equality - fairness

[metta]

I have a couple friends that took a vacation in the US last month. They are from Germany and have a civil partnership (marriage). When they came into the US, they were told that that their relationship was not recognized, and that they would have to get out of the line and fill in seperate forms, unlike the straight married couples that are recognized.

Would it really be that big of a deal to treat tourists with a little respect and just recognize that gay couples who are on vacation from another country are married? I just find it to be a little embarassing that the US is so backwards.

 

[randyreese]

Know what you are talking about - many of my gay friends here in Canada are married and have experienced the same thing at the US border. It doesn't seem fair but in reality that's the way the system works. One couple I know will be celebrating their 40th year as a couple next year and they spend 6 months of the year in New Orleans - they are embarrassed each time they travel to USA. I just want to include that my brother and his partner have been together 27 years, and my partner of 12 years and I were just witnesses to a gay marriage of a couple who have been together for 30 years. Within a month or so we shall also be taking that step and making it legal. Cheers to us, guys! I guess I'm just trying to say that gay men can have a dignified, loving, lasting relationship - it should be respected - we are part of your community and are doing you no harm. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[slobone]

First of all, civil partnership isn't marriage. So even in countries that recognize gay marriage they might be asked to fill in separate forms.

Second of all -- where's the problem here? If filling out a separate form is the worst harassment you ever experience crossing a border, you haven't traveled very much. I was searched and interrogated going into Canada, that enlightened liberal country, because they somehow got it into their fuzzy little heads that I was a drug smuggler.

 

[metta]

well, we are not just talking about any county, we are talking about the United States, which has historically prided itself on civil rights, equal rights, justice, etc.

Just as forcing blacks to drink in different drinking fountains and sitting in the back fo the bus, I still think that it is wrong to treat gay couples differently than the straight couples and to say that they are not even reccognized, as if they do not even exist.

 

[gsdx]

First of all, civil partnership isn't marriage. So even in countries that recognize gay marriage they might be asked to fill in separate forms.

A civil marriage in Canada is equally recognized as a church marriage. Churches in Canada are not required to hold gay marriages. They hold the right to decline a request. However, any gay marriage which takes place in a church is as recognized as a hetero marriage.

For that marriage to be denied existance at the border is wrong.

 

[irish1]

I HATE filling out forms. Period.

I do not understand why someone visiting the United States, as a tourist, should be subjected to more forms; shouldn't a passport be sufficient?

Our friends from other countries come here to site-see, and to spend their hard-earned money.

This situation, unfortunately, has changed since 9/11.

I travel extensively throughout the country, and have been frisked and had my bags pulled off the line for inspection many times. I am patient with it because I understand that it is for my safety, and the safety of others. Most of the inspectors are really nice, but, like in any field, give someone a little power over others, and they seem to take that authority as the ability to be rude, or unhelpful, to their clients, in this case travelers and tourists.

Hopefully, the next time this happens, the people will experience a more welcoming attitude toward themselves and their legal status.

 

[tbonez]

well, we are not just talking about any county, we are talking about the United States, which has historically prided itself on civil rights, equal rights, justice, etc.

Just as forcing blacks to drink in different drinking fountains and sitting in the back fo the bus, I still think that it is wrong to treat gay couples differently than the straight couples ...

Despite the fact that I think the US has so much to offer and is a great country THIS is one of the main reasons I would never live there. In fact, I'm reluctant to even holiday there despite having many friends in Boston and the fact that I spent a few summers there with my parents. (My dad's work.)

As someone pointed out, there are much more repressive regimes out there. I'm not interested in taking a vacation in the Middle East either. Saying you the US 'isn't the worst' is no endorsement or enticement, not when there are so may better options (IMHO). This whole swing to the radical fundamentalist movement is ruining a great country. Really a bloody shame.

 

[RationalLunacy]

well, we are not just talking about any county, we are talking about the United States, which has historically prided itself on civil rights, equal rights, justice, etc.

Just as forcing blacks to drink in different drinking fountains and sitting in the back fo the bus, I still think that it is wrong to treat gay couples differently than the straight couples and to say that they are not even reccognized, as if they do not even exist.

You answered your own question. Yes, the U.S., supposed "champion of freedom, democracy, and civil rights", did allow men in hoods to burn crosess on people's lawns. Yes, we did have separate bathrooms & fountains for blacks and whites. Even women, at one time, could not vote.

Gay people are simply the next incarnation of our prejudices. When they're tired of badgering us (or we become too powerful a force to reckon with), it'll be Hispanics next. Look at all the illegal alien stuff in the news. We get illegal aliens from all over the world, but they only talk about Mexicans.

Next!

 

[bma1983]

Despite the fact that I think the US has so much to offer and is a great country THIS is one of the main reasons I would never live there. In fact, I'm reluctant to even holiday there despite having many friends in Boston and the fact that I spent a few summers there with my parents. (My dad's work.)

As someone pointed out, there are much more repressive regimes out there. I'm not interested in taking a vacation in the Middle East either. Saying you the US 'isn't the worst' is no endorsement or enticement, not when there are so may better options (IMHO). This whole swing to the radical fundamentalist movement is ruining a great country. Really a bloody shame.

Choosing where to live is your prerogative, but comparing the current climate the US finds itself is nowhere near that of the Middle East. (And not fair.) And those better options you bring up, what are they exactly? Even the most liberal of countries have numerous incidents of gays being beaten and killed. If the US is your standard of countries not worth visiting, then you pretty much limited yourself from most of the world’s nations. Yeah, there are other countries that grant same-sex marriage and treat gays better on average, but you can count them on one hand. The vast majority of this world gives no recognition (or respect) to gays and gay couples. The US is not the only one.

 

[luminum]

It's really not about having to fill out forms, it's the principle. I think you can understand that.

This shouldn't even be an issue of 'when in Rome' because this is the 21st century and for America to claim itself to be the pillar of freedom and equality in the world, it IS rather embarassing and downright stupid.

Is it a huge deal? No. Is it embarassing? Yes. Is it backwards and hypocritical? Yes. Does it highlight a bigger problem? Completely.

 

[metta]

If your answer is ....that's just the way it is and we just have to accept it....

I don't think so! We need to speak up and expalain why we feel it is wrong. We need to pressure on our government to change these embarrasing policies. We need to ensure that gay individuals and couples are treated with fairness and respect that every human being deserves.

 

[looseliam]

Yet another instance I'm ashamed to be an American. Are there any countries accepting applications? I'm a hard-working 26 year old gay male. *sigh*

 

[SFMusic]

I agree with John W on this... when in Rome, do as the Romans do..

Just because i can drink aged 18 in the UK, doesnt mean that i should be able to stick two fingers up at the law in the USA and do it.. if the law there states 21, its 21.

Likewise for sex.. in some countries, sex with a 14yo is classed as alright.. here in the UK its 16, in the USA I understand its 18... you adhere to the laws in each particular country. In just the same way i wouldnt admit to being openly gay in Iran!!

That's not a good analogy at all. A 16 yo that gets a legal marriage in one state, can travel to another state (where it is illegal for a 16 yo to get married) and that marriage will be recognized as valid.

Just because a law exsists doesn't make it right. Legal marriages in another country should be recognized here in the US.

 

[tbonez]

...comparing the current climate the US finds itself is nowhere near that of the Middle East. (And not fair.)

First off, the Middle East in more than Iran ya know. (Ever hear of a country called "Israel"?) Some of it is quite progressive. I wasn't drawing any comparison in as much as I was suggesting they were alike in any way. Please read my post before jumping to that conclusion.

And those better options you bring up, what are they exactly? Yeah, there are other countries that grant same-sex marriage and treat gays better on average, but you can count them on one hand. The vast majority of this world gives no recognition (or respect) to gays and gay couples. The US is not the only one.

Um, lets see...Much of Western Europe; Spain and the UK in particular. Glasgow is somewhere I could live ,weather aside. The Netherlands & Holland & Denmark, Sweden (Not just for the blondes). Germany, France...

I did say "one of the reasons" BTW and I think I have repeatedly and consistently said I think the US is a fine country....one of the top 20 or so in the world IMO.

 

[bma1983]

First off, the Middle East in more than Iran ya know. (Ever hear of a country called "Israel"?) Some of it is quite progressive. I wasn't drawing any comparison in as much as I was suggesting they were alike in any way. Please read my post before jumping to that conclusion..

I’m not stupid. I know where Israel is located. And the US is as much alike to the Middle East (Israel included) as it is to the planet Mars.

Um, lets see...Much of Western Europe; Spain and the UK in particular. Glasgow is somewhere I could live ,weather aside. The Netherlands & Holland & Denmark, Sweden (Not just for the blondes). Germany, France...

I did say "one of the reasons" BTW and I think I have repeatedly and consistently said I think the US is a fine country....one of the top 20 or so in the world IMO.

I don’t know what your other reasons are, and I really don’t care, but as far as the gay issue goes, the US is no different or in fact better off than many of the countries you listed as better alternatives to the US.

Out of those countries, (as far as I know) Spain and the Netherlands are the only ones that have gay marriage. And even with gay marriage in these countries I would be hard-pressed to believe that they (no matter how liberal they are) are beacons of gay equality.
The UK offers its 2nd class civil unions. Germany and France don't offer gays the right to marry. So what makes them different from the US? Are you telling me that none of the countries you listed have a homophobic populace? At least in Massachusetts there is the option for marriage, and in other states the option of civil unions.

No the US does not have a pood record on how it treats it’s gay citizens. But in all honesty, no country does.

 

[metta]

No the US does not have a pood record on how it treats it’s gay citizens. But in all honesty, no country does.

That is not a good enough justification for it to continue.

 

[slobone]

A civil marriage in Canada is equally recognized as a church marriage. Churches in Canada are not required to hold gay marriages. They hold the right to decline a request. However, any gay marriage which takes place in a church is as recognized as a hetero marriage.

For that marriage to be denied existance at the border is wrong.

It's not a question of is it wrong -- of course it's wrong. The question is, how big a nuisance is it to fill out two forms instead of one? I don't think it ranks very high.

I'm assuming that two gay travelers coming to the US must know we don't have nationwide gay marriage here. Why were they so shocked?

If they want to make a big stink about it, I can think of plenty worse evils in the world to protest.

 

[bma1983]

That is not a good enough justification for it to continue.

I don't ever recall saying it was.

As much as I would love to live in a country that offers gay couples the same rights and respect as str8 couples, I realize that it's not gonna happen over night. Just like it didn't happen over night in countries that do have gay marriage, and the like. Sadly it takes time. And we in the US are not alone in this fight.

 

[tbonez]

I’m not stupid. I know where Israel is located. And the US is as much alike to the Middle East (Israel included) as it is to the planet Mars.

I don’t know what your other reasons are, and I really don’t care, but as far as the gay issue goes, the US is no different or in fact better off than many of the countries you listed as better alternatives to the US.

READ man! I CLEARLY, and repeatedly said I wasn't suggesting they were IN ANY WAY "the same".

Out of those countries, (as far as I know) Spain and the Netherlands are the only ones that have gay marriage. And even with gay marriage in these countries I would be hard-pressed to believe that they (no matter how liberal they are) are beacons of gay equality.

I don't know about you, but I have actually lived in Spain and the UK and the US (For periods of about two months at a time, granted.) Yes, many European countries are "beacons of gay equity".

Trust me on this one, when it come to being obsessed with other peoples sexuality the US ranks # ONE in my experience. You can't get fired anywhere in the UK, Spain, Canada or most of Western Europe for being gay (legally). Gay couples enjoy automatic inheritance rights, common law status and legal parity with straight couples in most situations...Not so in the US where an estranged sibling can intervene in medical emergencies or death despite the standing of long-term same-sex partners. Gay couples can adopt in those countries as well BTW.

No the US does not have a pood record on how it treats it’s gay citizens. But in all honesty, no country does.

In fact it has one of the worst records in the Western World.

Feel free to wrap yourself in the flag, just know you aren't covering up very much, I can still see your butt hanging out.

 

[runner]

I hate filling out forms. I am married to an English woman, and I always have to fill out more forms when I enter the UK. But that is the system. What's the big deal? I don't see how it could be an embarrasment.