Do closet cases attract closet cases?

[G-Lexington]

>>>Why isn't that perfectly friendly receptionist your best friend?

A host of reasons, or sometimes no reason at all. I've been co-workers with some people for years and not been friends with them...and then suddenly, we find ourselves chatting at work or at a work function, and a friendship develops. Sometimes it's as simple as both of you finally being receptive to the idea.

If someone isn't my friend, generally it's because I've shut them out. Either because I don't like something about them - real or imagined - or because, when I'm in their proximity, I simply don't have my feelers out.

I don't think your observations are totally off-base. I do think that we can and do "reach for the familiar". But you seem to be taking quite a leap. That because of this, if X is in the closet, anybody X befriends will be a closet case, and if X starts wondering about friend Y, he can stop wondering, because Y is gay. Sure, closet cases can have other closet cases as friends. But I don't think they seek them out - not even unconsciously. I think it's a case of "so as for me, so as for all".

Lex

 

[Lube]

And their male friends tend to be gay, gay-acting, or closet cases in my experience.

I don't think your observations are totally off-base. I do think that we can and do "reach for the familiar". But you seem to be taking quite a leap. That because of this, if X is in the closet, anybody X befriends will be a closet case, and if X starts wondering about friend Y, he can stop wondering, because Y is gay.

I didn't say anybody. I said tends. But I think we're on the same page.

Sure, closet cases can have other closet cases as friends. But I don't think they seek them out - not even unconsciously.

I agree, it would be pretty tough to do unconsciously; perhaps they/we do it subconsciously.

 

[Lube]

I've been in denial all along!

I watch NASCAR religiously, enjoy a good beer (or even a bad beer), drive a Mustang GT and loooove the loud noise the engine makes, my fanciest attire is currently a plain T-shirt and jeans, have few gay friends, and currently sleep on the floor of my studio apartment because I'm too cheap to buy a new inflatable mattress.

My God, I'm straight! Oh but I guess I used to own a Subaru WRX, so that's pretty gay.


For real, though, I'm NOT the exception to the rule. You know how to tell if someone is gay? When they tell you "I'm gay."

But as anyone who reads the Coming Out forum for any length of time sees, so many bi/gay men refuse--absolutely refuse--to say "I'm gay".

Subarus are pretty damn gay--and even more lesbian (you don't have bumper stickers on it, do you? LOL). And while the Mustang didn't make the top 10 list of most researched cars on gaywheels.com, you'll see that sporty performance cars are most of the list. So it fits right in.

You may watch NASCAR and dress in straight men's clothes, but your gallery here on JUB is pretty dang gay. And what you guys need to realize, is that I am not using 'gay' as a slur here. I call myself pretty dang gay!* To me, it's an issue of pride--being who you are.

Nothing wrong with that at all. Just realize you're doing it. And other people see it. Accept it. Embrace it. Live it.

*--Anyone who uses as many italics and bold and emoticons and exclamation points as I do has to be pretty dang gay!

 

[Lube]

I have friends from work that I have hung out with that are republican bible thumpers. If they knew I were gay, they wouldn't invite me out. One of them, their family ostracized their uncle for living a gay lifestyle.

And you're OK with that?

Why do you hang out with these people if they are against the very essence of what you love? How do you justify that to yourself? What does your gut feel like inside when they discuss gay issues? (Those aren't rhetorical questions.)

 

[KingofFaeries]

Why isn't that perfectly friendly receptionist your best friend?

Cuz she has a pimple on her left ankle that looks like richard nixon.....

Why do you hang out with these people if they are against the very essence of what you love? How do you justify that to yourself? What does your gut feel like inside when they discuss gay issues?

Ok I gotta say this, yes he probably has some issue with them doing that to the gay uncle, but really why are you judging him based on someone else's actions. As you say alot of gays don't want to be out, so he's just keeping himself in the closet. But really whatever his reason the people at the core are not fundamental gay bashers. I hate to admit but at his core George W Bush probably isn't a bad guy. Misguided but not evil. .... Honestly.

 

[bounder]

should've hijacked that other thread....

 

[Muscles4daze]

Perhaps you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying.

When I say I'm pretty gay, I don't mean I squeal about Madonna and keep up on the latest celebrity gossip and lisp from my 90-pound, tall, hairless frame. But I do like the arts and 80's music and my Vespa scooter and bicycling and my Mac and iPhone and Volkswagen Jetta. Any one of those things does not make me gay, but put them all together and that's pretty damn gay! My bf/partner is very handsome and muscular and you probably couldn't tell just by looking at him. But he loves Ella Fitzgerald and Broadway soundtracks and knows the color of Gracie Mansion and has a poodle and drives a Jeep Wrangler for god's sake! LOL. You'd have to be blind or in denial to not realize he's gay.

Also, I'm not saying gay men seek out gay men as friends. And I'm not saying friends are all clones of each other.

What I am saying is that people tend to aggregate around other people who share similar world views, similar views on politics (in a broad sense) and similar views on religion (I am not saying that Catholics don't hang out with Presbyterians or Jews, but more like people who are so-so about going to church every week tend to hang out with similarly-minded people, and über-religious people tend to hang out together, etc.). Especially close friends.

I am painting in broad swaths--not specifics about which sports team you like or who's your favorite actor.

It's funny that gay men here on JUB keep insisting on how straight-acting their friends are. A high school friend of mine (a lesbian) and I recently got together for the first time in ages. We reminisced about high school (good and bad) and asked each other about who we thought was gay or lesbian (no one was out back then: not a single person). And you know what? We came up with pretty much identical lists.

And so many people from my past have turned out to be gay or lesbian now. It's like we see something in each other subconsciously--we seek out our 'differentness'.

And you meet the families of your gay friends, and they're the only out person in the family. And you look at the family and think: OMG, there is so much gayness in this family, it just screams out! (Many studies have shown gayness is inherited. You're not the only one in your family.)

And you see it in 10-year old kids playing/fighting. They can pick out the "faggy" kid in 10 seconds. And yet here we are, gay adult men, saying it's impossible to say who's gay and who's straight. So how do kids figure it out?

It's like JUBbers are that guy from the British comedy Little Britain: I'm the only gay in this village!

Really? I don't think so. Open your eyes.

Lube I understand what you are saying completely. I think a lot of times gay men (even closet cases) have characteristics, even if they are very subtle that will lead another gay man to question their sexuality. The average straight person probably won't be able to pick up on these characteristics, but another gay man will, and that's because we see these same characteristics in ourselves.

 

[AngelFromAbove]

Lube I understand what you are saying completely. I think a lot of times gay men (even closet cases) have characteristics, even if they are very subtle that will lead another gay man to question their sexuality. The average straight person probably won't be able to pick up on these characteristics, but another gay man will, and that's because we see these same characteristics in ourselves.

What are these characteristics? Are they stereotypical behaviors that some gay men have reinforced? Or are they physical characteristics that they possess which causes closet cases to question their sexuality?

 

[TX-Beau]

I don't want to hijack another thread, so I'm reposting here, with additional comments:

Originally Posted by Lube



Well those statistics make sense only in terms of random interactions.

But we're never talking about random interactions. We're talking about (best) friends and roommates, usually.

And despite all the "I'm straight acting" talk, most gay men are pretty darn gay (myself included). And their male friends tend to be gay, gay-acting, or closet cases in my experience.

I mean, most straight guys are pretty darn boring.

But seriously, people tend to befriend people most like themselves. There are always exceptions, but I think most gay guys who question their friends' or roommates' sexuality have a reason to believe they are gay, bi, or closet cases.

Now, that doesn't mean that these friends or roommates are capable of dealing with their sexuality--and may remain closet cases for their entire life--but it's just silly to assume that they're straight.

Because they're probably gay.

Seems to me you’ve got a couple of issues all tied up in here.

Issue 1

Is he really gay?

Practical application. The closet case gay man himself, who may be comfortable enough to come in here and anonymously confess he likes guys, but who usually does this by calling himself bi. Do all of you remember the closet? All that frustrated sexual energy and loneliness? Small wonder that these guys start projecting – and yes it is projection in the majority of cases – these feelings onto their closest available outlet; especially if they have a good friendship in the first place.

The gay guy ignores the girlfriend or calls her a beard, he insists their straight relationship will die anyway, he hyper analyzes everything the straight guy does, invents meaning for what the straight guy says, and cherishes every touch as a veiled proposition. We take these guys at their word in here usually, but really all we hear is incredibly one sided, and what the guy is telling us, is what he thinks, with proof he interpreted. This is usually completely in the gay guy’s mind, and when he finally can’t stand it anymore, he says something, which causes drama, and awkwardness, and sometimes loss of friendship. This is incredibly common in here. Not because all of these “friends,” are secretly gay, but because the guys posting about them want them to be so very badly. We all sympathize. we've all been there, but that doesn't affect reality at all unfortunately.

Side two, even if you come across a curious straight guy, or bi guy living a straight life, the chances that he’s going to start dating you are really pretty slim. Why? Because it’s far easier to blow off some vague curiosities than it is to run the gay gauntlet, and if you’re perfectly happy with women, why bother.

Issue Two.

The Closet.

It’s been my experience that the guys who actually start expressing a gay/bi side do so because it’s pretty damn strong. They can’t ignore it, they’re NOT just as happy with women, and it freaks the fuck out of them. We’ve all been there. So two closet cases meet? Will they gravitate towards each other, probably – but if and only if they find each other attractive – in which case they’re both playing the same hyper – analyze game. I guarantee you though that if they don’t like each other, or they don’t find each other attractive, they will not somehow find each other like magnets. I suspect that there are far more closet cases we never notice than there are ones we do – for that precise reason.

And if these two who magically found each other manage to angst themselves into bed? Will they ride off into the sunset? Hell no. They’re both in the closet. Chances are higher in my opinion that in this situation years will go by until one of them grabs some sack and starts coming out, which will freak the other one out, and he’ll run, if they’re sleeping together or not.

People in the closet are hiding from their own gayness. I doubt seriously that they’ll consciously cultivate people they think are gay, unless they’re interested in that person.

That’s my opinion anyway.

 

[youngnihilist]

You're right Lube, and even the most "masc" gay guys I can tell are gay a mile away. They can have big muscles, a masculine look and even swagger, but the moment they open their voice.. reveal their taste of music, style, pop culture... sorry, you can't hide yourself. Not that there's anything wrong with it. It's attractive to hear that little lisp, the taste in Britney is kinda cute as is the way you prance around when drunk :-D

 

[Lube]

TX-Beau, there is a lot of truth in your post, although I don't quite agree with everything. I guess my hope is that, as society changes and grows, coming and expressing your gay side is easier so that there is less reason for crazy guys to behave crazily and avoid expressing their gayness. Gee, that sounds awkward.

Youngnihilist, your post made me laugh so much! I know what you mean, LOL.

 

[maxpowr9]

Okay. I don't usually do this sort of thing. It is supposed to be humorous but there is definitely truth in it that especially relates to this topic. It is from my Onion calendar for today.


Sources: Barista Not Actually Flirting With You

SAN FRANCISCO--Though she greets you every morning with a smile, sometimes chats with you, and makes sure the chocolate syrup is evenly distributed throughout your mocha, Starbucks barista Molly Sopel is in truth not flirting with you, and is instead simply a pleasant person and conscientious employee, coffeeshop sources reported Monday.
"The best part about Molly is that she laughs and talks with everyone," said manager Mike Dezort, who confirmed that Sopel asks if you want room for milk as a courtesy, and because of the physical attraction you think exists between the two of you. "I always overhear her calling customers 'sweetie', which people seem to like."
A Starbucks regular who frequently watches you order from Sopel is reportedly "shocked" that you still haven't realized that she only calls you by your first name when you pay with your debit card.

FYI, any sociologist will tell you this also: "Biology aside, there are NO inherent differences between men and women". The same can be said about gay men and straight men.

 

[erobert]

There's a lot of stereotypes and generalizations being thrown around in here. Why are Jeep Wranglers gay? Go to Wrigleyville and try telling some of the frat boys there Wrangler is gay. What even makes a car gay? Is it the styling?

I can see how a combination of factors can indicate something though.

And most of the world is straight?? I think there's more gay and bi men and women out there then we will ever know.

This is a complicated and sometimes touchy subject. Now, I agree with Lex, TX and you're also right to a degree. People are drawn to others who represent some part of themselves or are somewhat similar to each other. I'm not going to get into new age "vibes" or being on the same "wavelengths" but at least in my case I found people who become my friends share at least some interests that I do.

That only makes sense- like attracts like. Though, do they share the same interest in the same sex as I do? I'd say about half of them.

People like others that compliment or are similar to themselves. Though, I attract all types of people and being quiet and freindly but people have told me things and their actions indicate things to me. (My gaydar is usually correct but when it's wrong I'm really wrong)

I don't know if it's something about my personality, something about them or both. The people who told or indicated things to me weren't closet cases or were in the coming out process. Their gaydar picks up on you when you first meet and if you're similar they don't feel so alone (if they're in the closet or are in the process of coming out)

Though, if you're comfortable being you you'll attract people who are comfortable being themselves- gay, bi and straight. This is also the 21st century when times are changing so people are beginning to become more open minded about things- even college kids and teenagers.

You attract who you attract, I'm glad that I attract level headed well adjusted people who are (mostly) comfortable with themselves. You're right, but there are other factors which draw people to you... it's a bit hard to explain. I know what you're saying though.

 

[Alex00]

I get all the main points throughout this topic, but I just fear of one possible distortion of the information given.
The thing is, when you say "this is a gayness signal" and "this is a X signal" you should be aware of the relativity of that statement. No, I'm not coming with the same problem of saying that "well, if you've got a subaru then you're gay". I know everyone gets that things are not like that. To be more specific, you come to a conclusion about someone after gathering a bunch of this famous signals. That's clear for me.
The thing is, even when you collect all this pieces of info, they always have important chances to fail. Why? Because this signals are different in different cultures, places, nations, families, etc. While driving a certain car may be added to a "gay signals list" in a specific city or country, it may be a signal of style or bad taste in another region. We associate different objects to different behaviours and people, so stating adamantly that something is a gay signal may be wrong for the other person.
What's more, trying to project the idea of one person/attitude over one object is, although natural, something that only contributes to the fixation of stereotypes as a simplification of human diversity. Let's try to avoid that. If people is constantly pushing the barriers of society rules and ideas, that means that attitudes will not stay the same neither. One proof of this is the typical crush of the gay guy over the feminine, but straight man. Is evidence of the relativity that signals may have nowadays that identities are a mixture of blurry elements.

 

[DarkHelios]

I think that the problem here is the assumption that certain traits are more prevalent among gay guys than straight guys. Maybe there are some, but it's pretty much impossible to prove it unless you have some way to be 100% certain about someone's sexuality.

Also, the fact that there's significant disagreement on what traits are "gay" in the first place. Your post is the first I've ever heard that suggested iPhones, biking and Jettas were gay.

I think that assuming that they're gay is just as silly as assuming that they're straight. Sillier actually, because if the statistics are even slightly accurate, odds are that they're straight.

 

[Lube]

There's a lot of stereotypes and generalizations being thrown around in here. Why are Jeep Wranglers gay? Go to Wrigleyville and try telling some of the frat boys there Wrangler is gay. What even makes a car gay? Is it the styling?

Well, I don't make this stuff up:

VW is most-researched car at gaywheels.com.

Jetta is voted #1 gay car at Car Talk.

Jeep Wrangler is #4 gay car at Car Talk.

A car for every gay stage.

 

[Willie Boy]

There's a lot of stereotypes and generalizations being thrown around in here. Why are Jeep Wranglers gay? Go to Wrigleyville and try telling some of the frat boys there Wrangler is gay. What even makes a car gay? Is it the styling?

I can see how a combination of factors can indicate something though.

And most of the world is straight?? I think there's more gay and bi men and women out there then we will ever know.

This is a complicated and sometimes touchy subject. Now, I agree with Lex, TX and you're also right to a degree. People are drawn to others who represent some part of themselves or are somewhat similar to each other. I'm not going to get into new age "vibes" or being on the same "wavelengths" but at least in my case I found people who become my friends share at least some interests that I do.

That only makes sense- like attracts like. Though, do they share the same interest in the same sex as I do? I'd say about half of them.

People like others that compliment or are similar to themselves. Though, I attract all types of people and being quiet and freindly but people have told me things and their actions indicate things to me. (My gaydar is usually correct but when it's wrong I'm really wrong)

I don't know if it's something about my personality, something about them or both. The people who told or indicated things to me weren't closet cases or were in the coming out process. Their gaydar picks up on you when you first meet and if you're similar they don't feel so alone (if they're in the closet or are in the process of coming out)

Though, if you're comfortable being you you'll attract people who are comfortable being themselves- gay, bi and straight. This is also the 21st century when times are changing so people are beginning to become more open minded about things- even college kids and teenagers.

You attract who you attract, I'm glad that I attract level headed well adjusted people who are (mostly) comfortable with themselves. You're right, but there are other factors which draw people to you... it's a bit hard to explain. I know what you're saying though.

Have you never heard the phrase "opposiyes attract"?

 

[erobert]

Yes, opposites do attract. That's what I meant by complimentary and that's something that is not considered in the original post along with numerous other factors.

It would be very boring if everyone sought out people who are exactly like them, there would be no balance in friendships/relationships. Opposites and likes attract. Everyone is basically the same but yet everyone is different, if that makes any sense.

 

[spencer]

And you're OK with that?

Why do you hang out with these people if they are against the very essence of what you love? How do you justify that to yourself? What does your gut feel like inside when they discuss gay issues? (Those aren't rhetorical questions.)

how does anyone live with anything they can't control. tolerance. I look for the good in people not the bad. guess there was no rebuttal on my actual point. don't bother me one bit, proves it actually.

 

[AngelFromAbove]

Well, I don't make this stuff up:

VW is most-researched car at gaywheels.com.

Jetta is voted #1 gay car at Car Talk.

Jeep Wrangler is #4 gay car at Car Talk.

A car for every gay stage.

What is sad is that you're probably serious about these sources of information.