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East Germans say Life Was Better under Communism

Harke the Boeotarch

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Communism offers complete security of livelyhood.

In contrast, capitalism heavily depends on speculation and competition which introduce many risks to the livelihoods of citizens, especially in an economy which is neither huge nor very flexible.
 
So, let them vote back in a communist government. Hell, we'll give them our left wing screwballs, if they're short!
 
Yeah, life under East German Communism must have been better. Friendships were better. You always had your favorite Stasi (secret police) agent listening in on your telephone conversations. The huge lines at the stores allowed you to catch up on all the neighborhood gossip. Female athletes were able to become men through the secret use of steroids. Yeah, bring back the Berlin Wall and the good ol' days!

Capitalism and democracy are far from perfect, but given the choice between the others, I will take both of them.
 
Stalinist chic...equality of misery,not opportunity.At least they can criticize their capitalist West German masters without worrying about a prison sentence,or disappearance.As unfair as capitalism is at times,anyone seeking a large scale worker's paradise is only searching for fool's gold.
 
Stalinist chic...equality of misery,not opportunity.At least they can criticize their capitalist West German masters without worrying about a prison sentence,or disappearance.As unfair as capitalism is at times,anyone seeking a large scale worker's paradise is only searching for fool's gold.

And these people never lived under communism. They lived under some bastardized form of dictatorial socialism.
 
And these people never lived under communism. They lived under some bastardized form of dictatorial socialism.
So true.That's why I said "fool's gold"....communism is impractical on a large scale and the power of the state will be used to maintain itself any way it can.the equality of mediocrity,the security of the imprisonment of the heart and soul.....but everyone wants to be blissfully unaware.
 
It's been a long time since I've posted here in CE&P, but it feels like a good topic to get involved in.

Before I get started, to give some perspective, I would like to state that my comments are coming as a holder of a B.A. in Political Studies with a minor in Philosophy, as such, I'd like to think I'm sort of qualified to talk about this kind of thing.

Now, as such, let's get to the root of what I want to say.

All the problems we saw in Stalinist Russia, and the General Secretaries that came after him, were not truly communist. The basis of a communist system is a system that abolishes any thing that elevates one person over another, be that in the form of wealth or power.

According to the communist ideals described my Marx, communism is to evolve to the point where the need for government disappears and the state simply is run by all the people; much like an ancient direct democracy, only more inclusive since it would allow women and non-land owning men to have a say.

Effectively, this is not what we saw in the former USSR. Much like some leaders in democracies, the Soviets quickly saw the chance to keep power for themselves and improve their own lives. When this happened, the Soviet Union was no longer communist.

Actually, as most people will tell you, Stalin effectively created his own ideological political viewpoint, which is why Stalinism is generally a definition for his type of rule. It is also why you see different forms of Communist Parties developed in Western Democracies. In Canada, we have both the Communist Part of Canada and the Marxist-Leninist Party; two fundamental communist parties with different beliefs and systems.

So, to rant and rave against communist is a fallacy since there are multiple forms of it.

In reality, Marxist Communism has never fully been practiced. We've never seen the dissolution of the class system, or the removal of the government, but rather we've just seen distorted forms of communism based on some of Marx's arguments, while adding their own personal opinions and beliefs into the system.

Now, fully, I can't begin to understand why some people are so generally opposed to any system that helps ensure people within a society are looked after. To this extent, communism is a bastion of hope for the downtrodden in that it guarantees fundamental protection to their life by providing things like health care or housing or what ever they need.

But, much like any political system, communism was distorted by those who installed it and twisted it into becoming what it was: a system rife with paranoid leaders who were more concerned with holding power than working towards the common good of the people.

Democracy has the same problem, but we have elections to fix it: All political leaders will eventually move away from their platforms and beliefs in the need to maintain power and control over the government. While we can vote these politicians out of office, their successors are generally doomed to suffer the same fate.

As for East Germans saying life was better under the communist system...That is much like us saying democracy is a better system because we have lived under it for so long.

If we suddenly changed into say, a Monarchy, there would be complaints of how life was better under our former democracy. In Canada, we do sort of have a monarchy given that the Queen is still our head of state, but we expect certain powers to fall within the government. As such, we would all likely question the reason of one person being able to make all the decisions.

Now, put the shoe on the other foot: Going from a system where one person effectively controlled everything, to a system where power is separated between many. A system that sees politicians attempting to secure their own goals and get re-elected, as opposed to a single person who does not need to face re-election.

In these regards, the East Germans may feel that they have been betrayed by their democratic government. That their elected officials have not followed through on their promises, or that they are truly only concerned with their re-election above all else.

Effectively, the East Germans may simply be saying that things were more efficient when the communists were in power, given that they were able to make unpopular decisions and tough decisions without having to fear for their job.

In addition to the political aspect, the East Germans according to the article have said that they did not experience homeless and other problems that come from a system where people are expected to make their own way in the world, without help from a government system, basically the opposite of the communist system they had in the past.

All I can truly say is, in closing, that the East Germans are simply presenting a fact that democracy and capitalism have problems that they did not experience under an old political regime.

Not to say that communism was not without it problems, at least the form practiced by the USSR, but we must remember what I stated in the beginning of this post: That true communism has never existed in reality, we've only seen bastardized forms of it.

Until we've seen a country adopt a truly communism system, I don't think we can condemn the entire system as a whole. We can condemn the systems that we tried and failed, but we must recognize, that there are different forms of communism, much in the same way that there are different forms of democracy.
 
Reaper. Very well spoken or written rather. I truly believe that in only a utopia would a communist system work. After all people will always be people and that means greed and pride will always trump equality in the rest of humanity.

What the east Germans need to embrace is the limited use of govt intervention where the capitalist system lets the unfortunate fall through the cracks. That system has to flex and relax based on need.
 
Not to say that communism was not without it problems, at least the form practiced by the USSR, but we must remember what I stated in the beginning of this post: That true communism has never existed in reality, we've only seen bastardized forms of it.

If I got a ruble for every time I've heard this, I'd still be poor (but I'd have a lot of rubles).

The difference between Democracy/Capitalism and Communism is that the former has evolved through all kinds of tribulations and has been adapted every time, while the latter depends on deterministic theories from the nineteenth century.

Usually, when Democracy goes astray, it's relatively easy to get things running again by making changes.
Communism is presented as a perfect and complete form of government. If something goes wrong, it''s the fault of the people who implement it.

I don't buy this. For me Communism is the governments that happened because of the ideology, not some unattainable utopian vision that never worked on the scale of nations.
 
Reaper, very well said. But the former East Germans can do something about their current system of government, that they couldn't before. They can simply leave and go somewhere more to their liking.

That's a big difference.
 
Reaper, very well said. But the former East Germans can do something about their current system of government, that they couldn't before. They can simply leave and go somewhere more to their liking.

That's a big difference.

I had promised myself that I would refrain from a rebuttal, but here we are.

I would like to touch on two points, the quote above and a comment from Harke The Boeotarch. I'll start with the non-quoted one.

Harke, you said that when democracy goes astray it is relatively easy to get things running again by making changes. I would suggest that this isn't always the case. Not to belabour a point, but does 1932 Germany ring any bells? Democracy is just as corruptible a system as communism, as shown by example.

Granted, most people would say a modern democracy would not be complancent with the facist style of racist government implimented under a democratically elected regime, as they were when a certain man was elected leader, but look at some conditions:

Facist Germans often blamed their problems on foreigners and those who were different from them; they also faced major economic problems at the time that was accompanied by hyperinflation.

Now look at today: The economy is always on a day-by-day basis, and there are some people in a number of countries with the same answer: Illegal immigrants are behind this, or this group of people or that group of people; and there are those who believe these claims.

I'm not saying we're seeing a rise of facism in Nazi style in Western Democracies, but what I am saying is that under the right circumstances it becomes impossible to fix ANY government system, regardless of it being a democracy or a dictatorship.

Furthermore, democracies are inherently harder to fix. During World War II, Canada suspended elections in regards ro the event happening around the world. When the war was over, the government allowed elections to take place again, but there was always the possibility that they could not have.

Democracies allow for loopholes and advantageous politicians, regardless of belief, will always find ways to exploit these loopholes. As such, no political system is easly fixed as the power structure will always allow the government to find ways to keep the people as isolated from power as they can be without losing their grip on power.

I think I've addressed that point well enough to move on to the next one, the one I've quoted.

jackoroe, I have to say, it was your comment that convinced me to reply to this thread again.

I'm not sure what world view your statement comes from, but it is one that is incomprehensible to me. The idea that if someone doesn't like the system and state they're in, they should simply leave and find a place more suitable.

The fact of the matter is, to use your own point against you, is that if these people have the right to move to another state, then they also have the right to say things were better in the past. Just because a person disagrees with the system now, doesn't mean they should have to flee their country to a place that already has those ideals.

Its their right as a citizen to attempt to make those changes within their country provided it follows along a legal course.

Of course, I'm also an advocate of the idea that any changes to a nation should reflect the best interest of all citizens. Most would argue a return to communism would not be in this interest, some would.

But I do think it is perhaps a tad, and excuse the word, arrogant to say that if they don't like it, they can get out. If you're going to advocate the benefits of democracy, you need to advocate them all and not just pick and choose.
 
Harke, you said that when democracy goes astray it is relatively easy to get things running again by making changes. I would suggest that this isn't always the case. Not to belabour a point, but does 1932 Germany ring any bells? Democracy is just as corruptible a system as communism, as shown by example.

I disagree.

In practice, Democracy isn't as inherently utterly self-destructive as the system we usually call Communism, because it is far more flexible and far less ambitious.
 
Reaper, I would respectfully disagree with you. Freedom is always better. Being free is a natural state of man. My example of being free to leave an oppressive society, makes the point that anybody who claims it used to be "better" is simply wrong.

If East Germany was such a swell place to live, they wouldn't have needed a wall. Hundreds, if not thousands would not have died trying to escape such a workers utopia. The fact is, the communists needed to keep people locked in lest they rule a vacant land.

Today, people are free to leave and go wherever they want. Yet not many do. Today, they are free to put whomever they want into positions of power. And yet they yearn for the old days?

If the new Germany is such an awful place, because of democracy, then they can change it back to a dictatorial communist state, by virtue of that democracy. Yet, they do not.

They now have the power to make whatever they like of their lives. They didn't before.
 
I disagree.

In practice, Democracy isn't as inherently utterly self-destructive as the system we usually call Communism, because it is far more flexible and far less ambitious.

Democracy in any country is fragile, in the USA too. Someone (whose name I can't remember) once said "Democracy is like taking a bath, one has to do it every day." The Nazi's came to power through the ballot box. Chile had a stable, parliamentary democracy for (if memory serves me right) 100 years before Pinochet ushered in decades of a murderous, capitalist dictatorship. France in the late 1950s or early 1960s was on the verge of a coupe by its generals despite a long, democratic tradition. Indeed, the much of the philosophical basis of modern democracy comes from the philosophers of the French Enlightenment.

In our own country in the last century, we saw our government under FDR intern tens of thousands of citizens of Japanese ancestry without due process or any evidence of criminal acts, we've had two administrations in my life time, Nixon and "W" Bush, who committed acts that subverted the constitution.

I fear that we have become a country of ill-informed, TV and computer game addled nincompoops. We have a msm that is useless when it comes to informing the public about the issues of the day. We're far more interested in shopping and celebrity gossip than in what is happening in our government. Therein lies the seeds of the destruction of our democracy. I think all of us, left or right, ought to recognize this problem.
 
I met a young couple from East Germany in the summer of 1992. They were staying in the same Bed and Breakfast in Southeast England that we were.

They spoke passable English, and we had long conversations over breakfast.

They were so amazed and delighted that they were able to actually travel to another country - something they had never dreamed would happen in their lifetimes.

I suspect that, even today, they would agree that even if there was a price to be paid for that new found freedom, it was worth it.
 
Henry, I think something must have gone wrong in the translation. They were always able to travel anywhere in the Eastern Bloc, and the Soviet Union was a mighty large country.

Now you're being disingenuous.

Travel within the eastern bloc in no way compares to being allowed to cross the iron curtain and visit western Europe or the UK.
 
So true.That's why I said "fool's gold"....communism is impractical on a large scale and the power of the state will be used to maintain itself any way it can.the equality of mediocrity,the security of the imprisonment of the heart and soul.....but everyone wants to be blissfully unaware.

True communism is impractical for any community sufficiently large than not everyone is on a first-name basis.

Henry, I think something must have gone wrong in the translation. They were always able to travel anywhere in the Eastern Bloc, and the Soviet Union was a mighty large country.

Travel -- perhaps....
but never freely.

First, they had to have a reason to travel. If that got accepted, then they would get an approved route. During their trip, they would have been asked numerous times, "Papers, please", by internal security police checking to be sure they were authorized to be where they were.

That doesn't add up to being free to travel.
 
what's the definition of "better"

Very often I have encountered Russian car service drivers who have said something similar re: life in soviet union

that the switch to capitalism is difficult - that the mafia and others - take advantage of the new relaxed system - that life is more difficult now

makes u wonder if certain people who have had one system for so long find it difficult to change
 
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