Do you believe in spirits ?

[zoltanspawn]

So in addition to "atheism" denoting "the conclusion that any sort of god seems highly improbable," atheism does also often denote the political activity of those who are just fed up with the religiously entitled imposing their speculative views on our shared world. Beliefs that are -- as defined in this thread -- private, purely personal, and beyond the realm of debate or external appreciation, have no place in public life.

Anyway, a political dimension does not make atheism a belief system either, even if that political bent were embraced by every atheist, which it is not. It makes it not willing to lay down and die in the face of obscure and pernicious omnipresent assumptions of the religiously entitled.

As frequently as I find myself disagreeing with many of your opinions on religion and atheism, I find this post very refreshing. I think you're adding something to the conversation that I think we can build on.

 

[Jacquemar]

do I see any of those traits amongst the Atheists in this forum? No, I do not evidences of the traits here.

Then you're obviously not looking.

 

[kallipolis]

kallipolis, I think you are confusing "belief" with "political movement."

Atheistic beliefs may well have a political dimension when the atheist campaigner insists that their beliefs should represent government policy, as it was in the Soviet Union when Christian religious symbols were removed from public buildings, and replaced with images of the new saviours of the people such as Lenin, and Stalin in recognition of the role political leaders represent in an atheistic Utopia.

Moreover, atheism like all religions must have its saints, and in more recent times we can consider that Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris have been dutifully canonised by acclamation of the atheist proletariat their respective gospels receiving much publicity on this forum.

 

[FirmaFan]

What are atheistic beliefs? Atheists don't believe one universal thing. In fact, they differ in many ways. There are many different kinds of atheists. Atheism isn't a religion. I don't know how many times I can say this. Atheism doesn't have saints, and don't appoint saints. Not all atheists agree, and there is no set atheist "belief" system. Atheists also don't follow texts and prescribe moral laws. One can talk about the Soviet Union, but that's absolutely irrelevant. The Russian Orthodox Church was strong throughout its existence, and is very strong right now.

And now equating Stalin and Lenin to atheism? Well I can equate Hitler, Mussolini, Videla and Pinochet to Christianity... it's weak.

Keep posting the anti-atheist rhetoric. It doesn't make it factual.

Given the nature of Kalli's last post, I would say it is useless to go on addressing his arguments further. He is no so far removed from reality with regards to what atheism is that any argument to the contrary would be pointless. It is not like this is the first time a person has made the kinds of claims he has about the nature of non-belief in god(s), nor is it the first time someone has addressed how utterly ridiculous they are. They are PRATT arguments (Previously Refuted A Thousand Times). Blaming non-belief for the actions of tyrants operating under specific political agendas, or talking about atheism being a religion..and having saints???... now we truly are in the realm of nonsense, fueled by bigotry against those who were lucky enough not to be indoctrinated or have overcome childhood indoctrination into one of the many thousands of different religions that have and/or do exist.

 

[zoltanspawn]

You're the one who was putting words into my mouth by saying that "I agree with you".

What I wrote was "It would seem..." That left it open for you to agree or disagree, and should be considered respectful dialogue. Perhaps instead of responding to posts I'm not making, you should read my words more carefully and then our discussion will profit.

Atheists are neither compulsive or obsessive.

Again, you're disagreeing with a statement I didn't make. What I wrote was atheism can be practiced compulsively and obsessively. If you disagree with that opinion...

"atheist message" (whatever that may be).

Baffled about what an atheist message might be? One rather simple example of an atheist message (though you can find such messages galore in bookstores...on, um, messageboards...purchaseable from atheist stores and espoused at atheist meetings) would be that "there is not good evidence to make a factual claim for the supernatural existence of a perfect being." Well, that seems like an atheist message to me, at least.

 

[Telstra]

You know what, the word "godless" is bad in religious eyes.
That is why they fear godlessness ....

 

[zoltanspawn]

It would seem? That seems to me you're just posting a dodge. I still don't appreciate that. Ask me upfront what I think about an issue, or else this would have been futile.

I've considered my half of the conversation entirely upfront. What I have not considered sufficient is your following of our talk. I'm not 'posting dodges.' On the contrary, you're simply not reading what I've written.

Atheism simply isn't practiced compulsively or obsessively. So there is no "can" in this statement.

Could you repeat that for me?

What an incredible claim. It's as though you are saying atheism isn't susceptible to human faults? (Question mark added to keep things respectful.)

Well, if that's your opinion, okay. Personally, I've met more than a few people who practiced their atheism in a wacko, nutjob sort of way, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

There is no "atheist message".

Sure there is. It's that it's good to have a skeptical response to a claim about the existence of god.

I guess Firmafan is right. THere is severe hatred towards atheists here... almost to the level of bigotry.

Puh-fucking-leeze. I don't believe in god, and used to describe myself as an atheist until I started disliking some of the political rhetoric common to the movement. I don't hate FirmaFan or Bankside or TX-Beau or anyone because they're atheists. I'm very interested, in fact, in people's attitudes about religion and atheism, on the other hand, and I'm grateful for the variety of opinions we enjoy on this forum.

I think it's a mistake to describe our disagreements here as fueled by bigotry.

 

[FirmaFan]

I think it's a mistake to describe our disagreements here as fueled by bigotry.

The specific comments which I described as bigotry come from Kalli's severe misrepresentation about what it is to be an atheist. He did, in fact, blame the actions of Stalin on a disbelief in god (Stalin was actually operating under a specific ideal of communism, one that saw religion as incompatible with that political ideology). He can disagree with the disbelief in god, but if his retort is to say that disbelief causes mass murder and genocide, those are not arguments of reason, they are simply slanderous and in no way show how his particular religious beliefs hold any validity over skeptical disbelief.

 

[kallipolis]

(Stalin was actually operating under a specific ideal of communism, one that saw religion as incompatible with that political ideology).

You neglected to mention the Gulags housing tens of thousands of priests, nuns and lay folk many to die in splendid exile who dared to practise their religion in defiance of anti religion laws imposed by the new atheistic ruling elite allegedly working in the name of the people of the Soviet Union while executing them.

Reason enough for the (former) Soviet regime to translate their atheistic beliefs into extermination of tens of thousands of theists in recognition of the atheistic nature of their beliefs.

Some atheistic Utopia - Hell, on earth.

 

[kallipolis]

I have no beliefs in the regard of religion. NONE, ZERO.

That has been noted on many occasions. I note the repetitive nature of your posts.

 

[kallipolis]

Ah! yes, an acknowledgement that religious belief in all its revelations can create death, and destruction in the name of that religious belief.

Atheism, as much as any other religion exemplifies this truth when we think of Communist Russia, and Communist China.

Balancing the equation is so refreshing, even educational and cathartic when the truth of atheistic religion demonstrates its capacity to replicate the inhumane behaviour of other religions.

 

[Telstra]

You neglected to mention the Gulags housing tens of thousands of priests, nuns and lay folk many to die in splendid exile who dared to practise their religion in defiance of anti religion laws imposed by the new atheistic ruling elite allegedly working in the name of the people of the Soviet Union while executing them.

Reason enough for the (former) Soviet regime to translate their atheistic beliefs into extermination of tens of thousands of theists in recognition of the atheistic nature of their beliefs.

Some atheistic Utopia - Hell, on earth.

Communism is a political ideology.
Nothing to do with both theist nor atheist.

 

[kallipolis]

Communism is a political ideology.
Nothing to do with both theist nor atheist.

A political ideology that adopted atheism as its state religion, even persecuting and imprisoning the leaders, and adherents of other religions such as Christianity.

Read the history of the Gulags in the former atheistic Soviet Union.

France went atheist during its revolutionary period, even creating a religion that served its atheistic beliefs, the Cult of Reason evangelised by the use of torture, and terror:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason

 

[Telstra]

A political ideology that adopted atheism as its state religion, even persecuting and imprisoning the leaders, and adherents of other religions such as Christianity.

Read the history of the Gulags in the former atheistic Soviet Union.

France went atheist during its revolutionary period, even creating a religion that served its atheistic beliefs, the Cult of Reason evangelised by the use of torture, and terror:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_Reason

Not an expert on anything but maybe because of the "cult of reason", that is why Europe produce so many scientists ....

 

[kallipolis]

^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_the_Soviet_Union

I quote from the article:

The history of Christianity in the Soviet Union was not limited to repression and secularization. Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of other religious beliefs.[1]
The state was committed to the destruction of religion[2][3], and to this effect it destroyed churches, mosques and temples, ridiculed, harassed and executed religious leaders, flooded the schools and media with atheistic propaganda, and generally promoted 'scientific atheism' as the truth that society should accept[4][5].

The Soviet regime was ostensibly committed to the complete annihilation of religious institutions and ideas [7]. Militant atheism was central to the ideology of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union[8] and a high priority of all Soviet leaders [3]. Communism required the abolition of religion [3]. Convinced atheists were considered to be more virtuous individuals than those of religious belief [3].

The state established atheism as the only scientific truth.[9][10][11][12][13][14][unreliable source?] Criticism of atheism or the state's anti-religious policies was forbidden and could lead to forced retirement, arrest and/or imprisonment.[15][16][17]

Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture, being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.[24][25][26][27] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind control experimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions (see Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union).[25][26][28] During the first five years of Soviet power, the Bolsheviks executed 28 Russian Orthodox bishops and over 1,200 Russian Orthodox priests. Many others were imprisoned or exiled.[1]

 

[Jacquemar]

Hey Mikey! I see that you're still posting in this thread... Maybe now you could answer my question: How do you know that your beliefs aren't an hallucination??? Please give evidence in your answer.

 

[Telstra]

kallipolis seems to think everything is religion and than turn around and blame Stalinist and Maoist on Atheism which is wrong.

The blame should be on education.
Most Stalinist and Maoist followers during that time were uneducated (peasants) and were easily manipulated like North Korea right now.

So the blame should be on religious ideology because:
Stalinsm = religion
Pol pot = religion (whorship dear leader like north korea)
Moasm = religion
North Korea = state religion (whorship dear leader)



* Atheism = there is no leader, no group, it is just individuals thinking for themselves whether to believe those leaders/preachers/religious books or not.

 

[Telstra]

I am at peace with myself, I have consulted with Spiritual advisors, I have spoken with my Bishop about it. I have had many prayers answered in ways that only I can notice them, and thanking God for revealing them to me alone. Therefore I am quite Sane. Nothing in the secular world that can soothe the Soul more than the Music of the Ancient Gregorian Chants...not even the so-called contemporary Christian Music which leaves me distracted. I could go on and on, and the list still will not convince any of you of the validity of my beliefs and experiences. Do what I have suggested in other threads and forums, and do not quible til you nible. Try it for at least the rest of the Advent days before Christmas (Christian Christmas), then come back to me with your rebuttals, and debates.

This is called meditation.
Good for you for the calmness and peacefulness you found in that practice.

 

[kallipolis]

Militant atheism wasn't part of the Soviet Union. The Russian Orthodox Church was fully allowed to practice and grow. The Church always had significant power under the Soviet Union and Russia. While there was initial persecution of the Orthodox Church, the Soviet Union reversed itself in the 1950s under Khrushchev.

The history book states the contrary.

I note that you have chosen to ignore the article that I have posted for your better education.

It would appear that acquainting you with the facts is a waste of time.

 

[zoltanspawn]

But how do you think it feels when people are on here posting that all atheists (or at least most) are like Stalin or Brezhnev?

It must feel...hallucinatory.