Do you believe in God ?

[magikarping]

You made a flat assertion about religion. Even one case contrary is enough to falsify such an assertion.

Sounds like you didn't like me responding to your attempt at generalization with....drum roll please...another generalization. This is why I prefaced it with "You've reminded me..."

I was actually going to respond at first to your anecdote with basically what you've said here, but I decided to be a bit of a troll and use the same tactic.

At this point, I think this line of conversation is unproductive and derailing this thread. I'm dropping this now.

 

[Jacquemar]

For a while now, I've been reading this series of books called "Ancient Philosophies." Each single volume elucidates the complex beliefs of one school of philosophy. The series covers The Pre-Socratics down to Neoplatonism. Now that I'm aware of so many models of who or what god is (outside of the old Judeo-Christian model), my skepticism is relaxing and I'm thinking that there may be something more or less non-intelligible and non anthropomorphic out there.

 

[popple]

God/Evil : if only bad guys are going to hell, it means Evil is only a guardian designed by God to take care of bad souls... No ?

In fact, i don't believe in any God, or divine power, or Destiny...
I think we are the result of probabilities, and there is no reason.
And why should it be an answer to the question "why" ?
As an athropologist, i know that a religion is essentially a social phenomen that structures the power within a group (discipline), by telling there is a truth (a part of the power) only for believers... Others are banned.
But i do have a spirituality : i believe in human creativity and the power of intellect. So as a community we can solve common problems and search for progresses.

 

[Peloso]

Do you believe in God?

I believe there are forces of nature that we are unable to perceive, are incapable of understanding, or both.

So, no.

 

[Telstra]

There have been some well thought out ideas expressed in this thread and I appreciate this discussion.

I believe that there is life after death, so it is probable that I would believe in God. I stated in this forum a couple of years ago that a relative occasionally saw people who could walk through closed doors and then found out that person had died at about that time of the day. Another relative felt the presence of someone or otherwise realized that a dead person was present. In addition there are thousands of stories of ghosts and of people who had out of body experiences, perhaps during an operation. Even if some of the stories aren't true, that still leaves thousands which are true. With thousands of witnesses over thousands of years I believe that is sufficient proof of life after death. If I believe in life after death, it is likely that I would believe in some sort of God. That still leaves room for a wide range of ideas of what God is and what life after death is. Since I was raised as a Catholic Christian, my idea of God is related to what Christianity teaches about God.

the things you are describing here are ''feelings'' in the head.
No evidence at all.

 

[Jacquemar]

It's a bad idea to believe something just because so many others do or have. Let's remember that some of the greatest minds of the ancient world believed in a geocentric universe and we all know how that turned out.

 

[Pierresro]

and why ?


*** I know I know it is such a boring topic,
but there are still Churches and Mosques you know !!!

Once I knew what the Catholic Church was doing and is doing it was done for me.Reading about the people they murdered 100´s of years ago shows just who they are. I live for the day That Ratzinger and Frances aree gone!

 

[TX-Beau]

God/Evil : if only bad guys are going to hell, it means Evil is only a guardian designed by God to take care of bad souls... No ?

In fact, i don't believe in any God, or divine power, or Destiny...
I think we are the result of probabilities, and there is no reason.
And why should it be an answer to the question "why" ?
As an athropologist, i know that a religion is essentially a social phenomen that structures the power within a group (discipline), by telling there is a truth (a part of the power) only for believers... Others are banned.
But i do have a spirituality : i believe in human creativity and the power of intellect. So as a community we can solve common problems and search for progresses.

I actually doubt most Christians in the U.S. really believe. It's the accepted answer to the faith question, and their practice of it looks far more like custom and practice than devotion.

 

[Kulindahr]

the things you are describing here are ''feelings'' in the head.
No evidence at all.

Feelings in whose head?

There are documented cases of people who were pronounced dead but got resuscitated who once they returned to consciousness described what had gone on in the emergency room while they were medically dead.

And when one of my great-aunts died, in the hospital, at least two cousins reported her being seen at their houses where she announced "It's time for me to go" -- at which point they called the hospital and found that the doctors were trying to resuscitate her; they declared her dead while one of the cousins was still on the phone.

Then there was the time I was making the 110-mile trip from my apartment at the university to home by bicycle, and was about halfway done when suddenly I just knew I needed to catch a ride. We found out later that our pastor suddenly just knew he needed to turn around and go to a certain hospital a half hour after I stopped pedaling and stuck my thumb out. I got a ride within half a minute and got dropped off at home just as everyone was getting into the car to go to the hospital. At the hospital we encountered our pastor, who had arrived a few minutes before Life Flight had delivered my younger brother to the emergency room. When we put the timing together, it turned out that the moment I suddenly knew I needed to catch a ride was before my brother was in the accident and the moment our pastor suddenly knew he needed to go to that hospital was the moment Life Flight had lifted into the air with my younger brother aboard.

There are too many accounts like this to claim "No evidence at all".

 

[Rickrock]

the things you are describing here are ''feelings'' in the head.
No evidence at all.

The people who saw dead people moving about and walk through closed doors, it wasn't in their heads but in plain eyesight.

 

[Peloso]

There are too many accounts like this to claim "No evidence at all".

Yes but why must every unexplained phenomena be chalked up to to a higher power?

There are plenty of unknowns in scientific study but these gaps of knowledge are never attributed to God.

 

[Kulindahr]

... a relative occasionally saw people who could walk through closed doors and then found out that person had died at about that time of the day. Another relative felt the presence of someone or otherwise realized that a dead person was present. In addition there are thousands of stories of ghosts and of people who had out of body experiences, perhaps during an operation. Even if some of the stories aren't true, that still leaves thousands which are true. With thousands of witnesses over thousands of years I believe that is sufficient proof of life after death.

the things you are describing here are ''feelings'' in the head.
No evidence at all.

Feelings in whose head?

There are documented cases of people who were pronounced dead but got resuscitated who once they returned to consciousness described what had gone on in the emergency room while they were medically dead.

And when one of my great-aunts died, in the hospital, at least two cousins reported her being seen at their houses where she announced "It's time for me to go" -- at which point they called the hospital and found that the doctors were trying to resuscitate her; they declared her dead while one of the cousins was still on the phone.

Then there was the time I was making the 110-mile trip from my apartment at the university to home by bicycle, and was about halfway done when suddenly I just knew I needed to catch a ride. We found out later that our pastor suddenly just knew he needed to turn around and go to a certain hospital a half hour after I stopped pedaling and stuck my thumb out. I got a ride within half a minute and got dropped off at home just as everyone was getting into the car to go to the hospital. At the hospital we encountered our pastor, who had arrived a few minutes before Life Flight had delivered my younger brother to the emergency room. When we put the timing together, it turned out that the moment I suddenly knew I needed to catch a ride was before my brother was in the accident and the moment our pastor suddenly knew he needed to go to that hospital was the moment Life Flight had lifted into the air with my younger brother aboard.

There are too many accounts like this to claim "No evidence at all".

Yes but why must every unexplained phenomena be chalked up to to a higher power?

There are plenty of unknowns in scientific study but these gaps of knowledge are never attributed to God.

That's the conversation--

Rickrock related reported experiences; Telstra said those are just "feelings in the head"; I reported things that along with what Rickrock said cannot be explained by "feelings in the head".

Where in the above conversation did I ascribe anything to any power at all, let alone a "higher" one?

 

[Jacquemar]

The people who saw dead people moving about and walk through closed doors, it wasn't in their heads but in plain eyesight.

Have you got a video or a photograph or SOMETHING objective that hasn't been tainted by sense-perception?

 

[Kulindahr]

Have you got a video or a photograph or SOMETHING objective that hasn't been tainted by sense-perception?

Multiple independent witnesses to the same event would also work.

 

[Peloso]

That's the conversation--

Rickrock related reported experiences; Telstra said those are just "feelings in the head"; I reported things that along with what Rickrock said cannot be explained by "feelings in the head".

Where in the above conversation did I ascribe anything to any power at all, let alone a "higher" one?

You didn't. I was spurred into joining the convo after Rickrock said I believe that there is life after death, so it is probable that I would believe in God.


I probably should have read the thread more carefully. My apologies.

But what is this "evidence" you speak of?

 

[Rickrock]

Have you got a video or a photograph or SOMETHING objective that hasn't been tainted by sense-perception?

Nope, just thousands of eye witnesses over thousands of years, including some from family members. Those that happened to my grandmother were at least fifty years ago. Even if they had been recently no one walks around with a video camera attached to their chest 24 hours a day to take pictures of events. One of my grandmother's was when she got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and her brother-in-law walked through her kitchen and out the locked back door without opening it. He died the next day. These are never planned events.

 

[Kulindahr]

You didn't. I was spurred into joining the convo after Rickrock said I believe that there is life after death, so it is probable that I would believe in God.


I probably should have read the thread more carefully. My apologies.

But what is this "evidence" you speak of?

In the two posts I quoted.

 

[Jacquemar]

Nope, just thousands of eye witnesses over thousands of years, including some from family members. Those that happened to my grandmother were at least fifty years ago. Even if they had been recently no one walks around with a video camera attached to their chest 24 hours a day to take pictures of events. One of my grandmother's was when she got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and her brother-in-law walked through her kitchen and out the locked back door without opening it. He died the next day. These are never planned events.

Well, you believe what you believe. This is not sufficient for me.

 

[TX-Beau]

Nope, just thousands of eye witnesses over thousands of years, including some from family members. Those that happened to my grandmother were at least fifty years ago. Even if they had been recently no one walks around with a video camera attached to their chest 24 hours a day to take pictures of events. One of my grandmother's was when she got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and her brother-in-law walked through her kitchen and out the locked back door without opening it. He died the next day. These are never planned events.

If there are thousands of witnesses over thousands of years, why us it that none of them ever got proof, and no "my granny said so" is not proof, problem one - hearsay. What you are doing is passing on third party assertions without any backup. You make the claim, you are responsible for it, and the more super natural the claim gets, the higher the bar for proof becomes.

Problem two, trying to appeal to the authority of numbers. Well, first off you haven't demonstrated that there are thousands of people over thousands of years, you have your granny, and that is just an anecdote - see above. The main issue is that thousands of people over thousands of years can be dead wrong. How many people over how many years right up to the present looked out their window and told themselves - yup - flat earth, do you think? That didn't turn out too well for them either.

Three, a whole hell of a lot of people walk around with a camera either on their person, or in close proximity 24/7. The next time you or any of your thousands see a spectral not quite dead yet person - make a fucking video.

 

[Rickrock]

^ Thank you for your opinion.