many to vote against their own interests). Environmental safety benefits us all, and the social safety net would be there should any of us need it. Yet the coarsening of the discourse has devolved into a shrill and counterproductive libertarianism.

While an unregulated market would hold corporations responsible solely to their stakeholders, there is at least the theoretical possibility that government is accountable to the people. Yet the call for fair taxation, for example, is transformed into chants of "No New Taxes!" which would likely redound primarily to the benefit of the corporate honchos. Government has become evil and incompetent in this model, and squeezing the revenue insures its failure.

The impersonality of the market dehumanizes the very people who praise and put faith in it. It turns individuals into fungible assets. Consumers, officers, shareholders, employees become widgets, and the inevitable tendency is to make them interchangeable and replaceable at whim. This is what I have referred to here as commodification of the person.

The libertarian shriek and the dominating, depersonalizing effect of the market form an escalating feedback loop leading to an increasing breakdown of governmental effectiveness and reinforcement of personal callousness. For the latter, one need look no further than the reaction videos to videos of actual atrocities. "3 men 1 hammer" and "Russian Neo-Nazi Beheading" reaction videos are the most striking examples I can think of to quickly illustrate an incorporation of commodification into individual consciousness.

Wouldn't you say that this shows that "the removal of human conscience and empathy on a mass scale" has already taken root? To my mind, it's growing like kudzu.

 

[Kulindahr]

sort of a citizens right to execute the death penalty if you are a registered member of the political party?

Something like that. I've actually heard "evangelicals" say there should be a law like that!

Once such a thing got started, we'd be back to a Salem Witch Trial phenomenon -- one we already have with the "megan's laws" abomination. I can see them happily requiring all gays to register, and having a web site telling who's gay and where they live, with police checking at random intervals to see if the gays really live there, and allowing gays to be denied housing and jobs because they're gay.

 

[Kulindahr]

BTW.... @Construct:

That "shriek" isn't libertarian, it's propertarian, and there's a vast difference. The libertarian opposes all forms of oppression (coercion), whether government or church or business or whatever; the propertarian exalts property rights over human dignity.

Propertarians are inherently cruel and are the ones to call people lazy if they're poor. I'm not sure where the exaltation of private property came from in this country, but I know one thing -- it's neither Christian nor libertarian.

 

[construct]

BTW.... @Construct:

That "shriek" isn't libertarian, it's propertarian, and there's a vast difference. The libertarian opposes all forms of oppression (coercion), whether government or church or business or whatever; the propertarian exalts property rights over human dignity.

Propertarians are inherently cruel and are the ones to call people lazy if they're poor. I'm not sure where the exaltation of private property came from in this country, but I know one thing -- it's neither Christian nor libertarian.

Fair enough. Despite my mislabeling you followed the argument. An interesting irony is that the propertarian sheik is not coming from the proprietors of the property they effectively protect. Or it would be ironic if it weren't just a dirty shame.

 

[Centexfarmer]

This is an interesting discussion, and I only wish that I understood it better. I'm afraid that some of it goes too much over my head for me to comprehend.

I think that you've received some pretty thoughtful responses since you posted this, and I'd like to add a few of my own.

Observations/questions....

We know that in other parts of the world there are atrocities on a far worse scale than those we have in the West. I'm thinking of the horrific things that happen in places like the tribal wars in Rwanda and Congo where mass genocide took place.

I think that part of the contributing problems within those regions is the tribal aspects and interactions that were taking place, or being overlooked when various European Powers were colonizing the region and then terratories were later carved up into "Nation States." So a lot of that animosity between various groups has existed for years, and once left unchecked it resulted in wars, civil wars, and tribal wars.

But then you notice that sometimes it can surface in places you don't expect - for example, the ethnic cleansing involving Serbs/Bosnians/Albanians in the former Yugoslavia,....

I can only speak to the history that I've read about those areas, the atrocities that took place after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, and how many of the regional differences were suppressed under under Communist Rule.

Once left unchecked, especially after the fall of the "Iron Curtain," all hell broke loose on ethnic and religious levels.

...or the violent gang murders amongst drug cartels in Mexico.

The Mexican Government has a long history of corruption, violence, and revolutions. If anyone thinks that to be "Mexican" means that you are a single race or identity then they are sadly mistaken.

Mexicans, and Mexican culture is a true melting pot of a lot of different cultures, influences, and in some cases religious dominance/oppression.

The drug cartels are comprised of just about every social, economic, and political strata within Mexico, and the violence that many of the Mexicans are experiencing there is based upon money, power, fear, and intimidation.

I'd agree that what's going in Mexico right now is far worse by comparison than what's going on here in the U.S., but I'd say that a majority of Americans aren't even aware that the problems that the peoples of Mexico are having has already spilled across into our own borders.

I think that a lot of our politicians, both Democrats and Republicans don't really want to have to deal with it out of fear.

Fear on the Democrats part that they might alienate some of their Hispanic Base, and fear on the Republicans part that their xenophobic rhetoric could actually escalate into an all out culture war within our own borders, and perhaps with Mexico itself. (And to some degree already has.)

If you take the United States, you have to go into the past to see widespread and numerous instances of violence by ordinary members of the public, for example, the lynching mobs in the South, or before that the witchcraft fears and the burnings at the stake.

Not to mention an all out "Civil War" where over 600,000 Americans killed each other, and that was just between the years 1861-1865.

After World War II, America developed a "middle class" that didn't really exist before the war. America's enemies from within were the "communists," and or "communist sympathizers."

Now even in the most homophobic parts of America, we would never see a situation at present or in future where gays would be hung in the streets or kicked to death by crowds. Yes, individuals or very small groups can still be guilty of crimes, but not the mainstream populace.

Even the mainstream populace, can be coerced into committing horrific atrocities against each other. One only has to study the history of the rise of the Third Reich to see how it could happen again.

Some JUBbers suggest that there may be a return to increased violence, a 'de-evolving' of some of us when those groups are exposed to sustained fearmongering and extreme religious prejudice. Whilst I don't deny that these practices take place, I don't see it translating into increased attacks and crimes. Quite the opposite is happening, as I understand it.

There could always be a backlash against the Gay Community if that sustained fearmongering, and extreme religious prejudice gained enough political traction amongst certain politicians.

Am I wrong? Aside from the 'standard' religious indoctrination, what mental conditioning could possibly occur beyond what is already happening that could possibly result in the removal of human conscience and empathy on a mass scale?

I think that it's already happened. It happened when many of our political leaders, in order to fearmonger, turned all of "us," as Americans, into a "them" the enemy; muslims, liberals, homosexuals, union members, teachers, environmentalists...them.

And it's been steadily happening more and more since 9/11/01.

But the mainstream populace has been too busy to notice because we've been distracted by other things, like trying to pay our bills, get ahead in live, live the American dream, while being bombarded with "infotainment," reality TV shows, and two wars, and even the latter doesn't really get that much coverage anymore.

Which is one of the reasons why I feel that Giroux's essay spoke to me here, and why I wanted to share it.

This is a really great discussion, I really appreciate the input that everyone has shared so far, it's been really informative and enlightening.

 

[Kulindahr]

The Mexican Government has a long history of corruption, violence, and revolutions. If anyone thinks that to be "Mexican" means that you are a single race or identity then they are sadly mistaken.

Mexicans, and Mexican culture is a true melting pot of a lot of different cultures, influences, and in some cases religious dominance/oppression.

The drug cartels are comprised of just about every social, economic, and political strata within Mexico, and the violence that many of the Mexicans are experiencing there is based upon money, power, fear, and intimidation.

I'd agree that what's going in Mexico right now is far worse by comparison than what's going on here in the U.S., but I'd say that a majority of Americans aren't even aware that the problems that the peoples of Mexico are having has already spilled across into our own borders.

I think that a lot of our politicians, both Democrats and Republicans don't really want to have to deal with it out of fear.

Fear on the Democrats part that they might alienate some of their Hispanic Base, and fear on the Republicans part that their xenophobic rhetoric could actually escalate into an all out culture war within our own borders, and perhaps with Mexico itself. (And to some degree already has.)

Mexico's problems result to a large extent from the U.S. culture of hate.

The "War on Drugs" made it okay to stigmatize, look down on, and use government force against people not because they'd done any harm to anyone at all, but because of disagreement with their lifestyle. It's institutionalized hate and cruelty, and it subsidizes violence by driving up the price of a desired commodity.

Get our hate under control here, eliminate the laws against domestically-grown marijuana, allowing family businesses to grow it, and the Mexican cartels get the rug pulled out from under them. Ending cruelty against our own citizens will reduce cruelty abroad that brings its own right back into the US.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Because of some of the duties that I volunteered for within my community, and as a "Veteran" I officiated, and was asked to speak at a Veteran's Day commemoration.

After the distinguished veterans spoke of which "war" that they were a veteran of, it was my turn to speak.

I stated that I was "A veteran of Ronald Reagan's WAR ON DRUGS."

And I was.

And it got some laughs.

While Miami Vice was one of the most popular television shows, and top 40 songs from ex Eagle singers were popular, I was a Radioman in the United States Coast Guard.

Capturing Haitians after they had sold every possession that they owned for a short "boat trip" to America.

Dating back to Carter the American government made it easy for them; 'reach the beach and we're hands off.'

Cubans too.

Those who drowned trying to make it there didn't matter, and those who didn't we personally returned them to a dictator that "we" supported and he made sure that they suffered even more.

I had a Top Secret Security Clearance, and every month we'd get a report from the State Department outlining the percentage of "drug traffic" that we were able to stop from entering the South Eastern United States.

70% was our ceiling.

We could never crack that. No matter how hard we tried.

This was about the same time that Reagan, and Oliver North had to answer some questions about Iran/Contra.

Turned out that our Government was smuggling guns into Nicaragua, (and we caught a few of those who were using old surplus navy and coast guard ships, with all charges being dropped after we arrested them), but here's the real kicker!

That 30% that was making it back, that was "legit" even on commercial airlines, that the DEA, U.S. Customs, and the United States Coast Guard, that "ceiling" that we couldn't crack?

That was the 30% of drugs that was coming back into the United States.

Gun runners got a free pass.

No inspections; Customs, DEA, or otherwise.

And if we caught them, they were let go.

My friends, and now fellow veterans want to know why I "didn't make a career of it."

That's why.

Everyday that I put on my uniform as a member of the United States Coast Guard, I was putting my life on the line for lies.

And it wasn't just me! It was my family, and the lives and family members that I served with.

We boarded a yacht out of the Cayman Islands, and as soon as the boarding officer got on board he was met by the owner of the yacht with pictures of THAT officers family. And told him, "you didn't find anything here."

And he didn't, and we shared that officer's report with the DEA, Customs, and State Department.

No response.

So I've discovered that whenever you pick up a newspaper, or read an "official statement" about on official government position, there's always more, and the REAL story is NOT what they're sharing with the press.

Mexico's problems result to a large extent from the U.S. culture of hate.

Exactly.

They are a "them."

Why as Americans should we care about a country that is the "legal" home of our "illegal immigrants?"

While completely ignoring the fact that "we" are part of their problem.

Both in the opportunities that we have to offer, and a desire to keep "their problems" south of the boarder.

The "War on Drugs" made it okay to stigmatize, look down on, and use government force against people not because they'd done any harm to anyone at all, but because of disagreement with their lifestyle. It's institutionalized hate and cruelty, and it subsidizes violence by driving up the price of a desired commodity.

It's not just the Mexicans.

Colombians, Panamanians, Nicaraguans, or just Central and South Americans for that matter.

Along with those who use drugs here in America, and advocate for legalization.

Have we even considered the cost?

The loss of minimum wage security jobs at privatized prisons, and juevinile detention facilities?

<sarcasm>

America has more minorities and "others" within their "prison system" than any other democracy in the world.

Google it!

But we're a "free society."

So long as we're an "us" and not a "them."

Get our hate under control here, eliminate the laws against domestically-grown marijuana, allowing family businesses to grow it, and the Mexican cartels get the rug pulled out from under them. Ending cruelty against our own citizens will reduce cruelty abroad that brings its own right back into the US.

Compassion doesn't pay the bills, win elections, or balance the budget I'm afraid.

Fear, and having someone to blame for it does, regardless of the suffering that it causes.

Everything else is just a dividend.

 

[Centexfarmer]

Jeebus!

After rereading that ^ I sound like a cold, bitter, jaded, and hateful beyotch.

It is what it is.

And after nearly 20 years nothing has given me any promise to change that perspective.

 

[Kulindahr]

Because of some of the duties that I volunteered for within my community, and as a "Veteran" I officiated, and was asked to speak at a Veteran's Day commemoration.

After the distinguished veterans spoke of which "war" that they were a veteran of, it was my turn to speak.

I stated that I was "A veteran of Ronald Reagan's WAR ON DRUGS."

And I was.

And it got some laughs.

While Miami Vice was one of the most popular television shows, and top 40 songs from ex Eagle singers were popular, I was a Radioman in the United States Coast Guard.

Capturing Haitians after they had sold every possession that they owned for a short "boat trip" to America.

Dating back to Carter the American government made it easy for them; 'reach the beach and we're hands off.'

Cubans too.

Those who drowned trying to make it there didn't matter, and those who didn't we personally returned them to a dictator that "we" supported and he made sure that they suffered even more.

I had a Top Secret Security Clearance, and every month we'd get a report from the State Department outlining the percentage of "drug traffic" that we were able to stop from entering the South Eastern United States.

70% was our ceiling.

We could never crack that. No matter how hard we tried.

This was about the same time that Reagan, and Oliver North had to answer some questions about Iran/Contra.

Turned out that our Government was smuggling guns into Nicaragua, (and we caught a few of those who were using old surplus navy and coast guard ships, with all charges being dropped after we arrested them), but here's the real kicker!

That 30% that was making it back, that was "legit" even on commercial airlines, that the DEA, U.S. Customs, and the United States Coast Guard, that "ceiling" that we couldn't crack?

That was the 30% of drugs that was coming back into the United States.

Gun runners got a free pass.

No inspections; Customs, DEA, or otherwise.

And if we caught them, they were let go.

My friends, and now fellow veterans want to know why I "didn't make a career of it."

That's why.

Everyday that I put on my uniform as a member of the United States Coast Guard, I was putting my life on the line for lies.

And it wasn't just me! It was my family, and the lives and family members that I served with.

We boarded a yacht out of the Cayman Islands, and as soon as the boarding officer got on board he was met by the owner of the yacht with pictures of THAT officers family. And told him, "you didn't find anything here."

And he didn't, and we shared that officer's report with the DEA, Customs, and State Department.

No response.

After all that, I wonder if I should get so depressed from time to time about not having been able to get into the Coast Guard.


Reminds me of running into a naval aviator I grew up with in Oregon, in Florida. He'd been part of a program Veep Bush got through quietly -- fighters running from Texas to Florida on regular runs got armed, and occasionally there was a drug runner in air or on sea that they got to shoot at. Cynically, we figured they were taking out someone's competition.
Now I believe it.