Do you believe in God ?

[Kulindahr]

Nevertheless, if something is lost, much more is created. Our ears are bombarded with a barrage of waves from the air and our brains turn it into the works of Mozart and Puccini. Our eyes receive a mixture of electromagnetic waves and create stained glass windows.

I thought that you at least might see the implications of the links suggesting we live in a matrix or simulation for the God argument. While many scientists are atheists, here we have reputable scientists saying it is highly probable that will live in a simulation created by beings (or our descendants)which we cannot see. And, as I have pointed out, this is consistent with our knowledge that much of what we experience of the world is a simulation created in our own minds.

I seriously have to believe your knowledge of science doesn't extend past grammar school, or you couldn't make such statements about "a barrage of waves from the air": our ears don't "turn it into the works of Mozart and Puccini", the musical instruments do that. What our ears do is receive what the musical instruments put out and pass that to the brain -- so you are incorrect about both the physics and the biology.

Ditto the stained glass window situation: our brains create nothing; as far as stained glass windows go, that word can only be applied to the misinformation supplied by its ability to ignore the individual pieces of glass and see it as a whole picture. That's a phenomenon I made use of often as a handyman; the brain ignores small errors in lines and curves, editing them out because it wants there to be a consistent pattern, so when painting on a second storey, for example, I didn't have to worry about taping to get perfect lines knowing that the eyes of those looking at the wall would literally not see the occasional small wander.

 

[Kulindahr]

The human person perceives its experiences, or stimuli as an individual human being.

Perception determines how each human being responds to any given stimuli.

Were the human race part of a matrix manipulated by an advanced brain, there could be only one result for all responding as a herd of sheep would.

Free will is the evidence that each human person determines our own fate, according to our freely chosen decisions.

That human beings can make choices there can be no control, or manipulation by a super brain acting as ones puppeteer.

We would only respond "as a herd of sheep" if that was what was programmed into the simulation. A simulation does not mean there is a "puppeteer". And free will cannot be used as evidence in such a case, because science can't decide if there is free will, only that we believe we have and exercise it, which is not the same thing at all.

 

[Kulindahr]

^Where do you get the idea that a simulation exists, in which every human being is a product of a computer program?

Free will evidences the free choice of a human being to make its own life, without being manipulated by a puppeteer.

Have your choices always been the correct ones, or are you continuing to learn that making the right choice is still fraught with the risk of making the wrong choice?

Where do you get the idea that if a simulation exists, that constitutes there being a puppeteer?

From a science perspective, a simulation doesn't tell what will happen, it is run to find out what will happen.

 

[kallipolis]

Where do you get the idea that if a simulation exists, that constitutes there being a puppeteer?

From a science perspective, a simulation doesn't tell what will happen, it is run to find out what will happen.

If one argues that there is a simulation, then there is a designer, and that designer programs the simulation to serve its purpose.

From the perspective of one who is using a program there is the thought that my input on my computer, serves my purpose.

 

[kallipolis]

We would only respond "as a herd of sheep" if that was what was programmed into the simulation. A simulation does not mean there is a "puppeteer". And free will cannot be used as evidence in such a case, because science can't decide if there is free will, only that we believe we have and exercise it, which is not the same thing at all.

Computer programs serve the purpose of the program designer.

Where there is a simulation, there is a program that works within defined parameters, evidencing slaves serving the will of the designer, per the program constructed to the designer's specifications.

 

[Benvolio]

I seriously have to believe your knowledge of science doesn't extend past grammar school, or you couldn't make such statements about "a barrage of waves from the air": our ears don't "turn it into the works of Mozart and Puccini", the musical instruments do that. What our ears do is receive what the musical instruments put out and pass that to the brain -- so you are incorrect about both the physics and the biology.

Ditto the stained glass window situation: our brains create nothing; as far as stained glass windows go, that word can only be applied to the misinformation supplied by its ability to ignore the individual pieces of glass and see it as a whole picture. That's a phenomenon I made use of often as a handyman; the brain ignores small errors in lines and curves, editing them out because it wants there to be a consistent pattern, so when painting on a second storey, for example, I didn't have to worry about taping to get perfect lines knowing that the eyes of those looking at the wall would literally not see the occasional small wander.

You forget, this is a no flame zone.
You do not understand. The musical instruments do not create sound, just a hodgepodge of vibrations in the air. No, the ears do not pass it on to the brain. The ears convert vibrations to electrons impulses and send them to the brain. Then the brain creates what we experience as sound. Quite different from waves in the air.
A stained glass window would be nothing without the light and the colors, but colors and indeed light as we experience them are created in the brain as a way to sort out electro magnetic waves of different lengths. The universe outside is a dark and silent place.

 

[Kulindahr]

Computer programs serve the purpose of the program designer.

Where there is a simulation, there is a program that works within defined parameters, evidencing slaves serving the will of the designer, per the program constructed to the designer's specifications.

Your use of the term "slaves" demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what programming can do these days. As I said, in science terms, running a simulation isn't about making the elements do wht you want, it's to find out what they'll do. Indeed, for a truly rich simulation, you don't WANT the simulation to have anything at all reminiscent of "slaves", you want it to run with the elements having what can't be distinguished from "free will".

 

[Kulindahr]

You forget, this is a no flame zone.
You do not understand. The musical instruments do not create sound, just a hodgepodge of vibrations in the air. No, the ears do not pass it on to the brain. The ears convert vibrations to electrons impulses and send them to the brain. Then the brain creates what we experience as sound. Quite different from waves in the air.
A stained glass window would be nothing without the light and the colors, but colors and indeed light as we experience them are created in the brain as a way to sort out electro magnetic waves of different lengths. The universe outside is a dark and silent place.

This statement is sufficiently in error it would have gotten a D in both Physics of Light and Color and Physics of Sound and Music when I was in college. The brain doesn't "create" anything, it builds a model; "vibrations in the air" are precisely what sound IS (and musical instruments do NOT create a "hodgepdoge", they create a very orderly set of sound waves).

 

[kallipolis]

Your use of the term "slaves" demonstrates a lack of knowledge of what programming can do these days. As I said, in science terms, running a simulation isn't about making the elements do wht you want, it's to find out what they'll do. Indeed, for a truly rich simulation, you don't WANT the simulation to have anything at all reminiscent of "slaves", you want it to run with the elements having what can't be distinguished from "free will".

A programmer knows very well that their program is designed to serve their purpose, that of providing them with the result that they have designed.

Thus a program will demonstrate all that the program designer builds into their program, including responding to the commands of the programmer, evidencing the slave features of the program.

 

[Benvolio]

This statement is sufficiently in error it would have gotten a D in both Physics of Light and Color and Physics of Sound and Music when I was in college. The brain doesn't "create" anything, it builds a model; "vibrations in the air" are precisely what sound IS (and musical instruments do NOT create a "hodgepdoge", they create a very orderly set of sound waves).

You still don't get it. I have always specified sound AS WE EXPERIENCE IT. Sound as we experience it is entirely different from waves in the air. Sound as we experience it does not exist outside our minds. Pain, as we experience it, is created by our brains as a way for our conscious mind to experience the electrical impulses send when an injury occurrs. You would not think that it exists in the needle penetrating the skin. It is created by the mind. Sound, light and color also are created in the mind as a way for us to perceive the electronic impulses from the eyes and ears.
You have heard the old question, does a tree falling make a sound if there is no one to hear it? The correct answer is no, it creates waves in the air, but ears and a brain are needed to create sound as we experience it. See http://www.cycleback.com/treefalls.html

 

[kallipolis]

You still don't get it. I have always specified sound AS WE EXPERIENCE IT. Sound as we experience it is entirely different from waves in the air. Sound as we experience it does not exist outside our minds. Pain, as we experience it, is created by our brains as a way for our conscious mind to experience the electrical impulses send when an injury occurrs. You would not think that it exists in the needle penetrating the skin. It is created by the mind. Sound, light and color also are created in the mind as a way for us to perceive the electronic impulses from the eyes and ears.
You have heard the old question, does a tree falling make a sound if there is no one to hear it? The correct answer is no, it creates waves in the air, but ears and a brain are needed to create sound as we experience it.

From my perspective your post is credible until your last line...

....the brain does not create sound, rather processes what it detects, that we may interpret the result of the processing.

A sight impaired, and/or hearing impaired person's senses are compromised therefore cannot perform the function of processing the stimuli that you, or I would.

 

[Kulindahr]

A programmer knows very well that their program is designed to serve their purpose, that of providing them with the result that they have designed.

Thus a program will demonstrate all that the program designer builds into their program, including responding to the commands of the programmer, evidencing the slave features of the program.

I cringe at reading this because it wasn't true even back when I was taking computer programming classes at OSU back around 1990, and is far less true now. You're thinking of programs like apps, not of simulations. Simulations require what we call free will, and when combined with learning algorithms within the programs, can and do turn out results that not only did the programmer not ask for, but never imagined.

 

[Kulindahr]

You still don't get it. I have always specified sound AS WE EXPERIENCE IT. Sound as we experience it is entirely different from waves in the air. Sound as we experience it does not exist outside our minds. Pain, as we experience it, is created by our brains as a way for our conscious mind to experience the electrical impulses send when an injury occurrs. You would not think that it exists in the needle penetrating the skin. It is created by the mind. Sound, light and color also are created in the mind as a way for us to perceive the electronic impulses from the eyes and ears.
You have heard the old question, does a tree falling make a sound if there is no one to hear it? The correct answer is no, it creates waves in the air, but ears and a brain are needed to create sound as we experience it. See http://www.cycleback.com/treefalls.html

Well, if you're pulling a Berkeley, sure.

But in scientific terms, if a tree falls in the forest there is sound, because that's when happens when one thing crashes into another in a transmittive medium.

 

[kallipolis]

I cringe at reading this because it wasn't true even back when I was taking computer programming classes at OSU back around 1990, and is far less true now. You're thinking of programs like apps, not of simulations. Simulations require what we call free will, and when combined with learning algorithms within the programs, can and do turn out results that not only did the programmer not ask for, but never imagined.

A simulation is the outcome of a program generated to perform a function.

The function of a simulation is designed by a programmer to serve their purpose.

A simulation that exists by right of its designer evidences its slave features by performing its functions in accordance with the commands of its program designer.

 

[kallipolis]

A computer simulation or a computer model is a computer program that attempts to simulate an abstract model of a particular system. Computer simulation cannot of its own volition perform functions that its programmer has not built into its system.

The reliability of any given computer simulation depends entirely upon the validity of the simulation model.

I am familiar with sci fi movies, and books where computer simulations develop functions that were not programmed by their designers. I thoroughly enjoy being entertained by science fiction films.

 

[Benvolio]

Both of you are defining sound as waves in the air and failing to recognize the diferencd between sound waves and sound as we experience it in our minds, which is very different.

 

[zoltanspawn]

^I would agree with Benvolio on this count. Distinguishing between the perception of sound, and its origin, is simply a more nuanced account and therefore superior.

To say that sound is all one thing, whether a sentience is present to regard it or not, eliminates the more complex role that we play in hearing things.

 

[Kulindahr]

A simulation is the outcome of a program generated to perform a function.

The function of a simulation is designed by a programmer to serve their purpose.

A simulation that exists by right of its designer evidences its slave features by performing its functions in accordance with the commands of its program designer.

If this is true, then there is no free will, because any Creator is just a programmer and we are all slaves.

 

[Kulindahr]

A computer simulation or a computer model is a computer program that attempts to simulate an abstract model of a particular system. Computer simulation cannot of its own volition perform functions that its programmer has not built into its system.

The reliability of any given computer simulation depends entirely upon the validity of the simulation model.

I am familiar with sci fi movies, and books where computer simulations develop functions that were not programmed by their designers. I thoroughly enjoy being entertained by science fiction films.

The statement I put in bold is false -- it has to be, or high-level simulations are useless. The best simulations these days, indeed some of the best software, isn't written by the programmers at all, but developed by the computers themselves. Just as an example, there are robots which are not told at all how to do anything, or even what they are capable of, they merely have feedback built in for the various abilities they have. They learn those abilities, learn what they can do with them, and if issued an instruction generate their own strategies and tactics for achieving it. Some have even learned along the way to do things the designers never imagined for them.

High-level simulations have such AIs built in. The universe in which we live is indistinguishable from such a simulation -- and from any other universe brought into being by a Creator.

 

[Kulindahr]

Both of you are defining sound as waves in the air and failing to recognize the diferencd between sound waves and sound as we experience it in our minds, which is very different.

But it isn't "very different" -- that's the point. Except when our minds lie to us in order to maintain an appearance of order(liness), the amazing thing is the congruity between reality and perception. Just as an example with sound, when we hear harmonies, we are hearing a level of order that is actually there and is significantly different from non- or disharmony.