Explosions, shootings reported in central Paris

[xbuzzerx]

I think this has some truth. At the same time though, if the west had done nothing, the training camps etc would just be in Afghanistan. And if not Afghanistan, then somewhere else. The fact is, there is a hardline faction of the Islam religion who sees anyone that isn't Muslim as infidels who deserve to die if they don't convert. And their aim is to have a Muslim world where Sharia Law is adhered to. Those hardline factions have always been there. The internet and technology has made recruitment easier. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

It pisses me off when people excuse these barbaric acts as the Wests fault. On top of that, the deaths in Iraq etc weren't, in the main, carried out by the west, but at the hands of Muslims themselves.

The invasion of Iraq, not Afghanistan, is most responsible for the current level of threat of ISIS. And that was pure "we want to install democracy, and like, uh, terrorists might be here too, and weapons. So regime change!"

 

[zoltanspawn]

incredible historical injustice..yeah sure. What era we live today? We can learn from past and throw better management to those migrants..complete with surveillance cam, refugee testimonies, security guards, etc..

if my quarantine muslims- program might sounds unrealistic to you because of the Saudis, then I do think so. They play pivotal role aren't they Saudis?^^

I wonder if the sort of folks who would blithely incarcerate people who have committed no crimes would draw clear distinctions between, say, Muslims and people from Muslim countries.

 

[justaguy]

The invasion of Iraq, not Afghanistan, is most responsible for the current level of threat of ISIS. And that was pure "we want to install democracy, and like, uh, terrorists might be here too, and weapons. So regime change!"

But 9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq, did it not? If not ISIS, then some other group would have popped up for those with doomsday thoughts to gravitate to and carry out atrocities.

 

[rareboy]

I think this has some truth. At the same time though, if the west had done nothing, the training camps etc would just be in Afghanistan. And if not Afghanistan, then somewhere else. The fact is, there is a hardline faction of the Islam religion who sees anyone that isn't Muslim as infidels who deserve to die if they don't convert. And their aim is to have a Muslim world where Sharia Law is adhered to. Those hardline factions have always been there, and I believe 9/11 would have occured regardless of what America or anyone else did. The internet and technology has made recruitment easier. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

It pisses me off when people excuse these barbaric acts as the Wests fault. On top of that, the deaths in Iraq etc weren't, in the main, carried out by the west, but at the hands of Muslims themselves.

Ok, let's try and negotiate. Well, it's pretty obvious there is no negotiating with these people. Their bottom line is that everyone has to convert. Nothing less is acceptable.

No one is excusing a terrorist act. This erroneous logical fallacy runs rampant at times like this.

Of course terrorism against civilians is inexcusable. At any time. For any reason. It has been forever...whether it has been in the name of Christianity, Islam, Aetheism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Communism, Fascism or Democracy.

But it doesn't help for the whole western world to suddenly go deaf and to pretend that all of this has not been grounded in decades or even centuries of conflict...not only between Christianity and Islam but between the main factions of Ilam itself. There apparently needs to be a reminder that none of this is happening in isolation and that west has been complicit in the rise of wahhabist fundamentalism financed and promulgated by the oil rich Saudis, a fake 'Royal' tribal family that was elevated by the British government in the partition of the Ottoman Empire.

I don't know what everyone was learning in high school history when we were being taught that everything for the rest of our lives would be defined and viewed in the context of the break-up of the Ottoman Empire and the creation of Israel. My teacher was much more prescient then even she probably knew.

And although it probably seems like a ridiculous notion in New Zealand, please bear in mind that there are millions of people in the US today who believe that the Bible (read: the Old Testament) should be the ultimate civil authority....not unlike those who beleive in Sharia law. Also, don't forget that Britain and the US maintained some pretty draconian laws and punishments until well into the 20th century which were defended as having the force of scripture behind them.

We all aren't that far away from those days as we'd like to pretend.

 

[rareboy]

But 9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq, did it not? If not ISIS, then some other group would have popped up for those with doomsday thoughts to gravitate to and carry out atrocities.

You might want to look up why bin Laden wanted to punish the US. It isn't because of Sharia law or just wanting to kill infidels.

Again it has to do with the US maintaining bases in Saudi Arabia and the western support for Israel.

 

[jbrown329]

But 9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq, did it not? If not ISIS, then some other group would have popped up for those with doomsday thoughts to gravitate to and carry out atrocities.

There was no al-Qaeda or ISIS/IL in Iraq until Bush the lesser invaded. al-Qaeda was pretty much contained in Afghanistan and the border regions of Pakistan. Junior's war pretty much opened the gates.

And before anyone starts flapping their gums, NO. I am NOT sticking up for Saddam.

 

[Zeno Lorea]

But 9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq, did it not? If not ISIS, then some other group would have popped up for those with doomsday thoughts to gravitate to and carry out atrocities.

Very true! And muslim terrorists have been around for as long as I've been alive. And for as long as I can remember, they have struck in places that never got involved with any 'muslim lands' in any way.

 

[JPGhost]

Sometimes, doing one's own thinking, and doing one's own research can help to prevent one from making a fool of oneself.

On the first section you quote, you may want to check the figures and compute the percentages of the terrorist attacks in the EU which were committed by Muslims.

Come again? ..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

But of course we know that the terrorists are radical Islamists. Of course they are. They learned during the European colonization of North Africa and the middle east that terrorism is effective. They learned during the destruction of Palestine that terrorism is effective. They learned (quite literally) from the US during the proxy war with the USSR in Afghanistan that terrorism is effective. They learned during the partition of India that terrorism is effective.

There's not much question here.

And like the Sikhs and the Hindus terrorizing one another...or the Irish Republican Army terrorizing the Protestants in Great Britain....or Bader Meinhoff Red Army Faction terrorizing Germany, the Islamists know that nothing catches the attention of media and citizens like some good old fashioned slaughter. And over the years, Russia, China, the US, Britain and France, not to say Israel, India, and a host of African countries have all trained and financed terrorism in conflicts all around the globe. Covertly and overtly.

And it is all of this and all of that, that has resulted in us being where we are today.

Which is a sad day. It isn't as sad as at the height of the Second World War where the 'civilized' western nations were slaughtering one another by the millions between 1938 and 1945....but it isn't nearly as out of control as that period either.

What most people today lack is simple perspective...and certainly...as I can guarantee in your case, the understanding and perhaps even the ability to understand how each point in time is simply the culmination of centuries of historical conflicts....and tomorrow and next week and next year it will still be the same. We are doomed to keep fighting 3500 year old tribal war against one another until we finally discard all religious cults and bronze age texts and antiquated ideologies.

The one thing to bear in mind is that the WWI...only 100 year ago, was the conflict between the medieval and the modern mass industrial age. Many parts of the world have never experienced this scale of upheaval until the last few decades and many rural tribal societies still have yet to come into this same age.

Europe, America and much of Asia did not get to 2015 without some of the most breath-takingly savage conflict in the past 100 years that no one on this board carrying on about 129 people killed in Paris can even begin to comprehend. It is a testament to the resilience and adaptabilty through capitulation that now allows us all to live in relative harmony with one another.

There may be yet hundreds of thousands of lives lost before the different sects of Islam reach that accommodation with each other and with the rest of the world as well.

That is the simple harsh reality.

Thank you for your time and persuasion.^^

 

[JPGhost]

For anyone, including you, to quote a "solution" to radical extremism today by citing the internment as if it was a good idea, is a fantastic example of HOW LITTLE anyone has "learned from the past."

What do you mean? That's not what I meant

You do have peculiar way of thinking, your practical solution also very dim if not very bright

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

folkees luv slap wee all ova place
_tey no we_
rr but tey we cause vote we
" wot aboot oda wee?"
lota wee
! eva tink tey figa da 1? !
@ ooh neva nose @

anyway

all a tem uni train apees a eons alls busy workin ons teys we
_ooh luckee we_
ha

tinku

 

[JPGhost]

I wonder if the sort of folks who would blithely incarcerate people who have committed no crimes would draw clear distinctions between, say, Muslims and people from Muslim countries.

Incarcerate? Who did? I'm not going to do that ..^^

Here..how about Zoltan, Buzzer, Rareboy, JohnnyAnger and everyone with similar view "write" a constitution or commandment in how to deal with Islamic extremists and immigration?<-- that's the issue, don't derail to somewhere else.. in current time, right now?

What actions you guys actually want to offer?

k- brb I'm workin..

 

[zoltanspawn]

Incarcerate? Who did? I'm not going to do that ..^^.

When you suggest quarantining Muslims as America did Japanese people during the war, we are led to believe you are advocating just that.

Do you mean something else?

 

[justaguy]

And although it probably seems like a ridiculous notion in New Zealand, please bear in mind that there are millions of people in the US today who believe that the Bible (read: the Old Testament) should be the ultimate civil authority....

Even in NZ, we get treated to twice yearly visits by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Lol.

 

[justaguy]

You might want to look up why bin Laden wanted to punish the US. It isn't because of Sharia law or just wanting to kill infidels.

Again it has to do with the US maintaining bases in Saudi Arabia and the western support for Israel.

It was deeper than that, I think.

Bin Laden :

This is a new battle, a great battle, similar to the great battles of Islam, like the conquest of Jerusalem. I believe that there is only one God and there is no prophet but Mohammed. America was hit by God in one of its softest spots. America is full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that.

 

[jbrown329]

My uncle's step-grandson is going to school in Paris. His apartment is about 2 blocks from that restaurant and on a normal Friday evening, he and friends would've been in there. Thankfully something came up and he (and friends) wasn't at the restaurant.

 

[xbuzzerx]

But 9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq, did it not? If not ISIS, then some other group would have popped up for those with doomsday thoughts to gravitate to and carry out atrocities.

I don't get the point you're making here. 9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq, so even though it was carried out by an entirely different group in an entirely different country, ISIS would have happened anyway even if we hadn't destroyed a secular government that was intolerant of religious extremists?

 

[xbuzzerx]

What do you mean? That's not what I meant

Oh really?

Nothing contradicting if I thought "there are good people in every religion" while I'm stick in my personal policy, which is.."quarantine muslims now" If they're good people, they show loyalty to this country (whatever country they migrated for) policy to help with national security because we're heading in the tough time. I'm glad that few in news started to think like me online..^^

What Japanese American do in Pearl Harbor era, in the 40's? They comply with the quarantine procedure safe and sound. Why not muslims?

Yes, your idea is dangerous and steeped in an ignorance of history. You even act like "forcing Japanese to prove their loyalty" by throwing them in concentration camps and taking away everything they owned was a not so bad thing.

 

[zoltanspawn]

Apparently, we now have governors of 24 states (23 republicans) claiming Syrian refugees aren't welcome.

What a bunch of chickenshit pussies.

 

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

^ ooh dear

tinku

 

[ChickenGuy]

Perhaps rareboy or xbuzzerx can address this contradiction in their views....

You say (and I agree completely with you on these points) that Saudi Arabia's history in the last century has seen the rise of wahabbism and that the country has embraced an extreme Sunni doctrine, which has resulted in oil-rich individuals in the country funding and bankrolling terrorism, as the same with other Gulf states. We might also include, on the opposite side, the Iranian Revolution in 1979 as a step towards fundamental Shia doctrine. And so a sectarian civil war breaks out, and Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism is the result.

How does this square with your view that Islamic terrorism has been caused by the invasion of Iraq, and that all the blame for Islamic terrorism can be laid at the door of the United States and allies for their military intervention?

You cannot have it both ways.