Emo Iraqis being stoned to death *Graphic*

[JayHawk]

Oh I thought your point was that we would be better off economically if we had not invaded.

Sorry about my mistake in reading.


It is sad that things like this happen all over the under developed world and yet here we are making this a Americans and War thread.

I will take Tiexxgrr's sage advice and leave. Cheers.

 

[Kulindahr]

BTW although not very much heralded there are still hundreds of American soldiers in Iraq training their security forces. much like what you point out Canadian forces are doing. That will not change in the near term.

And just why are we training forces for a religious tyranny?

 

[Kulindahr]

I would say we'd be a little better off economically if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq, because we wouldn't have uprooted thousands of people skilled at their jobs, leaving employers to replace them with less productive individuals.

 

[JayHawk]

And just why are we training forces for a religious tyranny?

Right because the last two places we invaded and trained for decades turned out horribly wrong....

 

[Kulindahr]

Right because the last two places we invaded and trained for decades turned out horribly wrong....

Kuwait and... ?

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Interesting concept. Ridiculous, but interesting: if I remove the thing that is keeping peace and order, I'm not responsible for the loss of peace and order.

We both know what happened there.

I seriously doubt that Bush and friends had foreseen the possibilty of endless infighting between the various groups within Iraq.

They wouldn't have claimed that they were making the world safe for democracy (or was that Afghanistan?) if they had set out to cause factional strife that would last decades.

 

[chrisw87]

I actually want to see what an emo Iraqi looks like, but don't want to click the link.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

^ They boy in the picture has 'gayish' hair and a white coat. Apart from the hair, he doesn't look like an emo at all.

 

[chrisw87]

^ They boy in the picture has 'gayish' hair and a white coat. Apart from the hair, he doesn't look like an emo at all.

Sounds like a K-pop artist... minus the Asian. I was expecting some sort of MCR band set in the middle of Iraq, no fun.

Pity this sort of thing still happens around the world though.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

Sounds like a K-pop artist... minus the Asian. I was expecting some sort of MCR band set in the middle of Iraq, no fun.

That's exactly what they look like.

 

[Kulindahr]

We both know what happened there.

I seriously doubt that Bush and friends had foreseen the possibilty of endless infighting between the various groups within Iraq.

They wouldn't have claimed that they were making the world safe for democracy (or was that Afghanistan?) if they had set out to cause factional strife that would last decades.

When it was gamed past the fall of Baghdad, the strife came out. Rumsfeld didn't want to hear it, so he only presented the results up to taking Baghdad.

We knew already that Iraq was a deeply divided tribal society held together only by the firm fist of Saddam. Some sociologists warned Bush what would happen, but he was so enthusiastically optimistic about "bringing democracy" it slid right by. Fantasy over-rode good sense.

 

[JayHawk]

Kuwait and... ?

Germany and Japan ... and yes Japan had a religion that was warped and completely deluded their society. Sound familiar?

And what the fuck is wrong with Kuwait anyways?

No with Iraq and Afghanistan we broke them and due to weak willed fucking narrow minded idiots we simply left it broken and went away. Now it can become the failure the left needs it to be.

 

[JayHawk]

When it was gamed past the fall of Baghdad, the strife came out. Rumsfeld didn't want to hear it, so he only presented the results up to taking Baghdad.

We knew already that Iraq was a deeply divided tribal society held together only by the firm fist of Saddam. Some sociologists warned Bush what would happen, but he was so enthusiastically optimistic about "bringing democracy" it slid right by. Fantasy over-rode good sense.

That was the Rumsfield issue and Bush's main failure as a leader was being unable to replce those he trusted when they were failing.

Rumsfield wanted to test a new light and technologically superior fighting strategy. Which worked like a champ. The containment and rebuilding part wasn't his mission and so therefore wasn't thought of in the planning stages.

Anyone who think that a brutal dictator and insane sons killing whomever the wish and whenever they wish is better is insane. The reason these kids would have never been killed under Saddaam is because they would have never been allowed the freedom of expression. Now they have to the extent that it got them killed and highlighted the extreme lack of civil liberties.

Whether you like it or not that was never going to change without blood being spilled.

 

[Kulindahr]

^ They boy in the picture has 'gayish' hair and a white coat. Apart from the hair, he doesn't look like an emo at all.

 

[Kulindahr]

Germany and Japan ... and yes Japan had a religion that was warped and completely deluded their society. Sound familiar?

And what the fuck is wrong with Kuwait anyways?

No with Iraq and Afghanistan we broke them and due to weak willed fucking narrow minded idiots we simply left it broken and went away. Now it can become the failure the left needs it to be.

Japan's religion made them submit and be so good at it they became better capitalists than we were. The religion in these two countries doesn't know what submission is and has no desire to imitate us.

And Germany was accustomed to centuries of war where sometimes one was on top and sometimes not, and rolled with the punches. Muslims are not accustomed to being on the bottom, and won't accept it.

So in those two places, religion and culture worked for us. That's not the case in the world of Islam.

To top it off, neither of those places was a country the way we conceive of it. They were more like pre-Magna Carta England -- very tribal, suffering a central government with barely concealed animosity.


Afghanistan needed about a quarter million on the ground to get right. Iraq needed three hundred thousand, as Powell told Bush -- and got canned for it. If we'd put everything we had into Afghanistan and not committed aggression against Iraw, we might have pulled that off. But as I said back then, judging from the British experience we would have had to stay a century to get a stable, peaceful society.

 

[Kulindahr]

That was the Rumsfield issue and Bush's main failure as a leader was being unable to replce those he trusted when they were failing.

Rumsfield wanted to test a new light and technologically superior fighting strategy. Which worked like a champ. The containment and rebuilding part wasn't his mission and so therefore wasn't thought of in the planning stages.

Anyone who think that a brutal dictator and insane sons killing whomever the wish and whenever they wish is better is insane. The reason these kids would have never been killed under Saddaam is because they would have never been allowed the freedom of expression. Now they have to the extent that it got them killed and highlighted the extreme lack of civil liberties.

Whether you like it or not that was never going to change without blood being spilled.

So Rumsfeld deliberately deceived the president about the mission.

And as a result we committed aggression and ended up with a basket case of a country, which is now headed toward an even more brutal dictatorship, where it isn't one dictator and his family acting on whims, but mobs of unrestrained religious thugs.

We should have taken Saddam up on his offer, then forced a republic on him, a Magna Carta type settlement that would in time lead to something better, adding a "House of Commons" to the "House of Lords".

Americans don't understand that sort of thing, because we never had our own tribal history.

 

[Harke the Boeotarch]

When it was gamed past the fall of Baghdad, the strife came out. Rumsfeld didn't want to hear it, so he only presented the results up to taking Baghdad.

We knew already that Iraq was a deeply divided tribal society held together only by the firm fist of Saddam. Some sociologists warned Bush what would happen, but he was so enthusiastically optimistic about "bringing democracy" it slid right by. Fantasy over-rode good sense.

I'm not giving Bush a free pass, it's just that the Iraqis are not children or animals and are every bit as responsible for their own actions as we are supposed to be.

 

[HunterM]

I'm not giving Bush a free pass, it's just that the Iraqis are not children or animals and are every bit as responsible for their own actions as we are supposed to be.

I'm with you. Iraqis are responsible for their own actions due to their religious sectarianism: Shiite vs. Sunnis. They have been disagreeing and fighting each other for ages. This is nothing new. It's very tribal.

Take Russia for an example. The Russian mafias are alive and well and control many industries through the use of violence, blackmails, etc. Is Gorbachev to blame for such societal corruptions for implementing his Perestroika reform which eventually toppled communism in the Easterm Bloc? Would Russia be a better place today if Communism did not fall apart? Just look at Cuba and North Korea for examples.

When I stayed in Russia 9 years ago, people over 35 (in general) wished they were still living under Communism. They told me there were no unemployment, no beggars on the street in those days. You didn't have to look for a job. The government assigned jobs for you to do (that means they don't know how to compete to get a job like the rest of us do in capitalistic countries).

Almost ALL people 30 and under (that I talked to) LOVE the new Russia. They love the opportunities to travel freely to Europe...to see other countries. For college students, they love to be able to choose their own subjects to study. They love the opportunities to buy their own food of choice with no government restrictions on how much each family can buy. They love European fashion trends and movies from Hollywood! They love their new freedom and wide spectrum of choices compared to what their parents had gone through in their lifetime.

Look at Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, and other modern Arab states. These are Muslim countries. Looking like an Emo is NOT a crime. Being a homosexual is a crime in some of these countries.

For the Iraqis, they need to learn to be responsible for their own actions on how to coexist with various religious sects in their own society. They need to learn how to deal with changes in their own society. They need to learn how to govern themselves. If they continue to enforce their tribal rituals and thinking, then stoning will continue. If enough Iraqis feel strongly that stoning of Emo Iraqis is wrong, then they need to stand up and do something for themselves! Just like the Egyptians was fed up with their own government, they started a revolution that toppled 30 years of Mubarak's dictatorship.

Iraqis have to shape their own future collectively.

 

[FPNY]

read the article Yahoo News has posted on this situation, then read the comments made by the posters on that site. I'm surprised that given the hatred people post about gays that we are not getting out heads bashed in all over the world.
http://news.yahoo.com/fear-death-sq...QDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdAM-;_ylv=3

 

[Rusty Crown]

RIP innocent kids. sadly this won't be the end, Egypt is on its way for that shit.