Do you believe in God ?

[Kyanimal]

Ok, you win there.
How come i can't walk on water ?

Never stepped through a puddle?

 

[Rickrock]

Thank you Kyanimal for your comments which I find interesting. I am a Catholic and there is a phrase that sometimes comes up in Catholic teachings that we are all a part of the mystical body of Christ. I have a vague idea that means that we are all part of a life force that is God, but I also believe that there is a head directing all of this, the Father. It is all very vague and mysterious to me and I wonder if, as humans, we aren't yet ready to take our place in this life force for good. In any case, I appreciate your comments about this although it still isn't any clearer in my mind.

 

[Brian Smith]

To understand my view, you have to understand and accept a few basic premises.

a. I do not think that believing in a god would cause one to exist.

b. I do not think that doubting a god would keep one from existing.

c. Ceteris paribus, it is just as easy to claim that a godhead rewards atheism as it is to say that a godhead rewards belief. Without any actual, concrete evidence, you do not have any basis on which to claim otherwise. Therefore, the usual smug argument that you're going to cash in on some Machiavellian, little wager doesn't really pan out the way that you might think it does. Besides, any such "wager" is a crappy and tacky premise for any belief.

d. Although I am as perturbed by my mortality as anybody, I do not think that I would render myself immortal by imagining that I am immortal, nor do I really think that I would render myself mortal by imagining that I am mortal. I am one, or I am the other. Either way, I have to deal with the consequences.

e. If you do believe in an afterlife, how do you know that it isn't more horrifyingly complicated than the life you're currently in, not only for one group of people but for all people?

That said, several other points:

1) The god of the Old Testament is a repulsive and despicable insect that I would crush under my foot in an instant.

2) The reformer from the New Testament, Jesus, had a mixture of good ideas and bad ideas. His idea of undermining the Roman state by refusing to use their currency--"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's--might have contributed to the collapse of the ancient Roman economy.

3) Paul was a whiny and asinine person that I truly and authentically despised from the bottom of my soul.

4) I was not ever really exposed or indoctrinated into any religion other than Christianity, and I am not going to go "shopping" for a religion just because I find myself dissatisfied with one. Besides, the Christians have done the least, of all religious faiths, to fuck up their culture. For all of the faults of Christianity, they have somehow blundered into making things work out for themselves.

5) Although that's good for them, that isn't adequate to entice me to join the religion. Societies that are more "secular humanist" tend to be more stable, and the people in them tend to be better global citizens. It is arguable that the success of the Christian-dominated countries is due at least partly to the intervention of their secular humanist communities. For instance, Thomas Jefferson was a self-avowed "Epicurean," marking him as a critic of religion, and he referred to Jesus as a "reformer."

http://newepicurean.com/suggested-reading/thomas-jeffersons-letter-to-william-short-october-31-1819/

Well, the idea of making "liberty" a virtually divine ideal was sort of his idea and that of like-minded men. The Christians had the good sense to listen to him, even though he thought differently. The fact that they did so is creditable. However, again, it does not make me enthusiastic to convert to their religion.

6) Forsooth! I even consider the secular philosophers that have spoken to us, across the great expanse of the ages, to be some of the finest men and women who have ever lived. They make me want to follow them and emulate them. I emulate them in their skepticism of mainstream religion, and I emulate them in my reverence for nature. I emulate them in their bloody-minded argumentativeness.

I believe that my views, as outlined above, are acceptable.

 

[bankside]

Machiavellian, Pascalian...potato, potatto.

 

[Telstra]

Brain Smith,
you should make fun in this thread like can you turn water into wine ... etc.
Religious debates are already discussed to death

 

[Brian Smith]

Alright, I'll make fun of religion.

The god of the Old Testament was a detestable and despicable person. Let's take the whole chapter on the "vengeance" against the people of Midian, in the Book of Number 31.

Let's consider his other examples of inhumanity, though, such as a hideous method of forced abortion on women suspected of infidelity, described in Numbers 5.

What about the condemnation of young men based on the indiscretions of their ancestors, as described in the Book of Deuteronomy 23?

And the entire Book of Isaiah makes him sound like my boyfriend's ex, who has BPD. The deity described in there alters erratically between being horribly and despicably abusive and ladling on saccharine, apparently self-indulgent compassion, like some crazy person. The deity from the Book of Isaiah comes across as a horribly dangerous personality.

The Book of Job describes a horrific sadist who permits Job to be tortured as some kind of sick test of his faith.

The Books of Kings discuss, in parts, the destruction of an ancient culture, over which I am so utterly aghast it makes me sick.

If you follow the god of the Old Testament, then you ought to have a chunk ripped out of your skull for being a horrible and despicable person.

Is that making adequate fun?

 

[Telstra]

I didn't laugh, so it is not funny

 

[ludolfo]

Alright, I'll make fun of religion.

The god of the Old Testament was a detestable and despicable person. Let's take the whole chapter on the "vengeance" against the people of Midian, in the Book of Number 31.

Let's consider his other examples of inhumanity, though, such as a hideous method of forced abortion on women suspected of infidelity, described in Numbers 5.

What about the condemnation of young men based on the indiscretions of their ancestors, as described in the Book of Deuteronomy 23?

And the entire Book of Isaiah makes him sound like my boyfriend's ex, who has BPD. The deity described in there alters erratically between being horribly and despicably abusive and ladling on saccharine, apparently self-indulgent compassion, like some crazy person. The deity from the Book of Isaiah comes across as a horribly dangerous personality.

The Book of Job describes a horrific sadist who permits Job to be tortured as some kind of sick test of his faith.

The Books of Kings discuss, in parts, the destruction of an ancient culture, over which I am so utterly aghast it makes me sick.

If you follow the god of the Old Testament, then you ought to have a chunk ripped out of your skull for being a horrible and despicable person.

Is that making adequate fun?

And all that is the recipe for Satanism. For those who oppose 'God'. So the Gnostic/Luciferian myth therefore is the inverse of that--eg of the Christian version of God as all-good. For them, like you, 'God' is an evil tyrant who created us to be prisoners here on Earth, and their good 'god' is personified as Lucifer/Satan but really meaning the 'light of illumined knowledge' who is the liberator.
So it is clear that the patriarchal version of 'God' breeds Satanism and Luciferianism. With the latter believing that the initiates of these beliefs can, by degrees, become 'gods'--apotheosis

I am against 'both'. I see them as flip sides of a same patriarchal coin! But this doesn't mean I worship materialism and scientism either

For me 'God' is an exclamation you may make when having orgasmic sex and any form of ecstatic experience where you feel more than your 'ordinary' self

 

[lambdaboy]

No, baptized Catholic everyone loves the new Pope he is a pig and a puppet of Ratzinger if there was a God and there is not it made me gay. I did not join I was not recruited I just am gay. Here in The UK where we have about 65 million less than one million go to church regularly. The Queen is in Charge as most probably know so she is not incharge of many!

 

[Brian Smith]

And all that is the recipe for Satanism.

No. The Satan in Job was clearly acting at the behest of Job's god. This is self-evident from the opening pages of the book.

If anything, a thorough reading of the Bible might make you interested in the idea of rejuvenating the vanished pagan religions that were destroyed by the ancient Hebrews, such as the worship of Tammuz. It turns out that Tammuz was a very nice god, but he spent half of each year in the Underworld. Therefore, at every summer solstice, the people would carry out a solemn funeral service for Tammuz, and around the winter solstice, they would celebrate his rebirth.

The weeping and mourning part is right there in Ezekiel, Chapter 8. The rebirth portion was probably just preserved in other traditions under a different name, and the original identity of the deity, being celebrated, was quietly buried.

But those despicable barbarians wiped out beautiful cultures and destroyed everything they loved and believed in, and they are actually proud of it. They are so hideously evil that they dance and celebrate their mass murder and genocide against little children. You don't just smile tolerantly at people like that and tell them that it's okay to have different beliefs. You scoop out their eyeballs with a spoon and use them as decorations for an ice cream sundae.

Fortunately, most Christians don't consider themselves beholden to the Old Testament, and Christian culture is a lot more complex and evolved than merely the contexts of their books. There is a whole massive, sprawling system of theology, spread across hundreds of generations and thousands of cultures, and to suggest that the entire belief system of Christianity is limited to the contexts of one slender volume is simply ridiculous, when Catholics everywhere consciously continue to practice a holdover from the worship of Venus, in the form of the Virgin Mary. They know perfectly well that Mary is just a cameo of an ancient fertility goddess, and they aren't going to admit it because keeping up the pretense of being pious, obedient, little Christians is how they have gotten away with it for more than a millennium.

The old gods live.

 

[peeonme]

Ok, you win there.
How come i can't walk on water ?

I do it every winter.
Yes I believe in God, I was not a church kid, I did have to attend every Sunday while in a boy's school. I started to seek God at about the age of 17, I would not be alive today had it not been for that experience.

 

[Telstra]

I do it every winter.
Yes I believe in God, I was not a church kid, I did have to attend every Sunday while in a boy's school. I started to seek God at about the age of 17, I would not be alive today had it not been for that experience.

Its called you are lost and aimless, didn't know what to do at that age.

 

[peeonme]

Its called you are lost and aimless, didn't know what to do at that age.

At that age I was supporting myself and my mother, I was hardly lost and aimless. A spiritual experience was a need that I had, I will spare you anymore details as I am not in a place where I want to recall all of it at this moment.

 

[eastofeden]

Yes...I believe in God. Why? I can feel God....

I don't know what she/he/it looks like...I dont' care. I used to get a lot of comfort and strength from God when I was a kid and I felt God helped me protect myself from my parents...

No one ever told me to believe in God...and certainly most Christians have been the WORST advertisement for God..same with most Muslims....I have no idea who they are talking about because the God I believe in is QUITE DIFFERENT...a lot kinder..a lot cooler...a lot nicer....a lot more comforting...a lot wiser...

None of this sin bullshit or stupid fucking rules or fairy tales or fear to keep me living a soulless life....

My beliefs are closest to Pagan, Wiccan, Taoism, Buddhist.....

I resent some Christians who get in my face trying to define God...or define me. I think they are a dark force on earth...and very young souls....

I have seen a lot of cool old soul Christians who are usually liberal...respect Jesus and practice the things he taught..and have none of the lower natured bullshit of the loud obnoxious ones. I usually find their interpretation of God close to my own...the vibe is the same...

 

[Kyanimal]

^ eastofeden

AWESOME!

Keep Smilin'!!
Chaz

 

[Brian Smith]

@eastofeden, that's why I don't hate all Christians. I know a gay Pentecostal Christian with HIV, and he is obsessed with living in the way of his Jesus, which he sees as being absolute self-sacrifice and pure love in the form of a man. He even takes in people like crack whores and tries to rehabilitate them. The night we first met, he scooped me up literally off the street and gave me a place to stay, and he utterly and totally embraced and accepted me for what I was and all of what I was. He's all-out. He doesn't reserve anything. He is an incredibly pure human being.

But like I said above, there are certain people who call themselves Christians, and really, I would sooner make macrame out of their intestines as look at some of them. There are so-called Christians who are really pathetic excuses for human beings, and some of them are just horrifyingly cruel and unabashedly selfish and Machiavellian.

Those of us who are atheists and skeptics, maybe the young ones who just recently got interested in skepticism can't tell, but those of us who are more wise and have been around for a while, we can tell. The difference is like black and white. It is absolute naked and beautiful purity vs. absolute corruption, ugliness and tackiness. The good ones, they lay their souls absolutely bare for you. The bad ones? It's all smoke and mirrors.

Here is a study worth reading:

http://psychsocgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/60/4/P207.full

In the end, what is important is not what you believe. What is important is knowing what you believe. Be willing to face the ruler of the universe with your convictions, whatever they are, without doubt or fear, knowing that you did your best. That is what takes away your fear. Just know who you are.

 

[ludolfo]

Quote Originally Posted by ludolfo View Post
And all that is the recipe for Satanism.

No. The Satan in Job was clearly acting at the behest of Job's god. This is self-evident from the opening pages of the book.

No, but when talking about 'Satanism' we are not talking about that interpretation--ie of 'Satan' being like a prosecuting attorney for the 'God'. It is more the Satanist's version of 'Satan' ('him') as being an adversary of God---ironically which is the popular Christian idea which 'evolved' into their contrived character of the 'Devil'. The sole enemy of God!

For the Satanist/Luciferian, 'they' Satan/Lucifer are rebel-liberators against what they see as the evil biblical creator God Yahweh/Jehova

Now here is an interesting thing: yesterday I saw a video which showed the extent of the Satanists/Luciferians pushing of their religion through the mindcontroling means of pop videos/entertainment, etc. EVERYWHERE, saturated, is the symbolism of the pyramid with the all-seeing eyes and these popsters, celebs, covering one eye, and making the 'diamond shape' with their hand and we saw audiences doing the same (reminding me of the mesmerized masses in the film 1984) etc etc etc

God-fearing Christians then will associate half naked female singers, being sexually provocative, and queer sexuality, and psychedelic exploration, etc etc with being anti-God because they associate all that with Satanism and Luciferianism. See what I mean? Black and white.

So anyway, if he is right, this means that the prevailing religion is Satanism. And at the end this video-maler goes on a Bible-thumping rant over filmed images of a very bloody Jesus dying on the cross. it is all very good versus evil territory. And THAT theme is what I see as the problem. it is the patriarchal game. it is the patriarchy playing both sides...?

Picture a football game. Looking above at the playing field--a rectangle with its measured out partitions and rules-of-the-game. But you are looking OUTSIDE of the box/rectangle at it and you see that the very same man-ager is owning both sides. Does this mean your being played?

 

[Brian Smith]

No, but when talking about 'Satanism' we are not talking about that interpretation--ie of 'Satan' being like a prosecuting attorney for the 'God'. It is more the Satanist's version of 'Satan' ('him') as being an adversary of God---ironically which is the popular Christian idea which 'evolved' into their contrived character of the 'Devil'. The sole enemy of God!

For the Satanist/Luciferian, 'they' Satan/Lucifer are rebel-liberators against what they see as the evil biblical creator God Yahweh/Jehova

Now here is an interesting thing: yesterday I saw a video which showed the extent of the Satanists/Luciferians pushing of their religion through the mindcontroling means of pop videos/entertainment, etc. EVERYWHERE, saturated, is the symbolism of the pyramid with the all-seeing eyes and these popsters, celebs, covering one eye, and making the 'diamond shape' with their hand and we saw audiences doing the same (reminding me of the mesmerized masses in the film 1984) etc etc etc

God-fearing Christians then will associate half naked female singers, being sexually provocative, and queer sexuality, and psychedelic exploration, etc etc with being anti-God because they associate all that with Satanism and Luciferianism. See what I mean? Black and white.

So anyway, if he is right, this means that the prevailing religion is Satanism. And at the end this video-maler goes on a Bible-thumping rant over filmed images of a very bloody Jesus dying on the cross. it is all very good versus evil territory. And THAT theme is what I see as the problem. it is the patriarchal game. it is the patriarchy playing both sides...?

Picture a football game. Looking above at the playing field--a rectangle with its measured out partitions and rules-of-the-game. But you are looking OUTSIDE of the box/rectangle at it and you see that the very same man-ager is owning both sides. Does this mean your being played?

I tell religiously pushy individuals that you can take me as an atheist, or you can take me as a worshiper as Ningishzida, the Sumerian god of the underworld.

What they don't realize is that Ningishzida was really, in part of his disposition, a god of health and fertility, similar to Asclepius. If you revere medicine and its value, then you revere Asclepius in spirit, since reverence for Asclepius was merely a proxy for the reverence of the art of medicine. If you go into any place where legitimate medicine is practiced, then you are under the care of Asclepius, who is not unlike Ningishzida.

Although Ningishzida was originally a tree god and not directly related to Asclepius...regardless...

We are all pagan, and our gods are ancient.

 

[Brian Smith]

Oh, poo. Something happened to my image of the Rod of Asclepius.

And by the way, if you are going to use an Egyptian symbol, pertaining to the eye, a more handsome image would be that of a falcon.

There was a time when Falcon domesticated Man. Falcon looked down from her usual perch on a rocky ledge, and she saw Man chasing after Hare. Hare was a very quick sort of creature, and Man had little hope of catching Hare.

Well, Falcon realized that Man had an unusual talent--because he was so noisy with his speech--of rousting animals from their warrens, and Falcon said to Man, "You just take your stick, Man, and roust Hare from his warren. That is all that you need to do. You do your job, Man, and I shall reward you."

In time, Man learned from Falcon how to use his eyes and patience when he hunts, and Man borrowed the feathers of Falcon in order to teach his arrows how to fly. Man became a hunter exceeding the skill of Falcon herself. For thousands of years, though, Man continued to worship and revere Falcon. In time, Man created great cities for Falcon to live and hunt in, and Falcon presides even today over her pet, watching over him with her keen eye.

Of course, the oldest form of religion is that which uses simple stories to explain why things are as they are.

 

[LAPan75]

Do you mean The God (Christian), a God (of the Hundreds/Thousands), or something more like the God Particle?​