Dutch tolerance has its limits

[floating]

That's not what he is referring to (or at least I believe it isn't)

Icarus, thank your for the clarification. I was indeed having issue with the Herald tribune article suggesting that Hirsi Ali had to leave the Netherlands because of "radical Islam" problems, not with her critisism of Islamic faith. Once the dust settled down a bit she decided to start working for a American think tank foundation and she left the country. The Dutch government even paid for personal protection/guards until a year after she had left the country.

When I think the minister of justice wanted to stop the funding for her security a year after she left the country we got a new mini scandal where the Netherlands were portrayed as 'kicking her out the country and leaving her to her fate'.

 

[Apollo]

Hooray for the Labor Party. Tolerance must run both ways. If the Muslims seek tolerance then they must grant the same tolerance to others. Those who migrate to another country usually have specific reasons for soing so, either cultural or political. When they choose not to stay in their country and work for change, then they should be ready to assimilate into the culture of their new country. If their culture and opportunities are so great, then why did they leave?

I guess being able to celebrate and practice your own culture is a American thing? Who'd a thunk it.

 

[HenryReardon]

I absolutely have confidence that this will be contained in the U.S. Our society from bottom to top is not dominated by liberal politics alone, the conservative voice has its power, unlike in post world war 2 Europe. It is the "red neck" attitude that signals to the radicals that we won't take your shit and post 9/11 attitude was loud and clear. You do notice the brazen and open radical hate speech by Islamists in Europe, but in the U.S. such groups have to be "closeted." There are many other factors involved to this though...

One can hope that it will be contained in the US - yet they are pushing here and there, and gaining ground an inch at a time.


We seem to lack the political will to send 12 million illegal mexican peasants back across the border - one wonders if we have the will to contain radical islam.

 

[Apollo]

One can hope that it will be contained in the US - yet they are pushing here and there, and gaining ground an inch at a time.


We seem to lack the political will to send 12 million illegal mexican peasants back across the border - one wonders if we have the will to contain radical islam.

I think we do. Radical Islam and illegal aliens are two different types of people. Most people just don't care that illegal aliens are in the country, especially seeing how they support our infrastructure at the bottom level and really are just here to make a living and survive.

But radical islam on the other hand posses a threat to the safety of people, and one thing Americans don't like, it is feeling that their country and they themselves are threatened. If radical islam ever tried to be public in America, you would find citizens and police officers getting radical right along the way.

 

[wastingmymind]

CnAnPB: No one calls the South the "south east."

Kulindahr: The secular government is Turkey has a lot of positive points, but they were also contemplating the "no hijab" rule. Some of the younger intellectuals want to reconnect with their religion as a major part of their life. But the government feels that if they put a little bit of Islam into their government, it will put the country to the opposite side of the spectrum, which is not the best asusmption to make.

There were these Salem witch hunts, but I don't remember Catholics and Protestants killing each other or attacking Jews much....

You're absolutely
right!

All in all, you people scare me. This rhetoric of fear of the "radical Mahometans" taking away Europe could be spun around into oppressing them.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Well, then, in practice, Islam is both peace and hate.
It's not monolithic. At the moment, a majority of Muslims would be happy in a secular state like Turkey.

But is Christianity and Judaism a monolith? Is it all peace? Should I have to point out things in both the old and new testament that is less than tolerant, and for modern day standards, quite hateful? Lets not get carried away in our own hatred for Islam and Muslims.

 

[HenryReardon]

CnAnPB:

[
All in all, you people scare me. This rhetoric of fear of the "radical Mahometans" taking away Europe could be spun around into oppressing them.

Do a little in-depth research as follows:

Look at all the places in the world where their is ongoing armed conflict and/or violence.

Find out how many such hot spots there are.
Add up how many of those hot spots involve the wonderful peaceful religion of Islam.

The results of that research should be enough to open your eyes and maybe scare you, just a little.

 

[glo-unit]

I absolutely have confidence that this will be contained in the U.S. Our society from bottom to top is not dominated by liberal politics alone, the conservative voice has its power, unlike in post world war 2 Europe. It is the "red neck" attitude that signals to the radicals that we won't take your shit and post 9/11 attitude was loud and clear. You do notice the brazen and open radical hate speech by Islamists in Europe, but in the U.S. such groups have to be "closeted." There are many other factors involved to this though...

I don't think US politics will keep Radical Muslims down so much as how out culture works. Acclimation is a big part of the US and becoming more like other Americans is something that is rewarded. While I'm Hispanic my family probably as more in common with a typical anglo family than with a typical Mexican one. I picture similar things happening with many illegal immigrants and even with Muslims any attempt to take over the US will be undone by their grandchildren's liking of being spoiled american's.

I have no idea Europe is but similar inclinations of what will happen. Radical Muslims in Europe want to take it but the first generation born and raised in Europe will be very different and by the 2nd generation I imagine any will to want to change Europe will be very minor compared to the overall Muslim population.

PS sorry if this doesn't make any sense I'm in a hurry.

 

[wastingmymind]

My reply was about religious intolerance and extreme radicalism in the U.S. NOT in 16th century Europe which always loved to use Christianity for Imperial/Colonial expansion and warfare for power.

Besides what are you trying to say, "look we Christians were like that 500 years ago and worse, so let the Muslim Extremism ride this out by affecting our way of life"?

Religious radicalism in the US? By which group? The US or individual Americans spread their own strands of Protestant Christianity since the Spanish American War and that still goes on.

Extremism happens on both sides. Christians or individuals who happen to be Christian are capable of religiously motivated violence. It still happens. And if it was prevalent in Europe we're still capable of that today.

The only thing that worries me about the posts in this thread is that there is no caveat that not all Muslims are extreme.

 

[JayHawk]

Acts of religious violence during the time of the Foundation of America were almost non-existent. America was not in the mood for it. To be sure, historians of American religion might cite aspects of religious culture which defined the revolutionary, separatist, often-low-church colonists from their imperialist, monarchist, loyalist, often-high-church opponents.
In subsequent decades religious violence sometimes stood out. The 1840's were a hard time to be Catholic in the States. The other topic of religious violence that Historians will definitely mention involves the Mormons, initially as sufferers and later, on at least one occasion, as inflictors. Over the generations America has seen religious violence on rare occasions, mostly on a person-to-person or small-group basis. Sometimes within fairly isolated communities. Sometimes in the odd-ball suburb or neighborhood. Probably every denomination has its own little stories.

But this is all to say that America has had far less religious violence in its history than Europe has had.

To be sure, if you are a Native American (and hence of a very distinct religious tradition) you might rightfully object that America has plenty of ultra-violent religious history to atone for.

To be sure American Indians have a lot to be compensated for by the very fact that we took our land and feel the need to disregard the past and the thinking of the time and just feel sorry for our actions.

The Mormon were chased from Missouri to Utah. A few were killed in the migration.

I am sure there are plenty of religions that were unfairly prosecuted in Americas past. I don't seem to recall any religious sects that constantly not only chanted about overthrowing those in power in this melting pot but acted on it getting a pass by the rest of America. SO melting pot, its ok, dont worry about it is bullshit.

We all SHOULD have the right to coexist however we do not have the right to do so at other citizens expense. They should crush the zealots as criminals and not identify them as Muslims. Let the Muslim community try to defend their criminals and leave the folks who wish to peacefully coexist in the society they chose to join. I never see these defenders arguing that whites are persecuted because they are supremest. Why? because it is ignorant as is the belief system of hate.
So then why defend a muslim belief in hate? ( and no I do not mean all Muslims for those of you who only read a few words then set your hair on fire) I refer to the Muslims that would kill a man because he made a cartoon.

To think a people would expect a pass when they murder other folks for expressing their opinion because it offended them is absolute madness. To think it is anything other than a direct attack on what make a western democracy free is foolish.

 

[SoulSearcher]

Ohh come on man, tell me when was the last time a Rav has condemned a women to death for violating some modesty law and when was the last time if ever did any Jewish communities practice "honor killing" stoning, beheading that still goes on in many Muslim countries and cultures. Will Shlomo Omar ever "order" his followers to start executing gays at Tel Aviv Pride, or would anyone in your own community be capable of stoning or killing you because of their religion? My parents and community shuns homosexuality, but one thing for sure, I don't have to fear "honor killings" from anyone in my community or family.

The difference is that in both Judaism and Christianity there have been numerous evolutions in cultural ethics, and understanding of punishment, but in Muslim countries--not all--the Koran is still being taken literally and practiced literally when it was first written because the cultural practices themselves especially in Arab nations predate the Koran itself so they both fit like a hand and a glove with not much cultural changes.

The point here is not about "all religions are equally bad or have violent texts" but the fact that in 2008 there is 1 religion that not only practices some draconian religious customs, but the growing elements want to impose that on our way of life.
And the question "how do we deal with it" is not about racism, hate, or intolerance, but out of concern for our safety, lives and freedom to live how we want.

I agree with much of what you say. I just think it is helpful to look at the context under which these societies have been evolving as of late. After brutal colonisation by the glorious Christian powers of Europe (the same ones from the days of the Crusades), each one of these states were then ruled by Western and American propped dictators of one form or another. Extremism doesn't grow in a vacuum. The US needs to do some self-reflection in its own deeds, vis-a-vis dictators, overthrowing democratically elected governments, etc. The reason why more and more Muslims are turning towards extremist views is because the world ignores the fact that the tyranical rulers of the Muslim countries are all allies with the "leaders of the free world".

 

[SoulSearcher]

Everything about that woman is fake. Her real name isn't even Ayaan Hirshi Ali.

Give her some slack, poor thing needed some asylum and all the goodies that come with that.

 

[Kulindahr]

I agree with much of what you say. I just think it is helpful to look at the context under which these societies have been evolving as of late. After brutal colonisation by the glorious Christian powers of Europe (the same ones from the days of the Crusades), each one of these states were then ruled by Western and American propped dictators of one form or another. Extremism doesn't grow in a vacuum. The US needs to do some self-reflection in its own deeds, vis-a-vis dictators, overthrowing democratically elected governments, etc. The reason why more and more Muslims are turning towards extremist views is because the world ignores the fact that the tyranical rulers of the Muslim countries are all allies with the "leaders of the free world".

Empires frequently are if not the creators, then the instigators of their own nemeses. It's a sort of "you reap what you sow" effect. By supporting dictators we've helped keep dictatorships in existence, by an example of approval.