Do you really hold yourself accountable?

[2243]

whatever do you mean by this?????????????

Well, you quoted me replying that Elvin was fine. Where did you get the idea that I thought Elvin was not fine?

 

[2243]

Umm.. No need to get defensive. He never said you disrespected anyone. He simply said that you turned the discussion into a debate. No insults were said towards you, so the hostility really isn't needed.

Thank you

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

Well, you quoted me replying that Elvin was fine. Where did you get the idea that I thought Elvin was not fine?

elvin is cool and fine
one of nicest guys here
don't ever turn my words around again
don't ever do this again........................
OK

now you can go away too.

 

[PreTTy PeTe]

hey elvin

lets stop answering these [removed by Moderator]

 

[2243]

this wasn't cat fight
when we fight we fight and then we make up

it about respestling the other guys opinion

but hey you don't want that

No, I think in this thread (well, personally) what I want is to BOTH respect and discuss others opinions.

 

[2243]

..........

How does that spell out cat fight to you? I did not say cat fight.

 

[2243]

elvin is cool and fine
one of nicest guys here
don't ever turn my words around again
don't ever do this again........................
OK

now you can go away too.

I will not go away and I am not turning your words around, but IF I wanted to I will do so. You are welcome to go away if you don't like that.

 

[2243]

Yeah, I don't see it either. I'm confused as well. (lmao)

lol. You said it earlier and I will second it, "It's like talking to a wall".

 

[MikeHere]

Dorkzilla likes to talk about people on high horses. It seems he would need a ladder to get down from his pony.

 

[G-Lexington]

If anyone - gay or straight - has any problem with the way I'm living my life, the problem rests squarely on them, not me.

Lex

 

[2243]

RestlessOne, perhaps to suggest a compromise is a good idea. Although, I believe that the straight community is a diverse community and if you are going to identify a community (a homophobic one) inside of another, then you also must acknowledge that the gay community, which is also a diverse one, has another community (a flamboyant one) inside of it. Personally, I don't like to divide it this way, just feels like we're creating more labels and I don't like labels. So then, if the friction is between those two (umm..) sub- or inner-communities (?) it still affects those who are part of the larger community and while we can suggest to compromise, in the end, the decision to go through with the compromise would be up to the (flamboyant) sub- or inner-community. After all, wouldn't you agree that it would be wrong for some one to judge and then try and tell an entire community how to behave? That is what I was getting from Elvin's and many other's posts. Still, this message of compromise, which I believe to be your own, is a good one. I just hope we all realize it's only a suggestion.

 

[AlinCanada]

Younger guys have it so much different especially here. When the mid 80's where happening and I was their age it was a night mare to come out. But we needed to not just to support those that had done so before us but because we had things we wanted to say, and because are friends where being allowed to die all around us. So yes we did have a connection to the community, and we also drew our strength from each other. A strength which has with those that went before created more relaxed attitude regardless of where in the world you go. And which has actually created true equality in many western nations (not counting the USA).
From this more and more people will draw their strength in order to move ahead in ensuring their rights in their homelands and abroad. The community mattered then and matters now not necesarily for what we have but maybe even more importantly for what others are denied.

 

[2243]

Same goes for the idea of compromise. The choice to compromise has to be an internal one for each individual to make on his own. I'm not advocating that a certain community should change anything or deny any part of themselves.

I took Elvin's posts as him acting on behalf of himself in the position of contemplating these choices -- Just as any of the rest of us would do. Despite community associations, these choices are still on the individual level. Which choice one makes is just another decision for himself as to which sub-community he belongs to (those who chose to compromise vs. those who chose not to, for example).

Like I said though, I'm not trying to suggest one way or the other but sometimes it's hard to acknowledge both sides without unintentionally coming across as favoring one over the other. I'm just stating what I think the issue is and offering my assessment of it.

Well, of course, I agree that Elvin's posts were him acting on his own behalf. I also agree with you that this choice to compromise is a choice an individual has to make for them-selves; however, I think it's hard to miss that Elvin's posts, whether he knew it or not, expressed that he would not agree. I do believe every one is entitled to their own opinion, but this:

"that shit should remain in the bedroom. I don't see how being gay equals to wearing makeup and to go skipping down the street and to carry a flag."


"I don't tolerate ridiculousness from the straight community, I will not tolerate it from the gay community either."


"I have effeminate friends and friends that are drag queens. They happen to act like normal human beings."


"BTW, if you think that fools like Chris Crocker or scene queens are courageous, you don't even know what courage is."


"They can be effeminate and not be disrespectful or embarassing. They can be effeminate and not be scene queens."


"Being yourself and being a clown looking for attention are two different issues."


"Those who are themselves do it with dignity and don't have to throw it in people's faces. Those who scream the loudest, do it to get attention and to stir shit up."


"And honey, whenever a man puts on a dress, he is performing. Wether it's on a stage on alone in his bedroom."

These comments and other similar comments in the "Chris Croker Getting His Own TV Show!" thread are condescending, overgeneralizing, and judgmental.

You've mentioned that you're not favoring one side over the other. So, I guess I don't have much else to say to you except that maybe you can ask Elvin why he feels he can decide who is being normal or being them-selves and who is not, since he said he will not answer me anymore.

 

[miatajeff]

This is pretty interesting. It seems that so much gets lost when reading someone's typing. It seems that there is alot of misundersatnding each other in this thread.

dorkzilla brought up a great question. It has morphed into quite a discussion. My two cents are this

1. We can never know what anyone's life is really like, so statements like, young people have it so much easier now are pretty off base. How could I possibly understand what your life is like, and why should I compare my challenges to you. I was the third gay child in a family of five. So folks always say-oh it must have been easy for you to come out.
Bullshit. I fight my own demons and still do to this day.
What I think what some of the older guys are looking for is recognition of the work that their generation did to advance the lives of gay folks everywhere, and they deserves that recognition. But that doesn't mean that a young person has it easier. We all have our demons.

2. If you don't think you represent the gay community you are fooling yourself.
You represent the gay community if you hide in the closet, if you run down the street in leather or drag, really in everything you do. That doesn't mean that you have the responsibility to proselytize homosexuality. It is just fact...if you are gay than you are part of the gay community (even if in hiding) and you are a represntative.

So, don't run out and join every gay group, just try to be a good person whether masculine or feminine, out or not...whatever.

Thats my two cents...I wish this discussion hadn't turned ugly because it was a great question to pose by dorkzilla and I think he had good intentions.

 

[Kulindahr]

miatajeff, there are communities here where someone coming out in the 80s was asking for a closed-casket funeral -- but now it just means there are parts of town to avoid. there's no way that isn't having it easier. Sure, there are still emotional "demons", but at least they can now be faced more and more without fearing physical violence or death. Just a bit over two years ago, when I finally woke up and came out, in my area a guy was beaten to the point of a weeks-long ICU stay, for liking guys... and the cops listed it as assault over a "personal issue" -- no hate crime, no mention of the true reason, so how much easier it is, is a matter of location.
Coming out, being open and practically publicizing your identity, in such a situation, if you plan to "represent" the gay community, requires either superb martial arts skills (and maybe an Uzzi) or the willingness to have your bones broken till you nearly die, or take a knife in your ribs, or just disappear in the woods -- but 75 miles away, over the mountains, coming out in the same way is very much a "ho, hum", <yawn> sort of thing.
Separation in time, separation in space -- it's all the same; on one side of that separation things are easier.

 

[Pushover]

If anyone - gay or straight - has any problem with the way I'm living my life, the problem rests squarely on them, not me.

Lex

Which is exactly why I'm not posting in this thread. People should live their lives as they think they should be lived, not by the whims of others. Maybe that's being a little hypocritical (still in the closet, per say) but I think that regardless of sexuality, people should live the way they want to live, and not formed or molded by what society thinks they are or wants them to be.

 

[2243]

I am not Elvin. I can't explain how he arrived at his opinions; I can only speculate based on what I've read and my own interpretations of the issues being discussed. At face value, I'd have to say that Elvin was probably just defining his comfort level and his position on the I vs. II idea I was talking about -- something that I think everyone is entitled to, regardless of what that comfort level and position are. Yes, that includes the opinions of homophobic straight people because it would be judgmental and arrogant of ME to assume I know for certain which opinions hold the greatest degree of accuracy or legitimacy.

You seem rather perturbed at Elvin's opinions in particular. I think the society we live in is a lot easier to stomach if we first acknowledge and accept the fact that we're all individuals who arrive at our opinions based on our own individual experiences and influences. Those experiences and influences are not going to be the same for everyone. I think we have to realize that our own opinions and views are just as much a product of our lives as every other person's opinions are of theirs. Acceptance has to flow in every direction; I don't think you can force it upon anyone.

Well, that's because I was rather perturbed by Elvin's expressed comments/opinions; although, it was not purposely in particular. I realized, as I went back, that it was mostly Elvin expressing such comments/opinions in this thread.

Just to clarify again, I do believe all people are entitled to express their own opinions, even if they are (in my opinion) self-defined as condescending, overgeneralizing, and judgmental; additionally, in no way are my intentions to tell people that they can't express their comments/opinions because of an assumption that they are somehow inaccurate or illegitimate.

I do accept and understand that different people have different opinions. That's why I asked Elvin why he believed he could decide who was being normal or being them-selves and who was not, instead of telling him he should keep his expressed comments/opinions hidden from me and others because I don't understand them or that he is not normal or being true to him-self for expressing his comments/opinions. Your last paragraph regarding individuals and their opinions, the flow of acceptance and how it can't be forced, really is something Elvin should read.

 

[MikeHere]

I think there's something missed here. Everyone speaks of society as if it were something separate and apart from themselves. Society is made up of individuals. We are indivduals. We are society. Sometimes keeping that in mind allows you to see others individually and society as a whole with greater understanding.

 

[Kulindahr]

Which is exactly why I'm not posting in this thread. People should live their lives as they think they should be lived, not by the whims of others. Maybe that's being a little hypocritical (still in the closet, per say) but I think that regardless of sexuality, people should live the way they want to live, and not formed or molded by what society thinks they are or wants them to be.

Living that way is probably the best way to "represent" the gay community -- by showing that here is one member of it, anyway, who isn't afraid to be himself, whether that makes anyone else happy or not.
In a way it's like being a naturist. People ask me, "Why do you want people to see your body?", like only people who look like Greek gods should go naked. But I don't care if anyone sees me or not -- it isn't about being seen, it isn't about my body, it's about me enjoying being me. If someone wants to go to a bar where he can wear fluorescent body paint in geometric patterns that make it hard to tell all he really has on is a thing, and dance holding a pink parasol, if that's what makes him joyful in being himself, then that's the best representation of the gay community he can give -- not in the particular details of what it is he's doing, but in the deeper essence of being a fully alive person being himself.

And that's something gays have to offer the rest of society, IMHO. We've had to face, in ways most people never bother with, who we really are, what our identity is, and, whether or not we like it, come to terms with it and accept it and then learn to joyfully be who we are. The very fact that our identities are not what most of society approves of deep down gives us something to offer: an example of facing who we are and embracing that, instead of drifting along in conformity.

So whatever form your expression of your sexuality and everything else about you takes, the way to represent the gay community is to be that to the utmost, without doubts, without reservation, without guilt!

 

[Leidian]

No. I do NOT feel I need to make a point of showing pointing out that I'm the gay guy and try to break down stereotypes and all that. If someone says something totally ignorant I will correct them, but I don't feel the need to be the Gay Crusader. If that's your thing then more power to you, but I'm just not that kind of guy.