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Do you agree with Jesse Ventura's statement?

Do you agree with Jesse's take on his generation in the same way about gay rights instead of Vietnam


  • Total voters
    13
I'm in my early 20's. Sub taught for a teacher that had endometrius (spelling) and ended up finishing out the year.

There is no magic age. If you're aware of this country's history and don't learn from our mistakes, you're foolish.

I do hold the ones who actually lived through our country's errors to a higher standard. Living through Vietnam should make you more aware of the mistake it was than someone twenty years later reading about it in a textbook.

Weird, huh?


Sometimes people who live through a rough experience like discrimination respond by working to see that others don't have to suffer similarly, and sometimes they don't.

An example is a majority of blacks failing to support equal rights for gays, while Jews have generally supported equal rights for gays.
 
^We are talking about the present, most of us were not even alive when Mengele was busy. I'm older than most in this forum and my problems with hostility have been minimal, I'm free to go where I want and free to do what I want. If you want to pin a pink star on your chest and a "KIck Me" sign on your back, be my guest, but don't tell me about your suffering unless your prepared to detail it.

If you're really into victimization, there are plenty of whip bearing leather types that will be glad to accommodate you, just don't make your fetish a political cause celebre.


I don't know how old you are but growing up with oppressive hostility to homosexuals was a reality to most gays before the 1970s, and into the 1970s for most of America.

What homosexual men could do that most blacks couldn't was hide. For gays it was called being in the closet; for blacks who could do it, it was "passing." But even though being closeted or passing could make life easier in some ways it created its own problems in other ways -- self-loathing and fear of exposure being the most common.

Many gays still living today didn't have to be "into victimization" to be a victim of homophobia; if you were homosexual, in or out, before Stonewall, you were probably victimized either overtly or in self-identification.
 
The Mattachine Society was founded by Harry Hay and others (mostly former Communists). Its original organization followed the pattern of Communist cells. Mattachine was fairly polite in its approach pushing for acceptance within the existing social structure. Their demonstrations followed strict dress codes, for example. Ties were required for the men and skirts for the women.

Among the principle goals were an end to police raids, ending the exclusion of gays from government employment, and removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses. All of those goals have been pretty much accomplished. One could also credit polite action with the gradual, state-by-state repeal of sodomy laws beginning with Illinois in 1961.


I think, with those "principle goals" you are unintentionally mischaracterizing what Mattachine was about, which I think is important in understanding the context of the time, the way attitudes have changed and what changed them.

Mattachine was a pre-Stonewall group, and the only thing today's gays would recognize as radical that Mattachine fought for was an end to police entrapment, but that was only because one of its founders (not Harry Hay) was arrested for lewd behavior in a public park. From everything I've heard and read, ending police raids or fighting for the inclusion of out gays in government employment was not even on their radar. The context of the time is really important in understanding how far we've come, how we got here and how relatively quickly since Stonewall. The main thing Mattachine wanted to accomplish was the creation of a gay community, to give homosexuals across the country a way to feel like they belonged somewhere, that there were others like them and they weren't alone. The old gay references like "friend of Dorothy" come from the pre-Stonewall kind of isolation that many gays today don't understand. And even though it doesn't seem radical by today's world, I think Mattachine achieving its goal of helping gays across America know they weren't alone was proved by, and instumental in, the gay liberation movement that followed Stonewall. Drag queens and street gays sparked gay liberation but it never would have spread the way it did if so many gays across the country weren't poised for the moment.


The Gay Liberation Front adopted New Left approaches from such organizations as SDS and NOW. Gone were the old dress codes and the assimilationist goals.


This just is not right. Mattachine did not have "assimilationist goals." In fact the group, and in particular Harry Hay, were decidedly anti-assimilationist.

I met Harry Hay in 1978 when I spent a weekend at his home and he railed unrelentingly about how wrong it was for gays to assimilate, and how the Mattachine goal had been about unifying isolated gays rather than leading them into assimilation. He was unqualifiably opposed to it, and insisted Mattachine had been as well. I disagreed with him on some points about assimilation but even so I remained a friend of Hay's, or at least a correspondent (I still have his letters up in my attic) and he never changed his opinion about that. In fact when I talked to him about ActUp, over which I was initially conflicted, he was angry about the group because he said they were trying to behave like straight men. Ultimately Harry Hay was rejected by the post-Stonewall gay activist community because he spoke out against assimilation and scolded gays of my generation for excluding groups like NAMBLA from Gay Pride and, later, for marginalizing more flamboyant gays like drag queens, saying we were behaving as badly as straights had towards us.


The GLF offered a radical critique of conventional structures. It replaced the polite picketing with marches, disruptions, and zaps. It also actively sought more or less successfully to build bridges with other New Left organizations such as the Black Panther Party. It integrated gay liberation with an ideology of general human liberation.

This also is inaccurate.

The GLF, which came into being right after the Stonewall riots but didn't even last a year, did not successfully (more or less) build a bridge with the Black Panthers. GLF, as I recall, joined in Black Panther activist events and pursued an alliance with the Black Pathers, and to that end gave cash to the Panthers, after which Huey Newton (leader of the Black Panthers) publicly announced his support of gay liberation, and it ended there with nobody in the Panthers, or any other black organiztion that I know of, following Newton's lead. The Black Panthers never aligned themselves with gay liberation or rights. There was no bridge built; there was support and cash from gays, some nice words from the leader and then we were tossed aside. Sound familiar?



Since the demise of the GLF, the gay movement has largely narrowed its goals to specifically gay rights issues, but it kept the confrontational attitude of the GLF. We have seen that spirit in organization such as the Gay Activist Alliance, ACT-UP, and Queer Nation.


It can be said the GLF was influential, but it was not GLF that informed the change in gay activist organizations from "homophile" to "gay liberation," it was the Stonewall riots. Stonewall and the coverage it received in the midst of black demonstrations and antiwar demonstrations and women's liberation demonstrations is what changed everything.


The defeat of the Briggs Initiative in California back in the late 1970s put an end to Anita Bryant's Save the Children campaign. The end of bar raids in the 1980s can be chalked up to liberationist efforts. Increased federal funding for AIDS was accomplished by disruptions and zaps as was some of the movement toward acceptance of gays in Christian denominations.


I know you intended this only as a short-hand kind of description but all of this is more complex than you're making it seem. And I think it's important to recognize that. The fight for the end of discrimination and for equal rights is not as simple as gays today, defending Obama, want to believe. And oversimplifying the history of gay liberation and gay rights doesn't help. For instance, an essential element of ending the bar raids was dealing with the fact that in NYC gay bars like Stonewall were not gay owned but were owned by the Mafia, who paid off police to control the number of raids and so the owners would be notified of the raids beforehand; the owners of gay bars were not on our side, they just wanted to make money off us, treated gay patrons very badly and were in cahoots with police against us. Gays who have effectively prevailed over the various elements of discrimination have been those who take nothing at face value and trust those who've earned it over those who talk a good game.


These are just a few of the accomplishments of the older generation.


(*8*)
 
I've said so before, but I'll say it again: I'm enthralled and enlightened by the stories of people who were actually "there" when gay rights were really being established.

Thank you for posting Nick.
 
And yet younger people, at the same time, still outnumbered Seniors at the polls. Go figure. I need to see some statistics to your claim that "Younger people did not get out and vote". What was the turnout of each of the Age brackets? Do you have something that says that?

They know all this. They just don't like having the spotlight on them and seeing all their peers' errors dissected.

Obama should go Universal Health Care on them. You know what I mean?

Tell the older voters the same thing he told insurance companies.

"You fucked this country up by favoring a few (straights/people who can access insurance) over those who weren't so privileged (gays & minorities/those that are too sick to qualify for insurance).

You all did it on some moral bullshit ("Homosexuality is a sin" & "Blacks are the son of Ham"/"free market capitalism can fix everything").

Now it's time to get the fuck out the way."

This is what Obama should be saying.
 
^You really have no idea of what is going on in the country, do you?


He's as blind as he can be,
Just sees what he wants to see,
Nowhere Man can you see me at all?

Nowhere Man, don't worry,
Take your time, don't hurry,
Leave it all till somebody else
lends you a hand!
 
What you wrote was no different than Lostlover.I called you on it then, and you ran away, never to respond.


Deciding to not respond to a hare-brained post is not the same as running away. Though in your fantasy world any delusion is possible.


Lostlover is principled, he is sticking to his guns,


There's nothing principled about blaming everything on old folks and believing it'll all be better once they die, just because Grandma is a pain in the neck.


The core argument is still ridiculous.


It's not hard to recognize that common generational experiences like the Great Depression, or being parented by overprotective yuppies who cheer their children for a morning poop, tends to create a common personality trait or two.
 
They know all this. They just don't like having the spotlight on them and seeing all their peers' errors dissected.


Well, to be fair, I made that comment with looking at the Exit Polls. According to the DBR poll that Andy says is more accurate, the Seniors actually outnumbered the 18-29 year olds at the polls.


But .... But ....

that still does not take away from the voting behavior amongst Seniors. Essentially, a couple people want to blame the Youth for not getting to the polls in the same degree of numbers that the older crowd did .... but at the same time excuse the Seniors for being bigoted towards Gays.

And again, IF that DBR poll is more accurate than the Exit Polling, then it made the attitudes of Seniors look even worse than before.

The Exit Polls had Seniors voting 61% YES.

The DBR Poll had Seniors voting 67% YES.


The 65 and older crowd according to that poll voted "YES" a whole 20% higher, than all the other age groups.



Let's face it. 50% is the threshold for a vote to PASS. So, my focus is on any particular group that is voting ABOVE 50%. Because that tells me that there are things that are in our best interests to address within these communities.

Those groups are (according to virtually EVERY poll):


Seniors (67%)
Hispanics (59%)
Blacks (58%)
 
BTW, off topic, looking at your signature with Cornette's quote in it ... I have a friend that actually knows Cornette and he and his wife Stacy are coming up for an Indy show here next month. We're going to try to arrange going out to dinner with him. I'm sure we can get him started on another political tirade like he made in that Commentary, among other things.

Sweet!

I guess Cornette ain't what I thought he was. I would have bet the house that Cornette was a Republican.

Gotta fill me in when you meet Cornette. He seems like the type (like Ventura) that once you get them fired up, watch out!
 
Sweet!

I guess Cornette ain't what I thought he was. I would have bet the house that Cornette was a Republican.

Gotta fill me in when you meet Cornette. He seems like the type (like Ventura) that once you get them fired up, watch out!


LMAO L.L.

You use the quote of a person you know nothing about as your siggy !!!

Now that is really being naive.;)
 
^ homework , grasshopper.

Actually, most talent back then never made their political views known. Politics weren't as much a Hot Topic back when Cornette managed in his prime in the WWE (which was around 1993-1996).

If we didn't have Facebook, MySpace, and we really didn't have the Internet back then, then how is Lost supposed to know?

For the record, I had Cornette pegged as the stereotypical Southern Republican bigot as well, back then. He pleasantly surprised me.

The guy is a master at doing promos, and his political rants are 5 star. It's too bad his language is too colorful for the Main Stream public, though.
 
So in reality Andy, even though you posted a poll with some different numbers, what really changed? The same 3 groups still voted to support Proposition 8, with each over 50%.

As I stated earlier, nobody has disputed the facts of any of the posted polls. They've simply questioned the value and merit of the information, and the resolve behind it.

Yes, the majority of 65+ voters voted against gay marriage in California. But starting 4 threads in 3 weeks highlighting that fact, on a gay forum whose 65+ members almost certainly do NOT identify with that voting trend, serves only to inflame arguments. To express a hope that their death will enable your rights is just plain nasty.

How about the religious (70% voted Yes, and they were 45% of the total vote) or the Republicans (81% voted yes, 34% of the vote) or the Conservatives (82% voted Yes, 36% of the vote). These categorizations are substantially higher than the 65+ categorization, in both percentages and in real votes, yet we continue to have thread after thread by LL chastising just the 65+ crowd. Where is his disdain for the more statistically relevant categories?

Nobody has disputed the facts about 65+ voters, but they've questioned the merit of the categorization. 33% of 65+ Californians voted NO on Prop 8, despite having grown up in a world that taught them homosexuals were disgusting deviants. Calling them names and wishing for their hasty death is certainly no way to thank the 33% who voted for our rights.

LL's ageism isn't just a waste of energy, it's damaging to our cause, and divisive to our community. Religiosity and political ideology are real targets that can be addressed. Age is such a non-specific categorization it serves almost no purpose: the actual factors driving the vote of 65+ people may be religion, ideology, anything - recognizing their age tells us little about why they've voted against us.
 
What you wrote was no different than Lostlover. I called you on it then, and you ran away, never to respond. Lostlover is principled, he is sticking to his guns, when you attempted to backpedal, but it is easy to see through it. There was a long line of posts leading to that last exchange... it doesn't change who and what you are. The core argument is still ridiculous.

LL is just being stubborn; that has nothing to do with principles. He doesn't acknowledge the numbers; he dodges rather than acknowledge the fact that his younger generation's apathy outweighs their tolerance -- so California got stuck with Prop 8.
 
As I stated earlier, nobody has disputed the facts of any of the posted polls. They've simply questioned the value and merit of the information, and the resolve behind it.

Yes, the majority of 65+ voters voted against gay marriage in California. But starting 4 threads in 3 weeks highlighting that fact, on a gay forum whose 65+ members almost certainly do NOT identify with that voting trend, serves only to inflame arguments. To express a hope that their death will enable your rights is just plain nasty.

How about the religious (70% voted Yes, and they were 45% of the total vote) or the Republicans (81% voted yes, 34% of the vote) or the Conservatives (82% voted Yes, 36% of the vote). These categorizations are substantially higher than the 65+ categorization, in both percentages and in real votes, yet we continue to have thread after thread by LL chastising just the 65+ crowd. Where is his disdain for the more statistically relevant categories?

Nobody has disputed the facts about 65+ voters, but they've questioned the merit of the categorization. 33% of 65+ Californians voted NO on Prop 8, despite having grown up in a world that taught them homosexuals were disgusting deviants. Calling them names and wishing for their hasty death is certainly no way to thank the 33% who voted for our rights.

LL's ageism isn't just a waste of energy, it's damaging to our cause, and divisive to our community.


Well, if our 65+ members on here feel differently against Gay Marriage then the rest of their counterparts (which is a very safe assumption), then why should they take offense to any of the things he is saying? They shouldn't.

Same concept with Blacks and Hispanics. Our Black and Hispanic forum members shouldn't take offense to any of the things being said. There is nothing being said on here that isn't true. But more importantly, they aren't the members who are specifically being targeted.

Rather, what is being done is highlighting who are biggest opponents are. And once that is done, something can be done about it. Since Whites and Asians made progress in their Communities, maybe what we need to transpire is our Black and Hispanic friends on the Forum need to perhaps try to strike up some conversations about this topic with people they know.

As far as Age goes, more than likely, Seniors will be most likely to listen to people who are closer in age to them as opposed to some "snot-nosed 18 year old" (in their eyes). Perhaps we need to rely more on our 40 and older friends to reach out to them, who they are most likely to listen to.

Nobody should feel "alienated" on here. What we are discussing are very REAL things. And the more data we have to address what is preventing this from transpiring, the better.

And you want to talk about Religion, but these same people are Religious or Non-Religious. Why are Whites very Religious, as are Blacks (and to a lesser degree, Hispanics), but why do a greater percentage of Whites feel that discrimination against Gays on the Gay Marriage front is wrong?

Religious people are White people. Religious people are Black people. Religious people are Hispanic people, Asian people, etc. Religious people are young, middle-aged, and Seniors.

Address those specific communities where the percentages are Most high within them, and more than likely the greater success you probably will have.


LL is just being stubborn; that has nothing to do with principles. He doesn't acknowledge the numbers; he dodges rather than acknowledge the fact that his younger generation's apathy outweighs their tolerance -- so California got stuck with Prop 8.

It seems like each community has their own problems, doesn't it?

The youth have apathy, while Blacks, Hispanics, and Seniors have bigotry. Perhaps all of the above should be addressed for Round 2.
 
^It is simply pathetic that in 2009 you do not grasp the concept that you can differ with individuals or with ideas, but not by attacking the person or the group they belong to.

Generally speaking, if you differ with something posted, you can take exception and explain your reasoning, not attack the person because of their age or race or sexual preference or whatever.

Isn't that just pretty basic?
 
What you wrote was no different than Lostlover. I called you on it then, and you ran away, never to respond. Lostlover is principled, he is sticking to his guns, when you attempted to backpedal, but it is easy to see through it. There was a long line of posts leading to that last exchange... it doesn't change who and what you are. The core argument is still ridiculous.

LL is "principled" in the same way racists or anti semites or homophobes are "principled" and "stick to their guns".

Perhaps you would also like to compliment Fred Phelps on his "principles" and "sticking to his guns"?
 
^It is simply pathetic that in 2009 you do not grasp the concept that you can differ with individuals or with ideas, but not by attacking the person or the group they belong to.

Generally speaking, if you differ with something posted, you can take exception and explain your reasoning, not attack the person because of their age or race or sexual preference or whatever.

Isn't that just pretty basic?

Spare me the PC bull, Iman. We are talking about hard, concrete data here. Nobody is making any of this up. What you need to do is "man up" and accept that we have problems in these communities that need to be addressed.

Do you see me calling all Black posters on this forum the "N" word simply because their community voted against Gay Marriage? Or do you see me calling Hispanics on the forum names? Do you see me hurling insults to the Senior members of the forum?

Quit being so damn touchy feely, and man-up. We are all adults here and should be mature enough to tackle sensitive data here, for purposes of discussing it, and discussing what should be done about bringing members of the said communities to our side.

The bottom line is that if Whites and Asians voted the same way that Blacks and Hispanics did, they would be the ones under the spotlight. And if I was White (which I am) and I voted "No on 8", but my Community was called out for being bigoted, I would accept it. Because I have the satisfaction of knowing that I didn't vote in line with the rest of my community. Nor would I be insulted in any way because again, I didn't vote with the rest of them.

If the Youth crowd voted to the same degree that the Seniors did, they would be under the spotlight, too.

No member of this forum is being "insulted". The numbers are simply what they are. Now, everyone knows the communities where more effort needs to be placed, if we hope to achieve a victory in CA, again.
 
Well, if our 65+ members on here feel differently against Gay Marriage then the rest of their counterparts (which is a very safe assumption), then why should they take offense to any of the things he is saying? They shouldn't.

Why WOULDN'T they take offence? With comments like:

I was actually referring to a geriatric poster here that uses his 15 minutes of internet time at the old folk's home to "dig up dirt" on Obama.

The older folks and the ones not living got rebuked today with the passing of this pill that apologizes for slavery and segregation.

Were the older people rebuked for the way they behaved or were brought up and or still think (some)?

I personally think a lot of it still lives in them.

I wonder if the bolded part is what some of the older folks here feel?
Which queens does this sound like ^^^.

Or with thread titles like:

Geriatrics with TOO much time and child abuse
89 Year Old Goes on Shooting Rampage Against Jews
Old timer [Jon Voight] blames Youth for Obama
Grandpa is being persecuted...


That's just this month's threads. Sorry, but the frequency and tone of this age-bashing is GUARANTEED to insult older JUBbers, and I've no doubt it's deliberate.


As far as Age goes, more than likely, Seniors will be most likely to listen to people who are closer in age to them as opposed to some "snot-nosed 18 year old" (in their eyes). Perhaps we need to rely more on our 40 and older friends to reach out to them, who they are most likely to listen to.

I've said similar in this thread. However, I've also pointed out that griping repeatedly about "old people" will never, ever achieve that goal, it will only alienate them, which is perfectly evident in all the threads listed above. You won't win votes from blacks by constantly posting on a gay forum about how anti-gay black people are, either.


And you want to talk about Religion, but these same people are Religious or Non-Religious. Why are Whites very Religious, as are Blacks (and to a lesser degree, Hispanics), but why do a greater percentage of Whites feel that discrimination against Gays on the Gay Marriage front is wrong?

Religious people are White people. Religious people are Black people. Religious people are Hispanic people, Asian people, etc. Religious people are young, middle-aged, and Seniors.

Address those specific communities where the percentages are Most high within them, and more than likely the greater success you probably will have.

I don't understand your thinking. If we agree that religiosity is a far greater indicator of voting trend, why address religiosity in just 65+ voters? Or just in Blacks? Why would we not seek to collectively address religiosity SPECIFICALLY in all demographics? How is harping on about old people EVER going to address the much greater issue of religiosity? That's my criticism of this entire ageist argument - it doesn't address the core issues influencing voting trends, and it doesn't actually achieve anything positive, or address anything we can change.
 
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