Eire 1984 [Ireland's New Hate Crime Law]

[Latimer]

The Irish government is proposing a new hate crimes law that only vaguely defines "hate" and will allow fines and prison terms for speech and possession of printed material:

Tough New Hate Crime Law Has Irish Fearful Their Luck's Running Out on Free Speech

By S.A. McCarthy, RealClearInvestigationsMay 24, 2023 LIMERICK, Ireland -- Ireland is on the verge of passing the most aggressive hate crime law in the European Union, which includes the first legal p

www.realclearinvestigations.com

I thought the following was only the sort of thing that happened in Canada, but read this:

"Also last year, schoolteacher Enoch Burke was jailed after refusing to call a student by they/them pronouns, citing his Christian faith. He was held in contempt of court and was placed in solitary confinement in Dublin’s Mountjoy Prison, where he was held for almost four months. Just days ago, Ireland’s High Court ruled that Burke’s employer was right to suspend him for upholding his Christian beliefs."

 

[Essex Boy]

Oh what a circus, oh what a show. My first thought was, who's making money out of it?

In 2015, the Emerald Isle legalized gay marriage, just two years after the progressive vanguard of France did the same. That same year, Ireland was ranked among the top 10 most LGBT-friendly nations in the world

Ireland has no beaches to speak of and it's pissing down most of the time, so they need to attract tourists to Dublin for the Guinness, the literary associations and that God awful diddly-eye-de-dye music. It used to be the pink pound everyone wanted to get their mitts on, now the market has expanded and it's the rainbow euro they're wooing. Plus North American people called McCarthy desperate to get in touch with their Oirish roots.

 

[rareboy]

The Irish government is proposing a new hate crimes law that only vaguely defines "hate" and will allow fines and prison terms for speech and possession of printed material:

Tough New Hate Crime Law Has Irish Fearful Their Luck's Running Out on Free Speech

By S.A. McCarthy, RealClearInvestigationsMay 24, 2023 LIMERICK, Ireland -- Ireland is on the verge of passing the most aggressive hate crime law in the European Union, which includes the first legal p

www.realclearinvestigations.com

I thought the following was only the sort of thing that happened in Canada, but read this:

"Also last year, schoolteacher Enoch Burke was jailed after refusing to call a student by they/them pronouns, citing his Christian faith. He was held in contempt of court and was placed in solitary confinement in Dublin’s Mountjoy Prison, where he was held for almost four months. Just days ago, Ireland’s High Court ruled that Burke’s employer was right to suspend him for upholding his Christian beliefs."

So how do pronouns relate to Christian faith?

I suspect that the reason his ass got thrown into jail was that there was nothing about his 'Christian' faith that justified not calling a student by their preferred pronouns.

He got thrown into jail for contempt of court.

Another whiny transphobe. Glad he lost his job.

 

[Latimer]

@ Essex Boy. I love visiting Ireland--I was there just about this time last year, only my second visit. On my first visit five years previously, I fell in love with the place and the people I met--and said to my partner I wish I had discovered what a great place it was earlier. It never occurs to me to visit a place for the beaches (too much of my life in Southern California has already been spent at beaches and in the water), but one of the things I like best about Ireland is that it's so green, and I can't get enough of the gentle rain and the mist. My last visit was during the big European heat wave. There was almost no rain--a disappointment--and it was 21 degrees, which I regard as an ideal temperature, but which a few locals mentioned to me they found too hot. You have little idea how depressing it is to fly back into Los Angeles--which looks so brown from the air--from the air after a visit to the British Isles.

 

[Latimer]

So how do pronouns relate to Christian faith?

I suspect that the reason his ass got thrown into jail was that there was nothing about his 'Christian' faith that justified not calling a student by their preferred pronouns.

He got thrown into jail for contempt of court.

Another whiny transphobe. Glad he lost his job.

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Matthew 7: 15-20

 

[Latimer]

I assume his argument was that, as God had created two sexes, man and woman, that it was against his religious belief to address a man as a woman and vice-versa. Men and women can only cosmetically change sex, not their actual sex. It is only a courtesy to call them by a pronoun they prefer. In any case, who knows the particular situation here. Just because a girl decides she wants to be called a boy or vice-versa should not obligate a teacher to do so. For all we know the student has now decided he or she wants to revert to what he or she was previously. As you may have heard, there's a rash of disturbed girls professing to be the opposite sex. Hysteria. Ten years ago it was bulimia. This year it's transgenderism.

 

[rareboy]

I assume his argument was that, as God had created two sexes, man and woman, that it was against his religious belief to address a man as a woman and vice-versa. Men and women can only cosmetically change sex, not their actual sex. It is only a courtesy to call them by a pronoun they prefer. In any case, who knows the particular situation here. Just because a girl decides she wants to be called a boy or vice-versa should not obligate a teacher to do so. For all we know the student has now decided he or she wants to revert to what he or she was previously. As you may have heard, there's a rash of disturbed girls professing to be the opposite sex. Hysteria. Ten years ago it was bulimia. This year it's transgenderism.

This has nothing to do with Christ or His teachings.

Christ had nothing whatsoever to say about pronouns.

And what does your meandering rant about hysterical girls have to do with the topic. No. we haven't heard that there is a rash of disturbed girls using this like bulimia...which I would note was not a fad and still very much exists as a clinical psychological issue for too many teenage girls and boys.

[Text: Removed]

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

Ireland has no beaches to speak of

Ireland is, of course, an island and is completely encircled by beaches. What Ireland only occasionally has are sunny beaches.

 

[LoveMyPeppermill]

I assume his argument was that, as God had created two sexes, man and woman, that it was against his religious belief to address a man as a woman and vice-versa. ... It is only a courtesy to call them by a pronoun they prefer.

Yes, and if extending such courtesy to your clients (I use the term here in the sense that social workers do, as I think the student-teacher relationship is roughly similar) is part of your job, and you refuse to do that part of your job, you get disciplined. If a court orders you to do something and you don't do it, you go to jail for contempt of court. (Unless you are a Republican official in the United States, it would seem.)

How would the case of this teacher be different from that of Kim Davis refusing to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples in Rowan County, Kentucky?

 

[Latimer]

And what does your meandering rant about hysterical girls have to do with the topic. No. we haven't heard that there is a rash of disturbed girls using this like bulimia...which I would note was not a fad and still very much exists as a clinical psychological issue for too many teenage girls and boys.

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As you may know, the tide has turned in Europe against routine "sex reassignment" drugs and surgeries for minors. From the reliably leftist and woke Guardian:

"I might have seen one child with gender dysphoria once every two years when I started practising. It was very niche and rare.” Now, somewhere between 10% and 20% of her caseload is made up of adolescents registered as female at birth who identify as non-binary or trans, with just an occasional male-registered teenager who identifies as trans.

"Another senior child psychiatrist said girls who wanted to transition made up about 5% of her caseload.

" 'In the last five to 10 years we’ve seen a huge surge in young women who, at the age of around 12 or 13, want to become boys. They’ve changed their name and they are pressing … to have hormones or puberty blockers”

"The psychiatrist added: “Often those girls are children who are going through the normal identity and developmental problems of adolescence and finding a solution for themselves in this way.' "

As I stated: hysteria.

From Time Magazine: "While only 1 out of 1,000 Boomers report they are transgender (one-tenth of 1%), 23 out of 1,000 Gen Z young adults (2.30%)"

‘An explosion’: what is behind the rise in girls questioning their gender identity?

As the NHS reviews gender referrals, parents, clinicians and young people reveal the social, medical and emotional challenges they face

www.theguardian.com

 

[NotHardUp1]

Surely SOMEONE can see the potential here to refer to "those Irish sunny beaches" in a faux Latino inflection . . .

 

[pat grimshaw]

we’ve seen a huge surge in young women who, at the age of around 12 or 13, want to become boys.

25% of English school children don't want to be heterosexual.

 

[rareboy]

As you may know, the tide has turned in Europe against routine "sex reassignment" drugs and surgeries for minors. From the reliably leftist and woke Guardian:

"I might have seen one child with gender dysphoria once every two years when I started practising. It was very niche and rare.” Now, somewhere between 10% and 20% of her caseload is made up of adolescents registered as female at birth who identify as non-binary or trans, with just an occasional male-registered teenager who identifies as trans.

"Another senior child psychiatrist said girls who wanted to transition made up about 5% of her caseload.

" 'In the last five to 10 years we’ve seen a huge surge in young women who, at the age of around 12 or 13, want to become boys. They’ve changed their name and they are pressing … to have hormones or puberty blockers”

"The psychiatrist added: “Often those girls are children who are going through the normal identity and developmental problems of adolescence and finding a solution for themselves in this way.' "

As I stated: hysteria.

From Time Magazine: "While only 1 out of 1,000 Boomers report they are transgender (one-tenth of 1%), 23 out of 1,000 Gen Z young adults (2.30%)"

‘An explosion’: what is behind the rise in girls questioning their gender identity?

As the NHS reviews gender referrals, parents, clinicians and young people reveal the social, medical and emotional challenges they face

www.theguardian.com

Visibility is freeing.

More kids are questioning their identity because they have permission to question it.
They have parents who are more open to it.

And of course, given the rarity of child psychiatrists generally, it is no surprise that if there are some that are known to specialize in this area, they are the ones who who be getting referrals. I know this because it is the case with a child psychologist in our own family.

Are all these children going to continue on the path to being trans? Nope.

Are they having the opportunity to have counselling to help them understand their sexual and psycho-social development more fully? Yes.

Even 30 years ago, so little was really understood about sexual identity that most of the world was still struggling with the notion that homosexuality isn't just a deviant lifestyle choice. And even today, there are millions of people who should know better who think that it is the devil at work.

And the same intellectually sterile profiling was going on then about how there just seemed to be an explosion of people coming out as lesbian or gay when hardly anyone before had ever identified as homosexual.

I would hardly be using boomers as my touchstone for this. A lot of them are now in their late 70's. When we were growing up, transexuals were even rarer than unicorns.

I am at a loss to understand why so many adults, particularly homosexuals are so fucking triggered by transexuals or non-binary identity.

It literally has nothing to do with you, or me, if it isn't part of our own lives. It requires nothing from us but being an ally at best or just shutting up about it if it makes you uncomfortable but do not have the clinical expertise or education to comment on it with any shred of credibility.

 

[NotHardUp1]

I am at a loss to understand why so many adults, particularly homosexuals are so fucking triggered by transexuals or non-binary identity.

It literally has nothing to do with you, or me, if it isn't part of our own lives. It requires nothing from us but being an ally at best or just shutting up about it if it makes you uncomfortable but do not have the clinical expertise or education to comment on it with any shred of credibility.

In perspective, gays "triggered" by the trans issue are not all triggered against it. Far more may be triggered in support of it. As there are still more gays closeted than out, even in the West, we don't well know what the statistical data would tell us.

But, we do know that our own success is the cause of both sentiments. The LGBTQ coalition has won political gains in civil rights by working as a caucus, as those with shared goals but different orientations, and pretty different social lives and communities. We went from "gay rights" to "same sex partners" to the alphabet soup. There wasn't any national assembly of constituent members who met to decide which variations were in or out. It just kept growing, and being printed by self-appointed "experts" in an effort to demonstrate maximum inclusivity.

All the while, there were plenty of views about things like pride parades, sexual reassignment surgeries, sex workers, parenting, and political alliances, but any deviance from the most inclusive were deemed inauthentic. Only the good gays count.

As for commenters having or lacking credibility on JUB, that is a wrong-headed thought. We want all the views out there to be heard, to allow JUB readers to decide what is or isn't credible, to find resonance or repulsion when reading, or better yet, curiosity and the desire to study and read more sources to become more broadly informed. And, as all LGBTQ people have been lumped into a pile by our own advocates and subsequently by the majority hetero population, it is every gay man's right to discuss the grouping he has been put in, and the other members of the group. And the public perception does impact our lives.

And, [Text: Removed], Latimer is very faithful to make a distinct thread on the topic in question, and has done so consistently. People who do want to read on those subjects can do so, and threads not abou tthem can be free of the spam others inject.

 

[rareboy]

Too bad that the supporters seem to stay silent, while the triggered take up all the oxygen.

I don't have a problem with listening to anyone's opinion. But too often a personal opinion is presented as damning facts, only supported by some Twitter meme or unsupported assertions in mass media looking for clickbait headlines or stories.

The problem with the trans issue being discussed on JUB is that we have none that I am aware of who can speak on the issue from their own experience.

One of the reasons for this is that JUB seems to have historically been actually a pretty hostile environment for a lot of LGBTQ people. And we know it because they've told us so. We basically have lost all of our female posters, our gender non-binary and transgender or many other members of different races because they don't feel welcome in Hot Topics. There are other, more welcoming places for them to inter-act on-line.

Instead of being open to their stories and experiences as part of a community, we present them with often un-challenged white mansplaining...so confident now in our masculine identities that we spend our time looking for different and new ways to marginalize them.

Besides the simple fact of a massive shift in how social media is now used by younger people, the reason that JUB is atrophying is because so many have been shut down or shut out.

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Frankly, even I have tired of trying here in HT any more. I have more interesting things to do with my time as well than to engage in endless debate with racists, self hating homos and transphobes on JUB. Tired of standing up for those who literally have no presence here on JUB any more. Tired of posters [Text: Removed] who have made HT such an unpleasant experience for so many, while they get cheered on by a few who want to be spectators to drama.

I would love to see one....just one... new thread posted that is encompassing and supportive of everyone of all colours, races. religions or not, and sexual identities. Something that celebrates us all.

It won't happen, because it can't.

 

[fabulouslyghetto]

So how do pronouns relate to Christian faith?

I suspect that the reason his ass got thrown into jail was that there was nothing about his 'Christian' faith that justified not calling a student by their preferred pronouns.

He got thrown into jail for contempt of court.

Another whiny transphobe. Glad he lost his job.

Come on rareboy, you know nobody has been persecuted more than white Christians. Except for, ya know, most of human history.

 

[opinterph]

schoolteacher Enoch Burke was jailed after refusing to call a student by they/them pronouns

Enoch Burke was jailed for his refusal to comply with court orders banning him from Wilson's Hospital School during the period of his suspension from a teaching job at that school. He was suspended because he refused to engage in a rational discussion about his opposition to transgenderism and instead continued chanting to disrupt the meeting. He had also intimidated and harassed a colleague, engaged in a serious breach of confidentiality by disclosing information about a student, and posed a health and safety concern for students.

There are protections for freedom of expression built into this legislation. But ultimately, hate speech is not about free speech. Hate speech is designed to shut people down, to shut them up, to make them afraid to say who they are and to exclude and isolate them. There is nothing free about that, and there is, frankly, no place for it in our society.

–Helen McEntee, Ireland Minister for Justice

 

[rareboy]

^ And that is why Enoch Burke is the real victim here.....

At least in the eyes of his fellow travellers.

The argument from the Enoch Burkes is that they are being shut down, shut up and made afraid to say who they are and are being excluded and isolated.

And as cis white men who pretend to be 'Christian', their opinions should matter far more than the freaks and deviants and Devil spawn that they are fighting every day.

They live in perpetual rage and anguish that the binary Anglo-centric bronze age view of the world is being battered by women's rights, fags, trannies, muslims, brown people and god knows who else is now demanding a place at the table and the right to be validated.

And of course, the gutter press, playing to the prejudices of their always desperate to be enraged audience, will always make sure that the Enoch Burke's are being persecuted for their pure religious convictions and because Jesus apparently has told them that they are to be fuckwads and go before Him to make sure that it is all about pronouns.

There is no reconciliation possible.

 

[Kulindahr]

@ Essex Boy. I love visiting Ireland--I was there just about this time last year, only my second visit. On my first visit five years previously, I fell in love with the place and the people I met--and said to my partner I wish I had discovered what a great place it was earlier. It never occurs to me to visit a place for the beaches (too much of my life in Southern California has already been spent at beaches and in the water), but one of the things I like best about Ireland is that it's so green, and I can't get enough of the gentle rain and the mist. My last visit was during the big European heat wave. There was almost no rain--a disappointment--and it was 21 degrees, which I regard as an ideal temperature, but which a few locals mentioned to me they found too hot. You have little idea how depressing it is to fly back into Los Angeles--which looks so brown from the air--from the air after a visit to the British Isles.

Thirty years ago flying into L.A. it was hard to tell there was a city under the brown, and that was after two or ore decades of working to clean the air. I was incredibly glad I had an immediate transfer to another plane!

 

[pat grimshaw]

It seems the proposed law has sparked a new entity.

Hate Crime Bill Campaign — Not All Gays

We believe this bill will infringe on the rights of LGB people and their ability to express their sexual orientation without prosecution.

www.notallgays.org

https://twitter.com/NotAllGays