Did American congresss know that our prime minister is an Atheist ?

[Lostlover]

I like Australia and New Zealand. I feel more kinship to them than the British.

 

[Kulindahr]

Good on the Aussies not to hold that against somebody. I'd feel a lot better if I wasn't governed by powerful people who are trying their hardest to install their own Christian version of Sharia Law in its most harmful possible form.

You'd like my kind of Christian as president. See, my type believes Jesus and the Apostles when they say that the only power the church has is preaching the word -- no lobbies, no political organizations, no funding of political campaigns or issues. I'd happily sign a bill that says churches that spend on political issues lose their tax-exempt status. And if some Republican leader took to the airwaves to say some law should be passed because it would require people to follow "God's word", I'd get on the airwaves and demand to know just where Jesus said, "Go ye therefore in my name and make laws".

I can get just as fiery as any hellfire preacher -- but against all the bigotry and hate and intolerance and arrogance that claims God as its authorization. Getting drunk and all may be sins, but at least they aren't marching up and spitting on Jesus' face, like these reactionary 'evangelicals' do.

Agree. I find him too cerebral to believe Noah gathered every species of mites and ticks on a boat for the new world.

I expect him to be cerebral enough to know the Bible doesn't make such a claim.

Regardless of whether she is an atheist or not, her speech didn't go over so well outside the room.


It didn't go over so well here either. I particularly found the bit offensive where she called the US "the cradle of democracy." That crosses a line, coming from someone leading a Commonwealth country. I mean it's not like we didn't have the Magna Carta or anything, which was ironically enough the shared democratic roots on which the US was building. Gillard doesn't know the history of the Westminster parliament of which she is the chief minister. Disgraceful!

Don't neglect Bannockburn and Arbroath and... there's another one, that I'm forgetting.

And technically speaking, the Magna Charta gives shared republican roots: the people got no actual say, the barons spoke for everyone.

 

[andysayshi]

The Aussie PM gave Obama an iPod with Australian musicians.

... ....

I'm surprised there's no Duran Duran or AC/DC.

For the record, Duran Duran are English, not Australian.

 

[Kulindahr]

^^^

Regardless, Parliament was a well developed enough hybrid democratic-oligarchic institution by the American Revolution to be called a "cradle of democracy."

The Parliament of Great Britain had problems that conflict with the definition of democracy of course. Other than an entire house of hereditary nobility with veto power, the House of Commons was also of woefully unequal representation. For example, there was a small town (I forget the name) that since the middle ages had two representatives all to itself. That's right, a town got more representation than 19 British colonies in America in which millions of people lived.

However, by 1787 when the US Constitution was adopted, the US had the most democratic government in the world by far.

That has great similarities to the Roman Republic in terms of distribution of representation. There were districts of Rome itself with more Senators than entire outlying cities.

 

[bankside]

Actually by my read of it, the whole British Empire had a lot to learn from Iceland at the time, including colonial America and fledgling USA. The point is, cradle it ain't. Too many developing strains of democratizing political thought were being woven together over the span of too many different countries for one place to aggrandize itself, or be aggrandized, as "the place that invented it."

It didn't work that way.

 

[Kulindahr]

Actually by my read of it, the whole British Empire had a lot to learn from Iceland at the time, including colonial America and fledgling USA. The point is, cradle it ain't. Too many developing strains of democratizing political thought were being woven together over the span of too many different countries for one place to aggrandize itself, or be aggrandized, as "the place that invented it."

It didn't work that way.

In some ways, yes; allowing the people to show up and comment was better than the U.S., but I find no indication that the leaders who made up the Althing were elected.

American democratic institutions owed more to Scotland than to England, sharing with that country the concept of inalienable rights, as opposed to England, where rights are granted from above. The concept had infected England somewhat, enough that the colonists could legitimately say they only wanted the traditional rights of Englishmen -- so the American revolution was a conservative revolution, seeking merely to maintain what was theirs, against a reactionary monarchy that wanted to be absolute.

 

[bankside]

In some ways, yes; allowing the people to show up and comment was better than the U.S., but I find no indication that the leaders who made up the Althing were elected.

American democratic institutions owed more to Scotland than to England, sharing with that country the concept of inalienable rights, as opposed to England, where rights are granted from above. The concept had infected England somewhat, enough that the colonists could legitimately say they only wanted the traditional rights of Englishmen -- so the American revolution was a conservative revolution, seeking merely to maintain what was theirs, against a reactionary monarchy that wanted to be absolute.

See, never mind your kind of Christian, it is your kind of American who has a future in the world.

"Isn't it magnificent that so many people so far around the world were willing to struggle for freedom and democracy. My country played an important role in that." vs. "My country invented democracy. You all imitate our freedom."

 

[Kulindahr]

See, never mind your kind of Christian, it is your kind of American who has a future in the world.

"Isn't it magnificent that so many people so far around the world were willing to struggle for freedom and democracy. My country played an important role in that." vs. "My country invented democracy. You all imitate our freedom."

My kind of American....

My kind of American got laughed at because before I went to Canada, since we were going to be two nights in Quebec, I brushed up hard on my French, like studying for a final; and laughed at when I headed for Mexico and started two weeks ahead of time reading from the modern Spanish Bible and a Spanish novel to resurrect my Spanish.




Though some stopped laughing when I saved a couple hundred bucks down there just because I knew the language.

 

[Tengilethos]

Hmm I don't know but how can anybody claim somewhere else than GREECE to be the "cradle of democracy"?

Anyway, good for her to be open about being an atheist, at least she is honest and doesn't just pretend to be Christian to get more votes.

 

[bankside]

In some ways, yes; allowing the people to show up and comment was better than the U.S., but I find no indication that the leaders who made up the Althing were elected.

In a smaller society a conventional secret ballot would be both difficult to implement (everybody knows what everyone else thinks from conversations anyway) and somewhat meaningless as a means of redress.

Also, in an aristocratic society (as most were at the time) the right of anyone to go partake in debate with the unelected lords represented a high benchmark for distribution of power. Electoral influence is not the only way to ensure public input; the increasingly angry mobs in their various factions, all with a right to be party to the debate, would exert a healthy influence on the decision-making made by the nobility.

Think of it as "aristocratic governance with democratized consensual mob support"

 

[Kulindahr]

Hmm I don't know but how can anybody claim somewhere else than GREECE to be the "cradle of democracy"?

Anyway, good for her to be open about being an atheist, at least she is honest and doesn't just pretend to be Christian to get more votes.

Because by the modern definition of the term, until recently in history Greece never had a democracy: when four-fifths of your population are property, what you have is an oligarchy.

 

[Kulindahr]

In a smaller society a conventional secret ballot would be both difficult to implement (everybody knows what everyone else thinks from conversations anyway) and somewhat meaningless as a means of redress.

Also, in an aristocratic society (as most were at the time) the right of anyone to go partake in debate with the unelected lords represented a high benchmark for distribution of power. Electoral influence is not the only way to ensure public input; the increasingly angry mobs in their various factions, all with a right to be party to the debate, would exert a healthy influence on the decision-making made by the nobility.

Think of it as "aristocratic governance with democratized consensual mob support"

LOL

Love the description.

 

[frankfrank]

The Aussie PM gave Obama an iPod with Australian musicians. And the Aussie commentators are ripping her for it. Sounds like some petty ass Americans.

http://m.smh.com.au/entertainment/m...sic-20110309-1bnc6.html?comments=111#comments

I'm not familiar with any of the music. I'm surprised there's no Duran Duran or AC/DC.

No SPLIT ENZ either...

 

[andysayshi]

^ I LOVE Split Enz (who are, technically, a New Zealand band) and the evolution of them, Crowded House. (Crowded House can be called Australian, as 2 of the 3 original members were Aussies.) Neil Finn is my favourite songwriter ever.

Something that occurred to me revisiting this thread, is that many Americans would probably be far more concerned to hear that our PM Julia Gillard was a member and Secretary of a Socialist Alliance back when Ronnie Reagan was President. Ironic that she mentioned him in her speech.

 

[Telstra]

^ I LOVE Split Enz (who are, technically, a New Zealand band) and the evolution of them, Crowded House. (Crowded House can be called Australian, as 2 of the 3 original members were Aussies.) Neil Finn is my favourite songwriter ever.

Something that occurred to me revisiting this thread, is that many Americans would probably be far more concerned to hear that our PM Julia Gillard was a member and Secretary of a Socialist Alliance back when Ronnie Reagan was President. Ironic that she mentioned him in her speech.

If she talk about her lack of believe in god and lecture the congress about atheism, i wonder what would the congress reaction be? Might be news all over the world and spark a big debate in the US and open up some closed minded people ..