Depressing news for millennials

[otters]

Still, the table tells the story I expected: no real comparable country exists alongside the US income and population. As we all know, Russia is half the population, and Western Europe's star players in income are dramatically less by population. Cherry picking industrialized nations with small populations (by comparison) ignores the Mediterranean and all of Eastern Europe, Russia in or out.

I disagree.

What you're trying, isn't accurate IMHO.

The United States of America are not only a geographic, but also a political and foremost an economic entity.

If you want to compare the socioeconomic entity "USA" and another socioeconomic entity in Europe, it needs to be the more or less "United States of Europe" — aka European Union or EU-28.

Russia is part of the geographic entity Europe, but it's certainly NOT part of the EU-28; hence it cannot be really considered for our comparison.

Additionally: Comparing USA and EU-28 would also work population-wise quite exactly.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Oh, I'm not hanging my hat on including Russia. By all means exclude her.

The comparison is still very telling when you just use the 28. When Europe has to own up to its own regions of relative poverty, the U.S. isn't shabby at all in the comparison.

Would it be nice to be up there with the small, white countries with little diversity and low birth rates? Maybe, but we're doing all right on this side of the pond with broader diversity and apparently much less poverty than Europe.

We all have problems to work on, but the table shows why the U.S. gets postshot so quickly. There's real reason for envy, and Western Europe quickly disassociates itself with its poor cousins to the South and East.

 

[otters]

The comparison is still very telling when you just use the 28. When Europe has to own up to its own regions of relative poverty, the U.S. isn't shabby at all in the comparison.

And I still wholeheartedly disagree — please take into account what I said in #54; taxation is (no, in fact: appears to be) generally "lower" in the USA because health insurance and pensions, education and many more peculiarities are chiefly "private" in the United States, but in many of the EU-28 countries it's basically the opposite.

Well, very probably, the figures regarding the Gross domestic product PER CAPITA are more telling; cf.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_state_of_the_European_Union#List

And now we would need "GDP per cap. (PPP)" figures of the US States

 

[peeonme]

Again, we were warned over 30 years ago that factory jobs would be a diminishing job opportunity. We were told that in Arkansas, in a rural state that was poor. If I got the message, anyone should have.

Generalities like "and it seems fine" aren't anything but rhetoric. WHO is fine with it? To what degree are unpaid internships even happening? This could be another political stunt like the Tawana Brawley thing.

Don't you mean vanishing? No one told that American worker in 1985 that the US would intentionally put millions out of work by entering in to a "free" trade deal with Red China.

In 1985 Reagan was blasting communism, not singing Kumbaya.

Workers who had entered skilled trades, studied, served apprenticeships and invested in expensive tools were throw under the bus.
Again, you point the blame at the blue collar worker, it is sad that so many professionals lack empathy for those without degrees.

This mantra of "you were warned" is an insult. No one had a clue of the plan set in place against the middle class. Most people were aware that some jobs had gone to Japan, I remember as a boy that the joke of the day was "was it made in Japan?" As Japanese quality improved and they went high tech (for that time period) we saw that most electronic devices made there were as good as American and less expensive.

Fair is fair, Japan won in many markets, took a big share of the auto industry and US manufacturers had to wake up and smell the coffee.

This is a far cry from China selling cheap lives to US companies that flocked to their shoes and quality plummeting, dangerous lead paint being used on toys while Red China built a huge economy for the government, not the people.

This might sound redundant, a broken record... but no more so than "you were warned"

 

[peeonme]

I understand what you mean — but:

For most kinds of comparison the figures should necessarily be the gross salary figures, because due to the very different income tax systems, both for a cross-state-border comparison, as well as and even more for an international comparison, the net salary figures weren't actually useful.

Let's say:
State XYZ funds 25% or even less of its population's education — these might be the US states with a very low or no state income tax;
State ABC funds 75% of its population's education — almost certainly they must have a state income tax there.

Of course [especially, if net figures are used], these taxation/health and social insurance/education costs and some more peculiarities of the States or nations in question should be pointed out precisely.
But most charts don't (cannot) do that, and that's a dilemma of these comparisons.

When comparing all 50 states it would be good to know if all of this median income was taxable income (federal income tax).
If a person makes $30,000. does he make that in taxable wages?

Back in 1999 I made $60,000. and my employer paid all of my insurance, including co pays and deductibles, I had no health care costs.
Today if one makes 60,000 and we adjust for inflation he makes 41,000 compared to my earnings of 1999, but then most workers are clobbered with a premium of around $1800. per single person and sometimes $5000.00 or more per family, along with a deductible
that can run in to thousands (I know of several who have a $5000.00 deductible per family).

Suddenly this $60,000 reduces for inflation to $41,000. then reduced for health care premiums by a few thousand more with a looming deductible and co pays is not much money, yet we see medium incomes on that map from around 19000. to a high of 40,000.

My point in all of my posts in this thread is to show how the American workers wages have been incrementally, systematically and intentionally brought down and how the money that they once made has been funneled to the 1%.
If this would have happened over a short period of one year there would have been riots.

The worker today is like the battered wife, she gets used to the abuse, puts up with the injuries and insults and one day her husband come home to find her waiting with his shot gun. There is a breaking point.

 

[otters]

The worker today is like the battered wife, she gets used to the abuse, puts up with the injuries and insults and one day her husband come home to find her waiting with his shot gun. There is a breaking point.

Many defenders and prosecutors agree to handle this as an act of self defense. And rightly so, I say.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Don't you mean vanishing? No one told that American worker in 1985 that the US would intentionally put millions out of work by entering in to a "free" trade deal with Red China.

In 1985 Reagan was blasting communism, not singing Kumbaya.

Workers who had entered skilled trades, studied, served apprenticeships and invested in expensive tools were throw under the bus.
Again, you point the blame at the blue collar worker, it is sad that so many professionals lack empathy for those without degrees.

This mantra of "you were warned" is an insult. No one had a clue of the plan set in place against the middle class. Most people were aware that some jobs had gone to Japan, I remember as a boy that the joke of the day was "was it made in Japan?" As Japanese quality improved and they went high tech (for that time period) we saw that most electronic devices made there were as good as American and less expensive.

Fair is fair, Japan won in many markets, took a big share of the auto industry and US manufacturers had to wake up and smell the coffee.

This is a far cry from China selling cheap lives to US companies that flocked to their shoes and quality plummeting, dangerous lead paint being used on toys while Red China built a huge economy for the government, not the people.

This might sound redundant, a broken record... but no more so than "you were warned"

Degrees didn't save people. There were plenty of degrees out there that didn't get any foothold in the middle class. A degree is not magic, and I didn't present it as such.

Factories closed in my hometown, one I had worked at myself. Workers were given generous allotments to get retraining, to go back to school for as much as two years or more. That's one helluva re-start option, and it was common in Arkansas, and I know they were using federal dollars.

That was 10 years after they were telling us factory jobs could be relied on. Yes, there is some individual responsibility I make no apologies for saying we are all accountable for the choices we make. It goes for people with degrees and people without.

When Youfiad was discouraged, I encouraged him to keep looking. He did. And now he sees it differently.

The economy isn't set in stone. It does no good to pout that it didn't work out the way we planned. Tons of people lost their ass in the crash almost a decade ago. It wasn't fair, but it also wasn't a good idea to assume anything about the future.

Many of my friends didn't want to believe the factory was going away, and they waited until the jobs left before making a plan. That's their choice. We had options. They chose.

As for cheap imports and quality, America was plenty happy to poison us with asbestos, DDT, lead, and myriad other ways, and the government was a chief culprit in many cases. Before Ralph Nader, we were little better than China. China is emerging. We just don't like getting a dose of our own medicine after more than a century of manipulating other economies for our benefit.

 

[peeonme]

@NotHardUp1
The implication has been that because the masses ignored the sounding alarm of globalization and failed to plan, get the "proper" degree that they deserved what they got.

I have worked with people who have degrees, I was kind and helpful to them. A degree does not increase an IQ. I was always amazed
at the general lack of knowledge these guys had, math beyond grade school level was non existent.

Plants and factories have always opened and closed, I have worked for a few that went under, there was never a warning. Sure rumors circulated, but I just don't recall one of our Presidents giving the American worker a "grab your ankles" speech.

I am not "pouting", I am merely telling it like it is, I won't make excuses for a government that disenfranchises it's work force and then say that they were no better than the government of China in my next breath.

Bottom line, The US government sold out to the highest bidder, the stuff coming from China is inferior to what it replaced.

We are where we are at, the standard of living in our nation has dropped like a lead balloon (sorry about the lead) and it wasn't "transitional" like the boys moving from the farms to the cities BY CHOICE, it happened with the stroke of Bill Clintons pen, no one liked Nafta or Gatt, but the free trade deal with China was the kiss of death.

Now, you mention money being giving for those in Arkansas to go back to school, maybe this was the TRA or trade readjustment act,
some, mostly auto workers were offered that in Michigan, most were given the TS act, more commonly known as "tough shit".

Once again, I made it, I am retired. I have sold coins, real estate, managed restaurants or what ever else it took to keep the boat afloat, I supported 3 people on one income and we lived pretty well.
But, I understand that not all can do this, we will always have those who do menial labor, but should we force all into this?

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

odd a apees human surviees inta 21 mak a radios etc wook fa
_is any one a thereeeeeeeeeee_
but no can ear owns planet
% anyway %

allas aboard

tinku

"wookees sumthang up tere wookin us
! dat phds wookin fa teys socks !