Discussion of threads. Doomed Romance, a pixel tragedy...

[TX-Beau]

Something Lex said in another thread got me thinking – and since it’s a slow Friday, I though I actually make a thread and see if any of you are interested in discussing this.

Regard:

…

Then there's this kind of thread. Not as common, and harder to pin down.

Generally, the first post presents a situation where a possible outcome is hot sweaty sex, almost always with a "straight" guy. But to achieve that outcome, something "wrong" has to happen somewhere. The guy might be married, or it might involve cheating, or lying to somebody or everybody, or plying somebody with drink and making a move.

It appears the OP is looking for approval. He wants JUBbers to give him the "go for it!" signal. But most of us won't. We'll tell him to back off. At which point, the story often changes. The marriage is on shaky ground. The OP is already on the outs with his boyfriend. The lies and deception aren't really that harsh, and the "straight" guy likes getting drunk and making moves anyway. So now how about some approval?

I don't know what to call these threads. Maybe "can I get an amen" threads?"

Lex

(emphasis mine)

I have a slightly different take on these threads. First off, while I do believe these contain kernels of truth, I also think most of them are apocryphal.

Why, well, they read like fiction, context, plot, crisis – and what’s supposed to happen in here, resolution. Lex’s “amen,” or “go for it,” kind of sentiment that the poster seems to be looking for. I think they’re looking for all of us to give them a happy ending to their story. I think these are an invitation to participate in th OP's imagination.

Because I suspect that in real life, what happened isn’t the dramatic plot, but something far more mundane and real – the other guy wasn’t interested – and the thread serves as a sort of wish fulfillment, a way to get the validation and attention that real life didn’t provide. That’s why there’s a plot change for every real life piece of advice.

By no means am I saying that every guy that comes in here bemoaning the fate of undying love for his straight friend is doing this – in fact those kinds of threads present an altogether different kind of tone in the first place. The gay guy is usually under no illusions that the straight guy is going to jump the fence. It’s not set up like a novel.

But those threads where you have a gay guy – usually closeted, who’s in love with a married/dating (a girl)/straight/supposedly bi guy, who’s also in the closet – and yet secretly wants the gay guy, who was his greatest friend/perfect companion. All the while cruel society is sundering them; the other guy is tortured, the gay guy is tortured, everyone is tortured, angst runs like wild mustangs, and what oh what on earth are we to do?

Which is where the thread comes in – and why it’s pretty much are hard to take at face value.

Now, like I said before, I suspect that the characters are generally real; it’s the plot that’s been improved. I also think that the kernels of truth in these threads are not what the poster is saying, but why he’s saying it, why the thread exists in the first place.

My opinion, because the poster is using the thread as a means of dealing with his own issues, which I suspect usually start with loneliness and the closet; it’s a way of having a gay relationship without having to have a gay relationship; without having to come out, without having to confront actual gay behavior; and a method of getting outside validation for your attraction to that guy, who you never tried for, never told, and who didn’t want you anyway.

Always we tell these guys to walk away and go find some gay men to date. But I suspect that’s precisely the real problem, the gay guy isn’t going to go find some gay men, that would require risk, and coming out, and dealing with a whole host of scary issues that the Digital Tragic Romeo™ never requires you face. You can have him, and your doomed love, and your closet, that star crossed "if only," you feel right down to your toes, and you never have to take a chance.


Who knows, maybe real life does resemble Opera. Maybe these guys are just bored. Maybe everything they post is true.

Thoughts?

 

[rareboy]

I sometimes shake my head and wonder how gullible some story tellers think their readers are....and wonder why they feel the need to manipulate well meaning people.

And then I meet a real live person who is so self-unaware, (if that it even a term), that they really are totally locked up and fucked up over some of the issues we read about in this forum.

I've come to realize that it is amazing how neurotic the actual world really is out there some days, but increasingly, one senses that kids from shattered family backgrounds have a really difficult time figuring ground rules for their own relationships and with the isolationism possible through vicarious living on-line, that many of these scenarios are more possible than we'd imagine.

To be honest, the thread that prompted Lex's comment stretched the limits of credulity although I suspect that the OP may have a variety of mental health issues that he's working through if he's just not creating chaacters for his own entertainment.

The seasoned pros at relationships and being out are naturally going to encourage guys to come out of the closet, come out of their shell, come out of their house and into a wonderful (and sometimes not so perfect world) of honest gay relationships.

What I think we need to encourage every poster to do is to step back, breathe and look at their issue with some perspective.

We all definitely need to encourage guys to become more confident in making their own decisions and to develop the skills to do this in order to avoid the '8 Ball' or 'Ouija board' threads where some posters seem to turn to the forum to run a plebiscite on every move they make. Part of making decisions is making the wrong choices sometimes and this can also be healthy.

 

[TX-Beau]

Yeah, I get kind of frustrated with guys who require a quorum to approve every decision they post about. Especially when it's obvious that they already know what they want to do, and are just looking for permission to do it.

That aside, I think you've hit on another phenomenon that the net has thrown up. The digital love affair. Guys who don't know each other having text/chat based romances.

Though that's only marginally relevant to what I was posting about before, it does become grist for the mill. I suppose if you have a thousand and one truncated thoughts on your text apparatus of choice, it becomes easier to interpret the way you want to interpret. If you have to actually ask the guy out, you get your answers swift, and clear.

I suspect that the guys who're doing this are mostly young, so there's hope they'll grow out of it.

I think that in here, one hopes that at best we do provide perspective. But guys have to be willing to look at it, and if the point of the thread is to further a preconceived scenario - I think that for those guys, actual perspective is unwelcome. They don't want to hear about reality, they want a receptive audience.

Most of the threads in here aren't in that category. But the ones that are, put you in a dilemma, do you go along for the ride, or do you try and say something real?

 

[hylas]

tx, rare, i totally agree with some of your points and am less sure about some others, but i want to make a different point altogether:

i think the people who like to post advice in this forum (me included) have sometimes the tendency to become annoyed if the op decides to not follow their advice. i think thats quite obnoxious and smug and we need to be careful with that. yes, we mean well and we give some good advice, but if the op decides to disregard it and do it his own way, then thats no reason to get all pissy about it (just as the op doesnt need to get pissy if the answers he gets arent the ones he wanted to hear). the way i understand it, the cor&bt forum is meant to be a place for constructive and well-meaning exchanges of opinions. yes, its sometimes frustrating if people "just dont get it". but we need to check ourselves: are we still being constructive, or are we just as addicted to the drama and the need to be right as some of the ops in question?

often, the best advice is "jeez, just relax." maybe we should do exactly that sometimes.

 

[rareboy]

I think the only time that one gets annoyed is when the person with the problem is argumentative or returns repeatedly to bemoan the fact that there still is no resolution while resolutely rejecting 'good' advice. As I noted, not every decision will be the right one; this is part of the life-learning experience as well.

While it is fair and sometimes even healthy to reject advice and make your own decisions, there is a big difference between doing that and constantly arguing with others. The people who do it on a forum likely also do it in real life. I've had acquaintances, friends and employees who behave this way. So I have the same rule for them that I was raised with. If you don't want to follow advice, then follow your own path and best of luck. Just don't return to complain if it didn't turn out well. Just be silent.

It increasingly seems like people have been raised without the life skills to make decisions and live with consequences of their actions. In a lot of these cases, the person knows exactly what they're going to do, come hell or high water. What they're looking for is validation.

Or worse, they're looking for someone else to shoulder the responsibility if it doesn't turn out well.

 

[Telstra]

I think the only time that one gets annoyed is when the person with the problem is argumentative or returns repeatedly to bemoan the fact that there still is no resolution while resolutely rejecting 'good' advice. As I noted, not every decision will be the right one; this is part of the life-learning experience as well.

While it is fair and sometimes even healthy to reject advice and make your own decisions, there is a big difference between doing that and constantly arguing with others. The people who do it on a forum likely also do it in real life. I've had acquaintances, friends and employees who behave this way. So I have the same rule for them that I was raised with. If you don't want to follow advice, then follow your own path and best of luck. Just don't return to complain if it didn't turn out well. Just be silent.

It increasingly seems like people have been raised without the life skills to make decisions and live with consequences of their actions. In a lot of these cases, the person knows exactly what they're going to do, come hell or high water. What they're looking for is validation.

Or worse, they're looking for someone else to shoulder the responsibility if it doesn't turn out well.

some of them don't have life skills to feed/cook for themselves. They buy take away, already made food.
They are fat unhealthy and early health issues. The parents are to blame.

 

[G-Lexington]

Since I at least inspired the thread, I guess I should weigh in.

First off, my overriding thoughts on CO&R. Yes, there's a decent chance that any given OP has either fudged the facts in a major fashion (either to make themselves look good, or for dramatic effect) or they've made it up out of whole cloth. But I decided early on that I was always going to assume that the situation was pretty much as they described it, anyway. Why? A couple reasons. Firstly, I can accept that things happen that would never happen in my personal sphere. Just because it seems unlikely to me doesn't mean it can't happen at all. Secondly, I don't have any way of corroborating the info - all I'll ever have as a source of info in the OP. And thirdly, even in their "idealized" version of the world, the advice tends not to change. So in the "I want to get it on with my straight married friend,", the OP might play up how much the straight guy is giving him the eye, and how dysfunctional the marriage is, and how hot the straight guy is. But guess what? My answer's the same. "Don't go there." So even if he could convince himself that the marriage were on the rocks, and that Mr Straight really wants it, he's STILL not getting the approval...which hopefully will be enough to keep him from making a move.

Which brings up reason four - despite the idealized set-up, giving factual advice moves everything back to reality. The OP can give you the perfect porn film set-up - here comes the pizza delivery boy with a knowing grin. But if you respond in a non-porn way - "you might be dealing with a minor here, and your pizza will get cold" - it destroys the fantasy aspect. In porn films, everybody is beautiful, everybody is well-hung, everybody orgasm the second they want to, nobody has to clean up, and there are no ramifications for fucking anybody and everybody. Not so in real life, and bringing those back into the equation moves things back to planet earth.

Re: rareboy's comments about how neurotic the real world is. I don't really think it's dysfunctional families that are (completely) to blame here. I think it's more the fact that we're living in a constantly shifting world - one that changes quicker than we can develop the rules and etiquette for it.

Rareboy often bemoans the use of "text machines". But to younger folks, they text far more often than they phone (or even talk face to face). To me, texting is just a tool, like a hammer. A hammer can be used to build a house, or it could be used to kill a man. Similarly, you can text on a cell phone to say "I'll meet you out front in 15 minutes", or you can try to actually build a meaningful relationship via text message. One is using the tool correctly, and the other isn't. And it isn't the "text machine"'s fault, or even the user's fault. I understand why they use text to talk to someone they're interested in - it adds a layer of distance. It's a lot easier to flirt and then "play it off" via text than by phone or in person. I'm sure when people start communicating via telephone, they were warned that they shouldn't "trust" anything said over the phone, either.

The real problem is - texting is still a very new phenomenon. We haven't quite learned all the ins and outs of it. We're still building up "chat etiquette", and so we're stuck with a bunch of questions like "He didn't write back - is this normal? Is this rude? What do I do?" And of course, the answer is that there is no answer. It might be normal for him, it might be rude, and there's no clear answer what to do. Which is why we suggest moving things over to a realm where there IS a clear-defined etiquette, and answers are a lot less likely to be cryptic.

Of course, by the time we develop text etiquette, nobody will use that old-fashioned technology anymore.

In regards to x-cess, I don't think I take it personal when the OP chooses not to take my advice. Because that's all it is - it's advice, not binding arbitration. It only becomes annoying when they choose not to heed my advice...but keep asking for advice, anyway. And that's when it becomes more like this "can I get an amen" thread I mentioned above.

"Should I seduce my straight friend?"
"No, you shouldn't."
"Anyone else have any advice for me?"
"You really should leave him alone."
"Does anybody else have anything to add?"
"Don't mess with him."
"I think he's making eyes at me. What do you guys think?"

I HAVE had OPs say "I think you're wrong, and I'm going to do such and such." In which case, I say "I do think you're making a mistake, but here's hoping you aren't. Good luck." It's only when they keep fishing for approval that I break out the scones.

And rareboy nudged up against another common theme here. Many people seem to want reward-without-risk. They want their possibly gay friend to know that THEY're gay and interested, but they need to know if the friend is gay and interested first. They want the hot one-night-stand with a stranger, but then don't understand where the awkwardness and stalker-like behavior came from afterwards. I don't know about anybody else, but I learned pretty quick that decisions came with opportunity costs. Eating that pasta could give me heartburn. Investing in the penny stocks could make me rich, or I could kiss that money goodbye. And hooking up with a stranger could be a porn scene come true, or it could be a nightmare that ten bars of Lava soap couldn't scrub away. Yeah, sometimes it'd be nice to know. But the reason the victory is so sweet is BECAUSE of the gamble. If everybody won a jackpot in Vegas, they wouldn't be interesting at all.

Lex

 

[Reality101]

^That's a great post! I agree with it in its entirety

yes, its sometimes frustrating if people "just dont get it". but we need to check ourselves: are we still being constructive, or are we just as addicted to the drama and the need to be right as some of the ops in question?

often, the best advice is "jeez, just relax." maybe we should do exactly that sometimes.

This as well.

 

[Lube]

The biggest problem with giving advice online is that we have to assume that the OP has both an honest appraisal of himself, and an accurate view/interpretation of what's going on around him.

And as we all know, that's rarely the case in real life.

I feel like I spend most of my time here trying to get guys to acknowlegdge the obvious reality which is all around them, but which they refuse to accept.

I really want to start off most replies with, " Hell-o?!"