Depressing news for millennials

[hotatlboi]

How much due to lack of degrees? What is their rate of college degrees versus the generations before?

A degree is absolutely still worth it.

I'm a millennial, I have a science degree and my salary is more than 5x higher than the stated average in my state.

I'm nowhere near a "1%er" yet, but my degree was well worth it, even though I have debt.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

I know that Youfiad posted at length on here about hating his college degree and debt, but then doubled down, lived at home, and got a job at Costco until he could get a job with his science degree. He later did, and kept the Costco job until he paid off his student loans.

And that is good? Living with your parents and working two full-time jobs for several years just to pay for your university degree? Europeans would call this a horror story. Europeans pay some taxes, yes, but not much more than Americans, yet they pay next to nothing for themselves, their spouse and their kids when it comes to health care or education.

If the guy you mention had been born in France, Spain, Finland, Italy, Ireland, or wherever, he would have paid a few hundred euros per year for his studies (maybe a few thousand, if his parents were really rich) and he would not have had to take a McJob before, during or after their studies. The time many American students spend working, European ones spend at scout groups, sports clubs or other non-profit organizations. Or just having fun.

Though I'm the first to admit that Europe is also becoming poorer and poorer each day.

 

[otters]

A degree is absolutely still worth it.

I'm a millennial, I have a science degree and my salary is more than 5x higher than the stated average in my state.

I'm nowhere near a "1%er" yet, but my degree was well worth it, even though I have debt.

But I guess you'll agree that it's certainly not a law of nature that a MSc or the like would automatically provide a six-figure income.

It's much more likely that a young person with a six-figure income is having the right genes, and by that I mean: relatives who did help to find the right job.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

Internships do serve a purpose. They are short periods of time, often done during the college years. They are/should be considered part of the education process, where the intern gets in inside view of his/her field of work. It looks good on resumes, too. Many internships are paid, as well.

In the EU, it is illegal to pay an intern anything less than any other employee doing the same task. I really don't understand why Americans put up with the idea of working for free. Doesn't it go against all of your priniciples?

 

[Kabluey]

This is why you are supposed to plan for your future and not just let life happen. Without a college education or some kind of training, you can't expect much more than minimum wage. As Jason pointed out, it's not much better if you get a college degree that does not prepare you for the work force. Careers don't usually just fall into a person's lap. You have to put in the effort and hard work your place in the world.

I recall being 17 and trying to choose an education.
There was a lot of misinformation, from politicians especially who wanted an excess of science grads, in a country with few science jobs.
Blaming each individual misses the point if they're being told to train for careers that the country might desire, but companies do not.

Non-essential (to the country) careers, like accounting, turned out to be more lucrative for the individual.
Starting your career with more than $100k in student loan debt and high youth unemployment is a recipe for compounding financial stress.

 

[NotHardUp1]

And that is good? Living with your parents and working two full-time jobs for several years just to pay for your university degree? Europeans would call this a horror story. Europeans pay some taxes, yes, but not much more than Americans, yet they pay next to nothing for themselves, their spouse and their kids when it comes to health care or education.

If the guy you mention had been born in France, Spain, Finland, Italy, Ireland, or wherever, he would have paid a few hundred euros per year for his studies (maybe a few thousand, if his parents were really rich) and he would not have had to take a McJob before, during or after their studies. The time many American students spend working, European ones spend at scout groups, sports clubs or other non-profit organizations. Or just having fun.

Though I'm the first to admit that Europe is also becoming poorer and poorer each day.

Let's be fair. American ethnic diversity saw much poverty that you're excising from your carefully chosen European countries. If you truly included all Europe, especially to the population level of the U.S., your comparison would quickly fall apart.

Sure, a handful of Northern and Western Europeans with a negative birth rate see higher standards of living, but as economies force the importation of labor, each sees issues similar to what America has. We could easily slice and dice America into rich and poor zones and exclude the poor states as outliers the way Europeans treat their poorer regions as atypical.

But I guess you'll agree that it's certainly not a law of nature that a MSc or the like would automatically provide a six-figure income.

It's much more likely that a young person with a six-figure income is having the right genes, and by that I mean: relatives who did help to find the right job.

None of it is a law of nature, but anyone capable of earning a degree using higher sciences or maths predictably has career options beyond teaching high school math.

But, systemic trends or no, all students are to some degree culpable for choices they make and the need to redirect when it becomes necessary. The rat maze doesn't favor the lazy or the stupid, and college degrees are not withheld from either.

In the EU, it is illegal to pay an intern anything less than any other employee doing the same task. I really don't understand why Americans put up with the idea of working for free. Doesn't it go against all of your priniciples?

This seems to be reaching almost mythical proportions. How many jobs out of how many are unpaid internships? We had seven interns here two summers ago at my company, and it employs around 200,000 worldwide. None of them were unpaid, and none of them were living at home -- all had apartments (on-campus mostly), but were from distant schools.

Just because some professions are using unpaid interns doesn't mean it's the dominant mode. What do the stats say?

It's not fair to get on the soap box about it if it is the exception rather than the rule.

I recall being 17 and trying to choose an education.

There was a lot of misinformation, from politicians especially who wanted an excess of science grads, in a country with few science jobs.

Blaming each individual misses the point if they're being told to train for careers that the country might desire, but companies do not.

Non-essential (to the country) careers, like accounting, turned out to be more lucrative for the individual.
Starting your career with more than $100k in student loan debt and high youth unemployment is a recipe for compounding financial stress.

I don't find "blaming" a fair characterization. Responsible. Accountable.

Fat people may have been ignorant of good nutrition when they were kids, and they may not. But if they have a fat problem, they are ultimately responsible, not the maker of Cheetos, not the TV station that aired the commercials, and not the USDA that allowed corn starch to become an ingredient in myriad products.

Careers aren't like sex changes, irreversible. They happen every day, and change as the person makes those decisions. Those who work at McDonald's may have to figure out how to change the direction with night courses, GED, whatever the next step is.

When I changed course, I went through manual labor jobs at a factory, and it took courses and years to change course. I lived in cheap rentals and bought old furniture and worked one year after another to make small improvements, and eked by with credit debt until I could make a living wage. And I had no middle class family to help me along.

It takes struggle. It's not a level playing field, but we are not hapless victims either.

 

[kallipolis]

We could easily slice and dice America into rich and poor zones and exclude the poor states as outliers the way Europeans treat their poorer regions as atypical.

Well noted for the poorer regions of EU countries (I don't recognise Europe as a country) such as the Mezzogiorno of Italy, or the fringes of the UK are typically impoverished, subsidised by the wealthier regions.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

The thing is, things are not the same when you did what you had to do. Not everyone that is having a hard time finding work with a college degree is a helpless victim, but problems exist in our society where things like unpaid interns exist and they don't do anything to excel the skills that these people are looking for in their career. And again unpaid interns should next exist, it is a waste of time for a fresh college graduate with loans.

Not everyone that works at McDonald's or another minimum wage job is GED less, doesn't have a high school diploma or a college degree.

 

[peeonme]

Unpaid internships do happen in the US, the fact that they are legal is wrong, myth or no myth.
At one time not that long ago a person could work in a factory (a job that paid far better than the wal mart jobs od today) and live modestly while going back to school, that was called OPPERTUNITY, something sorely lacking in America today.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I am retired. But lets at least call it like it is.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Well noted for the poorer regions of EU countries (I don't recognise Europe as a country) such as the Mezzogiorno of Italy, or the fringes of the UK are typically impoverished, subsidised by the wealthier regions.

True, but there isn't a country in Europe with a comparable population to the U.S. At some point, a collection of countries is a more fair comparison.

The thing is, things are not the same when you did what you had to do. Not everyone that is having a hard time finding work with a college degree is a helpless victim, but problems exist in our society where things like unpaid interns exist and they don't do anything to excel the skills that these people are looking for in their career. And again unpaid interns should next exist, it is a waste of time for a fresh college graduate with loans.

Not everyone that works at McDonald's or another minimum wage job is GED less, doesn't have a high school diploma or a college degree.

Agreed. But one must stop doing what isn't working. The unpaid interns can see if they are getting nowhere and should not stay in that path.

As for the degrees, when I worked manual labor, beside peers who had not even high school degrees for more pay than I received as a degreed teacher, I wasn't the only one there with a college degree working the assembly line.

It still takes doing whatever it takes and there are no guarantees.

But I agree that we must systemically remediate what is wrong with our economy and education intersection. When I attended college, the country was behind college education. My BEOG and PELL grants were monumental helps, and made the difference. Now the nation is niggardly and the poor are truly abandoned in their plight to move up.

And it is the goddamned Congress that took the money and gave it to industry and the 1%.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Unpaid internships do happen in the US, the fact that they are legal is wrong, myth or no myth.
At one time not that long ago a person could work in a factory (a job that paid far better than the wal mart jobs od today) and live modestly while going back to school, that was called OPPERTUNITY, something sorely lacking in America today.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I am retired. But lets at least call it like it is.

No one is arguing that they don't happen. But what is the incidence? In what industries? And what percent go on to paid positions?

Random facts don't make unpaid internships relevant.

There are restaurants where waiters payed to work there, as they earned so well in tips that it made sense. But that didn't make it ever typical of waiters' jobs.

 

[peeonme]

No one is arguing that they don't happen. But what is the incidence? In what industries? And what percent go on to paid positions?

Random facts don't make unpaid internships relevant.

There are restaurants where waiters payed to work there, as they earned so well in tips that it made sense. But that didn't make it ever typical of waiters' jobs.

If it happens once, once is too much. It should be illegal to get free work out of a person.
We have gone from decent paying factory jobs to unpaid internships and it seems fine with those who have arrived.

 

[kallipolis]

And it is the goddamned Congress that took the money and gave it to industry and the 1%.

I don't believe anyone here is underestimating the value of our educators. Nevertheless it is true that there are countries where educators are better appreciated by society, when paying them sufficient salary not to have them leave education to work in a factory, or supermarket where they can earn a higher income.

Here we agree.

 

[otters]

I wonder if these figures reflect "true" wages, what one makes after paying for health care, most are unaware that at one time an employer paid 100% of the premium on health care for a worker AND his family.

I understand what you mean — but:

For most kinds of comparison the figures should necessarily be the gross salary figures, because due to the very different income tax systems, both for a cross-state-border comparison, as well as and even more for an international comparison, the net salary figures weren't actually useful.

Let's say:
State XYZ funds 25% or even less of its population's education — these might be the US states with a very low or no state income tax;
State ABC funds 75% of its population's education — almost certainly they must have a state income tax there.

Of course [especially, if net figures are used], these taxation/health and social insurance/education costs and some more peculiarities of the States or nations in question should be pointed out precisely.
But most charts don't (cannot) do that, and that's a dilemma of these comparisons.

 

[otters]

And that is good? Living with your parents and working two full-time jobs for several years just to pay for your university degree? Europeans would call this a horror story. Europeans pay some taxes, yes, but not much more than Americans, yet they pay next to nothing for themselves, their spouse and their kids when it comes to health care or education.

If the guy you mention had been born in France, Spain, Finland, Italy, Ireland, or wherever, he would have paid a few hundred euros per year for his studies (maybe a few thousand, if his parents were really rich) and he would not have had to take a McJob before, during or after their studies. The time many American students spend working, European ones spend at scout groups, sports clubs or other non-profit organizations. Or just having fun.

Though I'm the first to admit that Europe is also becoming poorer and poorer each day.

Let's be fair. American ethnic diversity saw much poverty that you're excising from your carefully chosen European countries. If you truly included all Europe, especially to the population level of the U.S., your comparison would quickly fall apart.

Sure, a handful of Northern and Western Europeans with a negative birth rate see higher standards of living, but as economies force the importation of labor, each sees issues similar to what America has. We could easily slice and dice America into rich and poor zones and exclude the poor states as outliers the way Europeans treat their poorer regions as atypical.

Please compare the chosen EU countries in the context of all Europe:

List of European countries by average wage

List of European countries by median wage

 

[NotHardUp1]

If it happens once, once is too much. It should be illegal to get free work out of a person.
We have gone from decent paying factory jobs to unpaid internships and it seems fine with those who have arrived.

Again, we were warned over 30 years ago that factory jobs would be a diminishing job opportunity. We were told that in Arkansas, in a rural state that was poor. If I got the message, anyone should have.

Generalities like "and it seems fine" aren't anything but rhetoric. WHO is fine with it? To what degree are unpaid internships even happening? This could be another political stunt like the Tawana Brawley thing.

 

[otters]

Please compare the chosen EU countries in the context of all Europe:

List of European countries by average wage

List of European countries by median wage

… but take into account what I said in #54

 

[otters]

Generalities like "and it seems fine" aren't anything but rhetoric. WHO is fine with it? To what degree are unpaid internships even happening? This could be another political stunt like the Tawana Brawley thing.

http://bfy.tw/3JKB

 

[NotHardUp1]

Please compare the chosen EU countries in the context of all Europe:

List of European countries by average wage

Thanks. The latter link proved largely unpopulated, so I used the former since my goal was to study the scale of population versus income.

I took the table from the average income link, and simply added population from another Wiki page, ostensibly 2014 or 2015 data. The population is listed only for comparison of scale, not for assertions of average income against that population, as the average table was very specific about the data representing only single incomes, etc.

Still, the table tells the story I expected: no real comparable country exists alongside the US income and population. As we all know, Russia is half the population, and Western Europe's star players in income are dramatically less by population. Cherry picking industrialized nations with small populations (by comparison) ignores the Mediterranean and all of Eastern Europe, Russia in or out.

 

[NotHardUp1]

http://bfy.tw/3JKB

Thanks, but the onus to prove them consequential is on the backs of those making that argument. I'm willing to be persuaded with those arguments presented. It is not my burden to prove the negative.