Do we 'really' need a gay community?

[Lube]

In all instances of the definition, I do not see your idea of this community. We do not all live together, we don't share a common location, we don't have a common history, we don't have a common social, economic and political interest,...I simply don't see your definition of community up there.

Does it have to say "common sexual orientation" in the dictionary? Do you know what a political, economic, or social interest is?

• Gays have a common political interest to protect the rights of gays to have sex with other men without being jailed.
• Gays have a common economic interest to protect against economic/job/housing discrimination against gays.
• Gays have a common social interest to protect our right to assemble, have fun, be represented in organized religions, etc.

I guess I should repeat myself...regardless of how other people see things, I decide for my own free person what groups and communities I am, and am not, part of.

You are confusing a community with a group:

• All people of Irish ancestry are part of the Irish community; they are not necessarily members of the [SIZE=-1]Hibernian Benevolent Society.
  [/SIZE]
• [SIZE=-1]All people who believe the government should aid the poor are members of a community of people deemed social liberals; they are not necessarily members of the Democratic Party.[/SIZE]
• [SIZE=-1]All men who are sexually attracted to other men are members of the gay community; they are not necessarily members of the Equal Rights Campaign.
  [/SIZE]

I think you fail to see the difference.

 

[Soilwork]

OK, look... we're not all freinds, we're not all common aside from a shared orientation, but YOU come up with a better word to describe us?

The Borg?

 

[trydegrau]

I see you are from Iceland.

Canada, actually. Iceland's where I'd like to be, but I put it there to avert random pick up PMs.

You were very selective about your use of Merriam's definition, I noticed you left the rest off. You are part of society at large.

Here's the rest if it serves any purpose.

2 : society at large
3 a : joint ownership or participation <community of goods> b : common character : LIKENESS <community of interests> c : social activity : FELLOWSHIP d : a social state or condition

I love the part where you keep saying being part of the gay community is like being part of Hiltler's Youth.

Only because people keep telling me that I am in it weather I like it or not. 60 million people died so that we could have our freedoms. I think it's relevant.

there is no cure for being gay

if you want to feel better about it, you probably ought to look for the half full cup instead of the half empty one

you are just like all of us

completely unique creatures who happen to be attracted to members of the same sex.

we support each other because people hate that one aspect of our difference

just relax

you are fine

I didn't mention any cure. I said I am not part of a community, I didn't say I'm not gay.


I think I should derail a bit and show you all a different aspect...
I wouldn't ordinarily post this, but this discussion merits the examples.

I've watched a family member deteriorate into insanity for almost 13 years now. He should be in a hospital, but you know how the canadian health system can be (short on beds). Where was the medical community then? In fact, where was society? I went to go live with and take care of him before I was even old enough to vote, smoke or drink. No community to support me then.

When I was 19, in terms of powder, I snorted a ski resort's worth. Practically everyone turned their backs on me. I locked myself up alone in a room for a month to get off it, very...unpleasant. Again, no community to support me.

Technically, that should put me firmly in the ex-junky community, as well as the family-of-the-mentally-ill community. By most people's logic, I owe something to those communities. I do not. Communities are pretty good at demanding a contribution, and equally as good at remaining under the radar when you need their help. I've come this far alone without the help of any community or individuals, I seriously resent being told that I am part of something now, I sure as hell don't owe anyone or any community, anything. You guys might believe in the ideals of community, I have no such faith.

I don't want to get cross with any of you, so maybe I should just drop it...

 

[trydegrau]

OK, look... we're not all freinds, we're not all common aside from a shared orientation, but YOU come up with a better word to describe us?

The Borg?

Gay guys, individuals. Like I said, I believe there are gay communities, I just don't think there is one cohesive community. And again, that's just my opinion. I'm sure you and everyone else has a different view on this community/these communities.

 

[Soilwork]

Wether you want to be a part of the community, you are.

Sorry, but you can leave your hometown, but you can't leave being gay (Ted Hassert aside, I guess).

You may not like it, and you may not like gay people, drag queens, pride parades, disco, leather, Madonna, anal sex, snuggling, fashion, dancing, style over substance, bath houses or the DNC, but you're part of the gay community because you're gay.

 

[ixthrock]

Because I object to the idea that willing or not I am part of a community

Duly noted. Quaint, and, as someone else expressed, "how punk rock."
You do realise, don't you, that you can't be a non-conformist unless you wear the proper uniform?

I will be equally as deep with anyone and everyone I chose to speak to.

Is it because the rest of us are all clones?

I am here to interact with other gay men, I am not here to be part of any community, interaction and discussion doesn't make me part of a community, If I talk to a black man or men, does it make me part of their community? If I can't be here and simply talk to guys without adhering to a community, than I'll leave.

As you have posted, and others have responded, and you have addressed those responses, and I have now joined into this dialogue, I consider you a member of the JUB community. Maybe I'm saying this because I want you to really consider my words, but maybe I'm just saying it because I'm hoping for a nice ass shot.

if we really want to stop freaking out every homophobe on the planet we need to stop existing

Brief, acute, and painfully funny. I'm so glad you're still with us

People want others to get to know them for who they are and not assumed to be something else because of a characteristic they possess... they rebel against the idea of a gay community because out in the real world they feel they are being judged for the behaviors of others in the community (such as the gay pride marches, etc.). I don't like being judged that way either but I attribute it mostly to the ignorance of the person judging.

A very lucid observation.

I haven't been asked for my opinion on anything pertaining to homosexuality,

really! Are you out anywhere? I used to get this all the time, mostly from tweens. I got tired of repeating the preface, "Well, I can't speak for the rest of the homosexuals out there, but what I think/feel/observe is....

I've come to see the term "gay community" as a label that is applied to all gays, I don't necessarily believe the community bit anymore, not when there is this much diversity and opposing views. Most communities usually come to agreements on certain issues, we do not. I would be more inclined to believe in gay communities, I could even eventually chose to be a part of one (say, the punk/goth variety) but a single unifying one? I don't see much evidence of it.

This is what I meant when I spoke in the "g0y" thread about my disbelief in the "gay community." I wholeheartedly agree with the observation of our staggering diversity as an impediment to unification, but I look at this as one of Andreus' proverbial half-full cups. It also puts me at odds with some of Harry Hay's ideas, but I nevertheless proudly proclaim my membership of THIS community: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_faeries

Trydegrau, Have you ever seen "The Prisoner"? Obscure, philosophical, very short-lived british sci-fi series? I think you'd dig it. "I am not a number, I am a FREE MAN!"

be seeing you

 

[Andreus]

yah

yah

yah

i ran away from home when i was 16 and turnede tricks to eat

i fell in love and my first lover was murdered, a victim of a hate crime

i was shot on a job overseas... i lost my career due to it

the young man responsible for taking care of me died in iraq from complications from a fucking infection. he was 16 years old

ik got a fucked up transfusion and i have serious health issues as a result

my only brother may be deported in about six months

but you know what?

i seem to be happier than you are...

alot of the happiness i have has to do with the fact that people care if you let them

some will always be judgemental assholes... theres one cunt here that should be ridden out on a fucking rail and shot for all the shit they create within the JUB comunity, but by and large, i can either focus on the 150 assholes or the 150 kind people who take an honest interest in me.

I dont expect anything from anyone but the ocasional kind word. I dont expect anyone to fix me or hold my hand.

I just behave in a way that earns respect and it is given to me.

that is what community is all about

people that know you good and bad and accept you anyway

like it or not you are part of it

 

[trydegrau]

Wether you want to be a part of the community, you are.

Sorry, but you can leave your hometown, but you can't leave being gay (Ted Hassert aside, I guess).

You may not like it, and you may not like gay people, drag queens, pride parades, disco, leather, Madonna, anal sex, snuggling, fashion, dancing, style over substance, bath houses or the DNC, but you're part of the gay community because you're gay.

I don't understand where people keep getting the impression that I want to leave being gay. The only assertion I keep making is that being gay, and community, are not, TO ME, synonymous.

And I really dont get the second part you posted, my issue is not with individual elements of the community. It's purely coincidental that I dislike some of those things, but my main issue is the fact that the community operates like the borg, incorporating individuals weather they wish to identify with it or not.

yah

yah

yah
[...]

I didn't post that for sympathy, or to have a pissing contest with you. I only posted it to explain why I want nothing to do with any communities. So if you're going to be an insensitive ..., we should stop here.

Duly noted. Quaint, and, as someone else expressed, "how punk rock."
You do realise, don't you, that you can't be a non-conformist unless you wear the proper uniform?
Is it because the rest of us are all clones?
[...]

It's not about non-conformity, everyone claims to be non-conformist. And I assure you, I dont think you are all clones. I don't have a problem with the individuals that make up the community or communities, I simply have a problem with the notion of a community.


Seriously, am I getting through to anyone at all? should I just throw in the towel???

I'm gonna go fetch some cigarettes, I got a contribution to make to the tobacco community...

 

[Andreus]

im not being insensitive

im trying to show you that we all have scars

your story is no more or less painfull than most anyones here

the older gay people had it so fucking hard... you and i cant even imagine it, and yet we have robert marlene, the pianist, NickCole Et Al...to show us that you can be wise instead of bitter if you learn from your pain and reach out to others

thats what its all about

 

[Soilwork]

my issue is not with individual elements of the community. It's purely coincidental that I dislike some of those things, but my main issue is the fact that the community operates like the borg, incorporating individuals weather they wish to identify with it or not.

But we DON'T operate the Borg. I'm totally different from most of the gay men here.

But we're all gay.

All people in the farming community that I grew up in didn't think the same or look the same or act the same but the fact that we lived in the same town and were all a part of that community MADE us a community.

With gay people the boudaries aren't physical, but we're all living gay.

understand?

 

[Swellegant]

In all instances of the definition, I do not see your idea of this community. We do not all live together, we don't share a common location, we don't have a common history, we don't have a common social, economic and political interest,...I simply don't see your definition of community up there.
"If you're gay, ipso facto you're a member of the community."
To reuse an old example, under Hitler, if you grew up in Germany, you were ipso facto part of the Hitler Youth.

See that's my problem, I don't like people telling me what I am a part of, I take care of those decisions for my own person, thank you.

First of all, I don't respect any online dictionary anymore. Bring me the OED and we'll discuss definitions, but I think you and I both know what we're talking about without resorting to Messrs Mirram & Webster.

Second of all, why are you so defensive about this subject, trydegrau? What harm does it do you to admit to being part of a community of which you are clearly a part? What is taken from you when I call you part of the gay community because you are gay? You're here, after all, participating in an online community of gays and gay-friendly bisexuals and straights. Why can't you be a part of it?

Your simile of all Third-Reich Germans belonging to the Hitler Youth as the same as all gays belonging to the gay community is a false simile, and the fallacy is contained in the words used: all Germans belong to the German community, but only if they participate in the Hitler Youth are they Hitler Youth. Now, of course, the overwhelming majority of young Germans during the Third Reich did belong to the Hitler Youth because it was compulsory, and very few wished to rock the boat to such an extent as to defy the Nazis and get themselves and their families sent to a concentration camp. They chose to comply with compulsory participation.

Nevertheless, Germans cannot claim to no longer be part of the German community just because it doesn't suit them. A person born in Germany of German parents and raised in Germany speaking the German language and eating German food in German schools cannot stop being German, not ever; he can move to Australia, speak Bantu, practice Buddhism, eat Thai food and wear a Sari, but he's still a German: his Germanity (if I may coin a word) is an inescapable part of who he is.

In the instance of Gay, you cannot stop being gay, you cannot completely divorce yourself from the gay community because it is who you are. And unless you feel that you chose homosexuality at some time in later life, it is one of the communities of your origin... just as if you were adopted, you are still a genetic part of the family of your origin as well as the family of your upbringing. You can choose to not participate in the family of your origin, but it has nevertheless shaped who you are.

You want to call me a deserter or a sideliner, fine, if that makes ya'll feel better. I know that I am my own person, with freedom of association.

"But you're one of us, nevertheless." You are gay and I am gay, that's all we have in common, I don't have to like or dislike you.

I did not cally you a deserter or a sideliner; I merely pointed out that there are those within the community who are such. People who contribute nothing to the community are leeches, but I do not claim to know whether or not you contribute to your community. All I know about you is what I've read of your opinions here, and that's not enough to judge on (if I were inclined to judge, which I am not).

However, I do say you are part of this community whether you like it or not. Your sexuality, no matter how much you insist it's only a small part of your whole person, has shaped who you are. The desire I see in your posts to dissociate from this part of yourself disturbs me, it makes me think that maybe you're unhappy with yourself. And I don't like to see my fellow creatures unhappy, that's why I argue with you on this point. I don't presume to know you, I am merely reacting to what I do know of you. I'm perfectly willing to be wrong.

Finally, just because you're part of a community does not mean that you have to agree with, or even like, everyone else in that community. To return to the simile of families, I don't agree with my Grandmother's political or religious beliefs, but I love her anyway and I contribute to her well-being, just as she contributes to mine... because we belong to the Manners Family, which is a community of people with one thing in common, plus some shared history and a specific proximity of living in the same house.

And there are parts of my family with whom I would prefer to not be associated. I strongly dislike my mother, I'm not very fond of some of my cousins, and I have an aunt that I actively loathe. But I cannot say that I am no longer part of that family. I'm not an active part of that side of my family, I do not contribute to their well-being nor they to mine; nevertheless I am related to them and always will be, they have shaped me and left their mark on me, just as I have shaped and marked them.

In the gay community, there are whole gangs of people I don't like or with whom I disagree... Log Cabin Republicans, ACTUP, barebackers, snotty club-queens, whatever. I certainly never signed anything promising to be buddies with everyone in the community. But that doesn't make either me or them any less part of the gay community. We are all gay, we are all part of the gay community. That's all there is to it.

If you do not wish to be an active member in the gay community, you needn't be. But if you take advantage of some of the benefits of a community (legal rights, for instance, or group sex) without contributing something to that community, yes I will call you a leech. And though I can't be bothered to look, I'm sure Mirram & Webster would back me up.

So what you are all saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that, being gay = compulsory membership with the gay community = expected to contribute something.

What is this, gay fascism?

By your example, if I align myself with any given political party, it makes me a lifetime supporter, with an expectation to contribute to the party ... This is totally illogical.

Well, you're wrong. I did not say that "being gay = compulsory membership with the gay community"... what I said was being gay = membership with the gay community." It's not compulsory, it just is. Not all dogs are brown dogs, but all dogs are part of the genus canis; not all gays are alike, except in that they're all gay. That's what the gay community is, it exists because it exists, and if you're not an active part of that community, what are you?

I guess I should repeat myself...regardless of how other people see things, I decide for my own free person what groups and communities I am, and am not, part of.

Did I say you have to join a club, pay dues, wear a uniform? Did I say you have to toe the party line, that you have to believe as I believe, that you have to put in X number of hours in community service? No, I said no such thing and would never suggest it. That is fascism.

But did you choose to be born into your family? Or your country? And if you leave your family or country, do you cease to be part of it? Or do you merely cease to be an active part in it?

Even if you don't wish to be, you are part of the gay community, just as you are part of the community of your family, of your nation, of the species homo sapiens... whether you like it or not. We can agree to disagree on the dictionary definition of community, but by my definition (and Mirram & Webster's, defs. 1c, d, and g) you're in it with us, you're part of this community just because you're gay.

You are what you are, you are what you were, and you are what you will be... all at once, no one thing gets replaced by another, no one piece is bigger or more important than the other, no one piece can exist without the other.

 

[Swellegant]

I think I should derail a bit and show you all a different aspect...
I wouldn't ordinarily post this, but this discussion merits the examples.

I've watched a family member deteriorate into insanity for almost 13 years now. He should be in a hospital, but you know how the canadian health system can be (short on beds). Where was the medical community then? In fact, where was society? I went to go live with and take care of him before I was even old enough to vote, smoke or drink. No community to support me then.

When I was 19, in terms of powder, I snorted a ski resort's worth. Practically everyone turned their backs on me. I locked myself up alone in a room for a month to get off it, very...unpleasant. Again, no community to support me.

Technically, that should put me firmly in the ex-junky community, as well as the family-of-the-mentally-ill community. By most people's logic, I owe something to those communities. I do not. Communities are pretty good at demanding a contribution, and equally as good at remaining under the radar when you need their help. I've come this far alone without the help of any community or individuals, I seriously resent being told that I am part of something now, I sure as hell don't owe anyone or any community, anything. You guys might believe in the ideals of community, I have no such faith.

I don't want to get cross with any of you, so maybe I should just drop it...

Okay, I see now where you're coming from with your bitterness about the term "community."

The family member deteriorating into insanity is rough, and I would say that the community of your family and your country failed to support you. Does that mean that they don't exist or that you are no longer part of them? No, it means that they failed you. You contributed to your family without support and that is laudable; members of your family and institutions of your country failed to contribute, and that is wicked.

But when you were blowing all that snow up your nose, what were you contributing? You never hurt a friend, stole from a family member, frightened a stranger all that time? And when you decided to clean up, to whom did you reach out? Did you join a twelve-step program? Did you seek a free counseling service? Did you call up the Salvation Army? Did they turn their collective back on you? Or were you so embittered by your experience with your family member that you decided you had to do that on your own, too? And if you decided on your own that you had to detox alone in your room, is that the fault of the ex-junkie community, or was it your choice to not participate in the ex-junkie community?

No man is an island, even if sometimes we are treated as such by the communities that are supposed to support us. But the failure of a community to meet our needs does not really put us out of that community. Gay Catholics are always gay Catholics, even when they are no longer practicing Catholics, even when they are shunned and cast out by the Catholic community: it's who they are, it's who they always will be. And they'll never find happiness until they learn to get over their resentments against the Catholic Church for failing them so miserably.

I think you've judged all communities based on bad experiences with a few. That's not good.

But if it makes you feel better to not be part of the gay community, I hereby take back everything I said before. You aren't part of any community except the Trydegrau Community.

 

[ixthrock]

It's not about non-conformity, everyone claims to be non-conformist. And I assure you, I dont think you are all clones. I don't have a problem with the individuals that make up the community or communities, I simply have a problem with the notion of a community.

oh, don't mind my teasing; really, that was meant in fun.. i think i get you, and have even said i completely agree with one thing you've expressed. for the sake of discussion, let me suggest that we are talking about community in two different ways: One, arbitrary and externally imposed, as robert-marlene suggested - the family you were born into, the neighborhood you live in, etc...and one internally accepted - "goth." If you found no "goth" community to, say, support you as you wrestled with an addiction - could you concieve of attempting to create one yourself? How would you go about doing that?

At war in each and every human being are the need to belong and the need to be recognised and respected as an individual. I seeyour posts as an articulate expression of those warring needs.

Today one of my customers recommended a book by Stefan Zweig. I just met the guy, we had talked less than 10 minutes total, what gives him the right to presume I'd be interested in something written in a completely alien culture to mine? I stopped at the bookstore on the way home and placed it on order. Maybe It'll broaden my horizons a little, but I could have instead adopted a defensive posture... "Nietzche's an asshole, Rilke is smug, Hesse bored my pants off." Practically anytime you define yourself, someone is going to find common ground with you, and their heuristics are going to take over and they may make further assumptions of commonality than you agree with. Push them away if you need to; use your heuristics to push us all away because others like us have let you down, if you need to. Ultimately it IS your struggle and not one of us can really help you with it

(though some of us might be desirous to try:

"hush now baby baby, don't you cry...
mama's gonna check out
all your girlfriends for you
mama wont let anyone dirty get through...")

 

[Lube]

I don't understand where people keep getting the impression that I want to leave being gay. The only assertion I keep making is that being gay, and community, are not, TO ME, synonymous.

I only posted it to explain why I want nothing to do with any communities.

Seriously, am I getting through to anyone at all? should I just throw in the towel???

Well since you studiously replied to every post except mine, I'll try a new tack.

You're making a semantic argument. 1+1=2 to everyone who agrees on general math principles but, TO YOU, it may equal 5. Fine, whatever. To anyone who speaks Standard English, being gay means you're part of the gay community. If TO YOU that's not true, no one can dispute your alternative reality/language.

But your most telling remark is your "I want nothing to do with..." statement. What you're really saying is not that the gay community doesn't exist or that you're not part of it; you're saying that you don't WANT TO BE part of it. That's very different.

And I'm sure that would make a much more interesting discussion than the semantics of whether you actually are part of it (because you are).

 

[trydegrau]

to show us that you can be wise instead of bitter if you learn from your pain and reach out to others

I still prefer my solitude

But we DON'T operate the Borg. I'm totally different from most of the gay men here.

But we're all gay.

All people in the farming community that I grew up in didn't think the same or look the same or act the same but the fact that we lived in the same town and were all a part of that community MADE us a community.

With gay people the boudaries aren't physical, but we're all living gay.

understand?

I understand what your saying, I just don't appreciate when people (in and outside the community) assume things about me based on one characteristic.

You are QUITE free to be whom you choose, and asSOCiate with whom you choose.

Agreed. To each his own I guess.

So one person doesnt want to belong to the community. Fine. Doesnt stop the rest of us being a community.

So why is he so desperate to tell us that we aren't a community?

No game. I'm not getting in another bickering match with you. Try elsewhere.

 

[trydegrau]

Well, you're wrong. I did not say that "being gay = compulsory membership with the gay community"... what I said was being gay = membership with the gay community." It's not compulsory, it just is. Not all dogs are brown dogs, but all dogs are part of the genus canis; not all gays are alike, except in that they're all gay. That's what the gay community is, it exists because it exists, and if you're not an active part of that community, what are you?

Did I say you have to join a club, pay dues, wear a uniform? Did I say you have to toe the party line, that you have to believe as I believe, that you have to put in X number of hours in community service? No, I said no such thing and would never suggest it. That is fascism.

For the sake of argument, assume I were to identify with the community, you would have me contribute something? and what would you have me contribute, at the minimum?
By the same token, straights form a community, what are they expected to contribute to the straight community?

Okay, I see now where you're coming from with your bitterness about the term "community."

The family member deteriorating into insanity is rough, and I would say that the community of your family and your country failed to support you. Does that mean that they don't exist or that you are no longer part of them? No, it means that they failed you. You contributed to your family without support and that is laudable; members of your family and institutions of your country failed to contribute, and that is wicked.

Slight correction, my family did contribute, they just each burnt out one after another, I took the last turn before he left the country. That's why I say he should be in a hospital. You're right about the country and the medical institution being a total disappointment though. I pay taxes for hospitals that won't take care of all the sick.

But when you were blowing all that snow up your nose, what were you contributing? You never hurt a friend, stole from a family member, frightened a stranger all that time? And when you decided to clean up, to whom did you reach out? Did you join a twelve-step program? Did you seek a free counseling service? Did you call up the Salvation Army? Did they turn their collective back on you? Or were you so embittered by your experience with your family member that you decided you had to do that on your own, too? And if you decided on your own that you had to detox alone in your room, is that the fault of the ex-junkie community, or was it your choice to not participate in the ex-junkie community?

I didn't join any programs or call any services up. After detoxing in a room, I talked with some friends, and family, who said they knew what I was doing. And the thought struck me, why didn't they drag my ass into detox, something, anything? Knowing the experience, I would not hesitate to do that for someone I care.
For the other Q, I can't stand to talk about it much, that's means staying away from other ex-junkies.

No man is an island, even if sometimes we are treated as such by the communities that are supposed to support us. But the failure of a community to meet our needs does not really put us out of that community. Gay Catholics are always gay Catholics, even when they are no longer practicing Catholics, even when they are shunned and cast out by the Catholic community: it's who they are, it's who they always will be. And they'll never find happiness until they learn to get over their resentments against the Catholic Church for failing them so miserably.

I think you've judged all communities based on bad experiences with a few. That's not good.

But if it makes you feel better to not be part of the gay community, I hereby take back everything I said before. You aren't part of any community except the Trydegrau Community.

I only named two examples.
Anyways, I'm sorry I couldn't respond to all your points, I got a lot to reply to :-S

oh, don't mind my teasing; really, that was meant in fun.. i think i get you, and have even said i completely agree with one thing you've expressed. for the sake of discussion, let me suggest that we are talking about community in two different ways: One, arbitrary and externally imposed, as robert-marlene suggested - the family you were born into, the neighborhood you live in, etc...and one internally accepted - "goth." If you found no "goth" community to, say, support you as you wrestled with an addiction - could you concieve of attempting to create one yourself? How would you go about doing that?

At war in each and every human being are the need to belong and the need to be recognised and respected as an individual. I seeyour posts as an articulate expression of those warring needs.

Today one of my customers recommended a book by Stefan Zweig. I just met the guy, we had talked less than 10 minutes total, what gives him the right to presume I'd be interested in something written in a completely alien culture to mine? I stopped at the bookstore on the way home and placed it on order. Maybe It'll broaden my horizons a little, but I could have instead adopted a defensive posture... "Nietzche's an asshole, Rilke is smug, Hesse bored my pants off." Practically anytime you define yourself, someone is going to find common ground with you, and their heuristics are going to take over and they may make further assumptions of commonality than you agree with. Push them away if you need to; use your heuristics to push us all away because others like us have let you down, if you need to. Ultimately it IS your struggle and not one of us can really help you with it

(though some of us might be desirous to try:

"hush now baby baby, don't you cry...
mama's gonna check out
all your girlfriends for you
mama wont let anyone dirty get through...")

Maybe there's something wrong with me, but I just don't feel the need to belong. But you're right, it is my struggle, If I can't identify with people that's really my problem.

Well since you studiously replied to every post except mine, I'll try a new tack.

You're making a semantic argument. 1+1=2 to everyone who agrees on general math principles but, TO YOU, it may equal 5. Fine, whatever. To anyone who speaks Standard English, being gay means you're part of the gay community. If TO YOU that's not true, no one can dispute your alternative reality/language.

But your most telling remark is your "I want nothing to do with..." statement. What you're really saying is not that the gay community doesn't exist or that you're not part of it; you're saying that you don't WANT TO BE part of it. That's very different.

And I'm sure that would make a much more interesting discussion than the semantics of whether you actually are part of it (because you are).

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you.
Basically, "I want nothing to do with..." means I consider myself highly independant, very solitary, very private. That's why I take it to heart that I not be identified with groups/communities when I fail to identify with most people.

 

[Lube]

Basically, "I want nothing to do with..." means I consider myself highly independant, very solitary, very private. That's why I take it to heart that I not be identified with groups/communities when I fail to identify with most people.

When I go overseas, I sometimes feel awkward revealing I'm American (as if they can't tell anyway, lol), because I don't agree with the current administration's policies. Does that mean I'm not American? No. Does that mean I think all Americans are bad? No. It means I disagree with the policies of the group that leads Americans.

You're in the same boat. You feel awkward revealing you're gay because you don't agree with stereotypes or even what (self-proclaimed) leaders of the gay community say or do, but that doesn't mean you're not part of it. And, I hope, it doesn't mean that you think all gays are bad.

 

[trydegrau]

When I go overseas, I sometimes feel awkward revealing I'm American (as if they can't tell anyway, lol), because I don't agree with the current administration's policies. Does that mean I'm not American? No. Does that mean I think all Americans are bad? No. It means I disagree with the policies of the group that leads Americans.

You're in the same boat. You feel awkward revealing you're gay because you don't agree with stereotypes or even what (self-proclaimed) leaders of the gay community say or do, but that doesn't mean you're not part of it. And, I hope, it doesn't mean that you think all gays are bad.

Exactly. People assume that all americans are behind their president, the truth is, less than 50% are behind him.

For the second part, you're also right except for the last bit. It's not something I feel comfortable revealing to a stranger right away, I'd rather they got to know me a little first before telling them that I'm gay, because, if that's all they know about me, then they fill in the blanks with what they see on the media. I appreciate soil's points about underlining diversity, but on a day-to-day basis, it's not always feasible to explain to everyone I meet that I am gay AND not walking stereotype as portrayed by the media. If I'm sitting down having a convo with someone, sure I'll take the time to explain it. What I find really sad though, is that it's not just outside the community, I've met a a couple of younger gay guys who told me flat out "You can't be gay, look at your hair, your clothes!? [...]"
I don't think any gays are bad, it's how we are represented that I don't like, and I have too much to do to get out there and show people the diversity.

You know, people can act and appear exactly how they like, it's their life and their personality, and if they are comfortable with who they are I wouldn't have them change a thing. It's unfortunate that the media zero-in on some types and not others.

 

[Swellegant]

For the sake of argument, assume I were to identify with the community, you would have me contribute something? and what would you have me contribute, at the minimum?

By the same token, straights form a community, what are they expected to contribute to the straight community?

I'm glad you asked! One of the lovely things about being a contributing member of society, any society, is that you can tailor your contribution to your abilities.

For example, I don't have a hell of a lot of energy to devote to various activities. Between caring for my Grandmother, working a full-time job, and dealing with my mental health issues, I'm pretty much all in. But I do have the time and energy to visit this board, and while I'm here I like to make a contribution: I give advice if I have experience, I make a joke if it's appropriate, I point out truths I've discovered that might contribute to the well-being of others.

When I do leave the house and do something, I like to do something in aid of my fellow beings: I belong to the recovery community and I participate in two fundraising organizations, one that benefits a local gay recovery group and one that benefits various gay-related (though not exclusively gay) charities. And though my contribution is small, I feel that I'm doing something other than laying in bed and complaining about what a mess the world is: I'm doing a little something to make the mess just a tiny bit smaller.

For you, a contribution can be something small or something big... or something small that turns out to be very important. If you see a member of your community in pain, you can be nice to him or her. If you hear someone make an ignorant comment about a member of your community, you can take a moment to educate that person. If a vote comes up that directly affects others in your community, even if it doesn't really affect you personally, you can make your decision based on the greater good. It's all fairly simple.

As a gay person, you're in a unique position to further the well-being of other gays, because you're one of them (us). As a gay man, you're in a unique position to point out to non-gays that not all gays are Jack McFarlane or Will Truman, with your own sweet self as a sterling example; you're in a unique position to offer aid and comfort to fellow gays based on your own experiences as a gay man. As a gay man, you know what it feels like to be left out in the cold because of your sexuality, and you have situation-specific advice and aid to offer.

Non-gays do not have the same perspective and do not have the same help to offer nor the same motivation to improve the lot of people unlike themselves.

But it's not just the gay community to which I exhort you (and everyone else) to contribute: all of your communities require contribution and support: your family, your neighborhood, your country, your species. All of the communities to which you belong overlap on you.

Now, if you find a little more time on your hands, you might volunteer some of that time to a community organization. You have experienced the failure of systems, and you have a unique perspective to help fix those systems. Canadian health-care, for one, drug recovery for another. Just from the examples you've given.

You ask if straight people have a straight community... well, of course they do! Do they have to contribute much to further the well-being of their fellow straights? Not so much... nowhere in the world are heterosexuals disenfranchised for being heterosexual. With the vague exception of gay bars, nowhere are straights made to feel less-than because they are straight, nowhere are they legislated against, nowhere are they hurt for being what they are.

However, I'm sure you've noticed groups of heterosexuals banding together on the terms of something that makes them unique, such as support groups for new parents, support groups for divorcees, support groups for singles; these support groups can be as informal as a band of like-situated friends or as formal as a meeting where you sit in a circle an help each-other out with your own experiences. But they contribute to the well-being of other people in their particular communities nonetheless.

Something very valuable I have learned over the years is that helping others is more beneficial to our souls than helping ourselves. We of course need to see to our own business in order to be the least amount of burden on society, but at the same time we need to reach out and help others, regardless of whether or not we've been helped: therein lies happiness.

 

[Swellegant]

I dont know why you guys are bothering.

Because I feel that if I can't defend my beliefs against someone who believes differently, I have no business believing as I do. I'm not trying to pursuade him against his beliefs, I am merely defending my own. And in that defense, I find the weakness, the illogicalities, and the just plain wrongnesses that might be concealed within those beliefs, and can excise them from my worldview. I also hope he and everyone reading these arguments benefit from the exercise in the same way.