Do Dutch Perversions Hurt Gay Rights?

[PabloZed]

Amsterdam is known for legal drug use and legalized prostitution and in some corners is heralded for gay rights. Indeed, even supposedly illegal activity such as public sex has been sanctioned by authorities.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...y-cruising-areas/story-fn3dxity-1225704716041

At first blush one might cheer this type of move by the authorities to acknowledge gay practices, but I wonder if this does more harm than good. For example, Dutch pedophiles formed their own political party and a court sanctioned it. Their platform was to lower the age of consent to 12! Freedom to organize and be active should be afforded to all, but when taken to the extreme you get this type of perversion which automatically becomes associated with homosexuals. It is no coincidence that the Dutch and Germans were the market for much of the child porn made in the Czech Republic.

It is this slide toward Gomorrah that buffets the arguments by anti-gay activists who oppose any expansion of gay rights. They can argue, with evidence, that liberalizing sexual rights and morals leads to the types of perversions that are evident in Holland and other parts of Europe. Indeed, even on this forum there are those that have argued that incest is a legitimate sex act. I am not attempting to justify arguments against gay rights. US gays should not be held responsible for Dutch pedophiles. But, just as happens around here, people are often judged in groups. If Dutch pedophiles can organize politically what is to say that German pedophiles won't do so (if they haven't already)?

I know this is going to make some people uncomfortable, especially pedophiles. I am sure someone will try to stifle this conversation, maybe by moving the thread somewhere else or deleting it altogether. But at least then we will know that person's proclivities and so will law enforcement.

 

[levenshulme31]

Surely all the Dutch authorities are doing is acknowledging that, while cruising in parks may be illegal, it happens (seemingly with the full consent of those taking part). Putting up warning signs merely warns those who might be offended that it may be going on in these areas of the park.

It's quite a leap from their tolerating that which is technically criminal (but arguably victimless) and advocating on behalf of paedophiles.

The signs could have positive or negative effects. They may be of use to potential cruisers who lack a sense of direction, but they may also be signposts for gaybashers (which may be the intention of the authorities as a way of preventing cruising)

 

[Lukeee]

[I think I went totally off topic in this post... sorry ]

Paedophiles should have all the same rights as everyone else. A paedophile is a person who is attracted to children, yes? It doesn't mean that they have done anything wrong. We should try and help them to prevent themselves from abusing a child instead of waiting for it to happen then locking them away or killing them. I guess that will never happen because very few people who are attracted to children would be brave enough to try and get help. Isn't paedophilia classed as an illness or something? It makes sense to try and help them not to do it. If we all stopped being so horrible about it maybe we could get these people to say 'I have a problem' then we could prevent it from happening. I don't think there is any way to get rid of the attracting (yet) but we could make sure they stay away from children.

I'm not trying to say we shouldn't be angry when a child is taken advantage of, I just think we shouldn't be so violent towards these people so that they can get help without being afraid that someone will hurt them.

... I don't know if that would work but it makes sense in my head.



As for this hurting gay rights, I don't know. It is sad that some people judge all gay people on how some gay people act, but it is unfair to ask 'some' gay people to stfu and pretend to be someone they are not so that we can have our rights. We just have to find a way to show them that we are not all like that.

 

[PabloZed]

yes and in America there is NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love Association, which advocates relationships between men and young boys.

the point is, in every country there is a small perverted subsection. it is unfair to tarnish the majority.

and so what if prostitution is legalized? prostitution happens OPENLY in almost all westernized societies. there are websites advertising hookers, straight and gay.

the Netherlands was progressive, and at least protect sex workers. it's an HONEST approach.

but to be honest, what all this has to do with gay rights, i'm still not sure.

Surely all the Dutch authorities are doing is acknowledging that, while cruising in parks may be illegal, it happens (seemingly with the full consent of those taking part). Putting up warning signs merely warns those who might be offended that it may be going on in these areas of the park.

It's quite a leap from their a tolerating that which is technically criminal (but arguably victimless) and advocating on behalf of paedophiles.

I agree with the point about prostitution and protecting the workers. But in general I think we give majorities too much credit by asking how the two matters are related and whether its a leap. Our collective histories are full of such leaps and they are going on today. "Pulling the plug on grandma" is quite a leap from healthcare reform in the US, but a leading US senator said that. As much as people hate its mention, Hitler said all the German people needed was more living space. Surely he didn't mean the whole fucking continent? That would be a leap.

 

[PabloZed]

We should try and help them to prevent themselves from abusing a child instead of waiting for it to happen then locking them away or killing them. I guess that will never happen because very few people who are attracted to children would be brave enough to try and get help. Isn't paedophilia classed as an illness or something? It makes sense to try and help them not to do it. If we all stopped being so horrible about it maybe we could get these people to say 'I have a problem' then we could prevent it from happening. I don't think there is any way to get rid of the attracting (yet) but we could make sure they stay away from children.

Your point is well taken and yes it is an illness. But my point is that instead of seeking help they want to legalize it and those who hate gays will say if they try it there they will try it everywhere.

 

[bulge]

Amsterdam is known for legal drug use and legalized prostitution and in some corners is heralded for gay rights. Indeed, even supposedly illegal activity such as public sex has been sanctioned by authorities.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...y-cruising-areas/story-fn3dxity-1225704716041

At first blush one might cheer this type of move by the authorities to acknowledge gay practices, but I wonder if this does more harm than good. For example, Dutch pedophiles formed their own political party and a court sanctioned it. Their platform was to lower the age of consent to 12! Freedom to organize and be active should be afforded to all, but when taken to the extreme you get this type of perversion which automatically becomes associated with homosexuals. It is no coincidence that the Dutch and Germans were the market for much of the child porn made in the Czech Republic.

It is this slide toward Gomorrah that buffets the arguments by anti-gay activists who oppose any expansion of gay rights. They can argue, with evidence, that liberalizing sexual rights and morals leads to the types of perversions that are evident in Holland and other parts of Europe. Indeed, even on this forum there are those that have argued that incest is a legitimate sex act. I am not attempting to justify arguments against gay rights. US gays should not be held responsible for Dutch pedophiles. But, just as happens around here, people are often judged in groups. If Dutch pedophiles can organize politically what is to say that German pedophiles won't do so (if they haven't already)?

I know this is going to make some people uncomfortable, especially pedophiles. I am sure someone will try to stifle this conversation, maybe by moving the thread somewhere else or deleting it altogether. But at least then we will know that person's proclivities and so will law enforcement.

Your post only proves one thing: that the Dutch are the most virtuous people in the world.

 

[braex27]

If heterosexual perversions (and there are many) do not impinge upon heterosexuals' rights, why should gay perversions impinge on gay rights?

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Amsterdam is known for legal drug use and legalized prostitution and in some corners is heralded for gay rights. Indeed, even supposedly illegal activity such as public sex has been sanctioned by authorities.

Having sex in public isn't forbidden by Dutch Law.
What is forbidden is disturbing public order by doing it where other people can see it.

This basically means that it's illegal for the Dutch Police to fine or deport you if you hang around a cruising area.

 

[3nipples]

How is pedophilia a gay perversion? Aren't most of them straight?

 

[PabloZed]

How is pedophilia a gay perversion? Aren't most of them straight?

Yes. But my point is that "sexual perversions" are all lumped together and if opponents of gay rights can find a way to label homosexuality as just another perversion then it harms the fight for gay rights. This is not a new or novel argument. In the US opponents of gay marriage have argued that allowing gays to marry will lead to a push to marry children and animals. Yes, it sounds absolutely crazy. But guess what - US Senators have made this argument on the floor of the senate. Think about the uproar about Adam Lambert's kiss. A kiss, not a crotch grab, not a blow job, not an anal probe - a simple kiss between two consenting adults. I am still not sure why exactly it was controversial which is rather frightening because if something benign can be censored how can we possibly achieve equality?

 

[TickTockMan]

Funny OP. You have changed your mind within days.



I wasn't going to respond, but figured what the hell. This thread is just a distraction thread

 

[midnight81]

Other peoples' perversions aren't hurting gay rights. The bigotry and homophobia of ignorant and hateful people is what hurts gay rights. If it isn't Amsterdam and their liberal laws, it's the Bible or the old "next they'll want to marry a goat" cliched argument or whatever else the assholes who hate gay people think will convince people to support their hate.

Instead of worrying so much how one country's laws are going to affect gay rights (laws which have nothing to do with gay rights, by the way; legalized pot and prostitution is a whole other issue for the conservatives to get their panties in a twist over) we should be thinking of other, more productive ways to help ignorant homophobes overcome their hatred and fear of the unknown (in this case, gay people) and fighting for our own civil rights, which shouldn't be a matter of public opinion or someone else's religious belief.

Rallying against someone else's cause just because you're worried it will help yours does nothing but spread more fear and hatred, and alienate people who could (or in Amsterdam's case, ARE) act as allies in our fight for equality. A little pot and a little cash/sex exchange is not going to hurt the gay cause, and if it does, it's because the people who are using it against us are purse-grabbing idiots and this is just their justification du jour.

Next they'll be saying we are killing the environment with all our hair products and moisturizing products. Oops, did I just give them more ammunition?

 

[boiseboy]

I dont think so. Whenever I hear people talking about amsterdam, it never involved homosexuals.
Its usually a discussion like "its so dirty" blah blah. Naked people in the window.

 

[PabloZed]

I dont think so. Whenever I hear people talking about amsterdam, it never involved homosexuals.
Its usually a discussion like "its so dirty" blah blah. Naked people in the window.

You are onto something there, which is that the culture of the girls in the windows and the pot cafes has seeped into the general consciousness. That took time. These new Dutch perversions of a pedophile political party and government sanctioned public sex will take time to seep into the public consciousness, but it will.

Consider the republican senator who was caught soliciting sex in a Minnesota airport bathroom. This is conduct that most gays are pretty familiar with and a lot of closeted republicans probably engage in. Imagine if the republican governor of Minnesota decided that since so many men solicit sex in that airport bathroom, it would be good to simply put up signs warning that you might get solicited for sex or might witness it. Of course that would never happen, but that is a parallel to what happened in Amsterdam.

 

[Txgoodoldboy]

Last night, on the Joy Behar Show, Rosanne Barr stated that all pedophiles should be executed with the first offense. Joy Behar went along. I was taken aback at this. Even though, I don't think pedophiles can be rehabilitated. I would lock them up and throw away the key. I think they have a right to organize, but not act. Yes, it hurts the gay cause.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

You are onto something there, which is that the culture of the girls in the windows and the pot cafes has seeped into the general consciousness. That took time. These new Dutch perversions of a pedophile political party and government sanctioned public sex will take time to seep into the public consciousness, but it will.

Consider the republican senator who was caught soliciting sex in a Minnesota airport bathroom. This is conduct that most gays are pretty familiar with and a lot of closeted republicans probably engage in. Imagine if the republican governor of Minnesota decided that since so many men solicit sex in that airport bathroom, it would be good to simply put up signs warning that you might get solicited for sex or might witness it. Of course that would never happen, but that is a parallel to what happened in Amsterdam.

I love how you're trying to spread this sentiment on a gay porn forum...

 

[Telstra]

"Dutch Perversions"

wondering who did they hurt over there?
I'm sure they have laws to prevent children from getting hurt.

So no, Dutch issue is there local issue.

 

[ChickenGuy]

Hmmmm - you do seem to have something against the Dutch.

A few days ago, you were blaming them for assisting in the atrocities of World War II.

Have you some personal issue with the country?



I for one think that the Dutch HELP gay rights, by showing us an example of a sexually open society, relaxed and mature. It's a hell of a lot better than some countries I could mention, where gay rights parades are condemned and attacked with violence by neo-Nazi thugs....

 

[Telstra]

Hmmmm - you do seem to have something against the Dutch.

A few days ago, you were blaming them for assisting in the atrocities of World War II.

Have you some personal issue with the country?



I for one think that the Dutch HELP gay rights, by showing us an example of a sexually open society, relaxed and mature. It's a hell of a lot better than some countries I could mention, where gay rights parades are condemned and attacked with violence by neo-Nazi thugs....

Unless we know PabloZed's background,
We don't know what his personal issue is against Holland.

 

[PabloZed]

Hmmmm - you do seem to have something against the Dutch.

A few days ago, you were blaming them for assisting in the atrocities of World War II.

Have you some personal issue with the country?



I for one think that the Dutch HELP gay rights, by showing us an example of a sexually open society, relaxed and mature. It's a hell of a lot better than some countries I could mention, where gay rights parades are condemned and attacked with violence by neo-Nazi thugs....

I was wondering whether the chicken was the official bird of Scotland or code for a chickenhawk who would defend pedophilia. Scotland Yard would know.