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On-Topic Edward Snowden: NSA Whistleblower Revealed, Interview

Lostlover said:
all the "supporters" he has that offered him their well wishes, like [INSERT NEARLY ANY SUPPORTER'S NAME HERE], while using Google, Twitter, Microsoft, Apple and Yahoo! for EVERYTHING in their lives.
Click to expand...

I actually don't think Twitter is on the list, but that Facebook is. I'm not sure I remember this correctly.

Lostlover said:
So, why are you continuing to use one of these companies' services? That company is just as "guilty" as NSA in all of this.
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It would be rather difficult, if not impossible, to refuse ever to use any company who supplied information, whether willingly or forced via court order. I think that we are only seeing the "short list" - mentioning only the companies at the top of the food chain. Who's to say that if we instead used a Trac-Fone as our only phone carrier, and used Dogpile as our chosen search engine, and used American Express instead of Master Card [are they on the list?], that we could avoid the surveillance and storage of logs and all content?

How many ISP's may be part of the massive dragnet? I have a discount card which I use at Kroger supermarkets (and, which also covers a number of smaller independents and regional chains) - is THAT information being stored? Does anybody know?

And, as above, I think that Twitter was conspicuously absent from the list we commonly see, but I don't trust that AT ALL.

I'm not convinced that it is possible to keep oneself "off the grid" of surveillance unless one lives their life as though it's still 1910.

Jack Springer said:
It makes you ask another question -- does Obama see everyday Americans as the enemy?
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Obama...merely another cog in a continuing series. When a government has become officiall9y fascist, the "People" are ALWAYS the enemy, and Partisan labels are little more than window dressing.
 
frankfrank said:
I have a discount card which I use at Kroger supermarkets (and, which also covers a number of smaller independents and regional chains) - is THAT information being stored? Does anybody know?
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Don't know if Kroger's information is routinely being monitored by the NSA; but it is, of course, available to them by subpoena (by the FISA court or any other court).

When I worked for the coroner's office, we once identified a dead body by the Kroger card on his key ring.
 
opinterph said:
So people concerned about global climate change should stop using gasoline, tires, natural gas, home heating oil, all forms of plastic, candles, and of course any road that is surfaced with asphalt?


Click to expand...

No. People concerned with global warming can do something. Corny, admittedly, hasn't done squat besides talk.

It takes a few keystrokes to find a non-Google, non-Bing, and non-Yahoo! search engine. Pressing a few more keys on the keyboard is even too much for these armchair critics.

It's called being sincere. And, usually, sincere people match their words with their actions.

And, by the way, that's good of you to ignore the rest of the post and do exactly what I did when Corny said I was making "ad hominem attacks" in my talks with Kallopsis. I wonder what he thinks of you doing the same thing. Splitting hairs between whether or not Google supplying the government with user data is court ordered or not is pussy bullshit that one uses to weasel out of talking the talk and walking the walk because the result is still the same: the government still gets user data with or without that supposed court order.
 
palbert said:
Edward Snowden has told the South China Morning Post that the US has been hacking Hong Kong Chinese electronic activity since 2009.



http://news.yahoo.com/edward-snowden-says-nsa-snooping-china-since-2009-151848288.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/edward-snowden-us-extradition-fight

(*starts rereading James Clavell's Noble House*)
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So now that he's sharing his information with China, he's involved in espionage. This guy is a traitor plain and simple. Motivation doesn't matter.

Jack Springer said:
Makes you ask the question .... who do they want to spy on? Targeting spying on enemies is ok with me -- but spying on every American citizen --- why?

It makes you ask another question -- does Obama see everyday Americans as the enemy?
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Again, where is any evidence at all that anyone is spying on Americans? Any evidence. Any at all. You're making an assumption that just because they have enlisted the assistance of American companies that they're spying on Americans.
 
Lostlover said:
So...your answer is to continue using Google, and to have Google send data to the government about your internet usage, right after you said you support a guy who leaked information about Google sharing this data in order to prevent it from happening in the future?

Isn't that not a textbook circular argument?
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I reject your continued attempt to highjack the thread, but I'm going to answer this idiocy because of the degree of ignorance it involves.

It's almost impossible to visit a web page without Google knowing it and recording that information, so it doesn't matter if someone uses google or not. The only way to not let Google know what you're doing is to stop using the internet.
 
Fake, phony outrage.

The UK and Germany makes more requests for user information, proportionally, than the US. The UK has one-fifth of our population and half of our requests for information for online user activity. And, UK posters, your government helped the NSA spy on us. If this was a real news story, I guess I would shake my head, but I find it worth talking about only to point out the hypocrisies.

k-bigpic.gif


Fake, phony outrage on a fake, phony issue and not a peep from these posters whose government willingly, in a clandestine fashion, assisted the NSA to spy on us. To top it off, most Americans don't care about this issue. I'd also say that some of the "supporters" here don't care either. They've yet to say what they've done, besides typing a good game, to support their "hero."

It makes no sense to say you support someone who is against the government spying while giving more data to the government so they can continue to spy.

Actions ain't matching the words. I smell bullshit.

http://gizmodo.com/the-top-10-countries-who-request-data-from-tech-compani-513056340
 
Lostlover said:
No. People concerned with global warming can do something. Corny, admittedly, hasn't done squat besides talk.

It takes a few keystrokes to find a non-Google, non-Bing, and non-Yahoo! search engine. Pressing a few more keys on the keyboard is even too much for these armchair critics.
Click to expand...

I don't even know how I should put it without using some belittling or insulting words. You don't know what I do and what I don't do. How could you? You're just assuming something in your mind.

Oh .. and about those reading skills. I already stated above what I do. And what I have been doing for many years. I'm a member of the CCC - if that tells you anything. But you even might have known this before if you'd poke your head into the tech forum.


[edit]
Dear lord .. you are now comparing individual court orders with a permanent surveilliance system. Maybe you should actually know what you're talking about before diving head over heels into an argument.

Also nobody ever said that other countries/organizations/means of surveilliance are any better. That's even more offtopic here.
 
Corny said:
Oh and by the way:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/nsa-surveillance-guardian-poll-oversight

Probably not what fox news tells you though :lol:
Click to expand...

So, now I listen to Fox News? Lies only make your posts weaker. I actually found my polls from CNN. Most Americans don't care.

Germany is spying on its citizens way more than the US.

What are you going to do? More [STRIKE]talking[/STRIKE] typing? (That's the extent of your activism it seems.)

It seems like you have a bigger problem on your hands than we do?
 
Corny said:
I don't even know how I should put it without using some belittling or insulting words. You don't know what I do and what I don't do. How could you? You're just assuming something in your mind.

Oh .. and about those reading skills. I already stated above what I do. And what I have been doing for many years. I'm a member of the CCC - if that tells you anything. But you even might have known this before if you'd poke your head into the tech forum.


[edit]
Dear lord .. you are now comparing individual court orders with a permanent surveilliance system. Maybe you should actually know what you're talking about before diving head over heels into an argument.

Also nobody ever said that other countries/organizations/means of surveilliance are any better. That's even more offtopic here.
Click to expand...

No. No. Actually I did NOT compare individual court orders with a permanent surveillance system. Check my comment to Opinterph. I said that whether it was a court order or a permanent surveillance system, the result is the same: the users' data is still being given to the government.

Opinterph went off-topic when he brought up global warming, but I think that example shows you how much talk you are. Going green in American is expensive, timely, and inconvenient. You might have to buy an expensive hybrid car, coordinate your schedules to carpool with coworkers or retrofit your home with solar panels, energy efficient light bulbs or window panes, but... people still do these things. You can't inconvenience yourself to find an alternative search engine that isn't reporting users' data to the government. All it takes is a few keystrokes to find a non-Google, non-Yahoo!, and non-Bing search engine that won't send your personal data to your government (and Germany is way more active in spying on its people than America). You literally don't even want to lift a finger to support your "hero" and his cause.

log-in-eye.jpg

​
I guess you can call me a Snowden supporter, because I, like you, haven't done diddly squat.

You're having to refrain from cursing me out because you have no point, but a hell of an agenda. When Jack Springer dared to ask of your government what you've supported Snowden in (condemning the US government's secrecy), you a) refused to answer, b) said he lost the argument just for asking the question (wow at this one), c) requested that we go back on-topic (never left the topic since government surveillance is on-topic even thought it's not in the thread's subject line --> :rolleyes: ), and d) asked that someone come in the clean up the posts that dared to question you.

Yep. You sound like someone with a winning argument. I'm not surprised at all that you want to curse me out.
 
Lostlover said:
I guess you can call me a Snowden supporter, because I, like you, haven't done diddly squat.
Click to expand...

Besides continuing to try to hijack the thread, you demonstrate that it's a darned good thing you're not in charge of anything important to the rest of us. You have no mature sense of restraint in action, but show all the signs of being like Westboro Baptist in operating on a knee-jerk reaction level -- no thought, no planning, just dive in, and do what comes to mind whether it has to do with the issue or not.

This thread is not "Lostlover Demands Action by Snowden Supporters", it's a place to offer thoughts on his actions to date. Since you aren't shedding any light on his actions one way or another, you're just cluttering space and providing exactly the sort of distraction that keeps people from actually looking at the issues.

If you want a thread where you can pass judgment on everyone for your suppositions about what they have or haven't done, start one, and let those of us who are interested in this one make use of it.
 
frankfrank said:
It would be rather difficult, if not impossible, to refuse ever to use any company who supplied information, whether willingly or forced via court order. I think that we are only seeing the "short list" - mentioning only the companies at the top of the food chain. Who's to say that if we instead used a Trac-Fone as our only phone carrier, and used Dogpile as our chosen search engine, and used American Express instead of Master Card [are they on the list?], that we could avoid the surveillance and storage of logs and all content?

How many ISP's may be part of the massive dragnet? I have a discount card which I use at Kroger supermarkets (and, which also covers a number of smaller independents and regional chains) - is THAT information being stored? Does anybody know?
Click to expand...

I could have sworn that I saw a news story and it having Twitter's bird logo along with Apple's and Microsoft's. A Google News check only finds articles concerning Sen. Murkowski answering an NSA question via Twitter.

I'm sure too that we haven't seen the entire list. This doesn't bother me. People can't have 100% privacy with 100%, stellar anti-terrorism efforts by the government. There's a balance that I'm willing to accept.
 
THE US government has made requests of Twitter; others not so much.

BTW, the NSA's story that it has thwarted bunches of attacks isn't going over so well:
"We have not yet seen any evidence showing that the NSA's dragnet collection of Americans' phone records has produced any uniquely valuable intelligence," [ranking senators] said in a statement released on Thursday ahead of a widely anticipated briefing for US senators about the National Security Agency's activities.
Click to expand...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/senators-challenge-nsa-surveillance-terrorism
 
LL you are running in circles. I don't pick up any of your or Jack's "arguments" because they are not relevant here. And no, you still can't compare this. The data from your graphic is graphic is from data requested from companies that have been collecting this anyway. Like the server logs on JUB. There is no law that makes a website owner keep logs. They do it for various reasons. And governments can request that data. That doesn't mean that they get it. That depends on the other company. Most companies, even google (and iirc, lately facebook as well) requite a court order though. And then they will get data.
The "system" here is like investigations in a crime scene. Someone did something. The state investigates.

You should see the difference by now. That means, if you actually read anything about what the NSA actually did.


I am using an ISP by the way, who by contract, does not collect any more data than needed for billing. And you kinda ignored how I already said, twice (I know .. reading is hard ..) that I basically don't use any of those companies services. So after your "logic" I must be doing a lot.

But no, I'm actually not doing anything. Not usign the companies won't help Snowden a bit. Not using the companies will not support the guy or his cause at all. It's not the companies who were doing something wrong.

By the way, you really might want to look up what the CCC does/is. I'm a member since 2001.

So yeah, I do something. Social concepts and ethics in regards to our all use of technology, as well as freedom of information are a big thing for me (again, something that more than just a few long time jubbers have noticed).

But you know what? Even that doesn't supports the guy, at all. And that's precisely why it is still offtopic.


Maybe I should join a few threads about the marathon bomber and start discussing that it's allright, since more people die from gun wielding toddlers? Right. That's basically as logical as your lonesome tirade here, crapping all over a thread and silencing actual discussion.
 
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