Explosions, shootings reported in central Paris

[SaskGuy]

Apparently, we now have governors of 24 states (23 republicans) claiming Syrian refugees aren't welcome.

What a bunch of chickenshit pussies.

Brad Wall, the premier of Saskatchewan wants to slow down the influx of refugees for more security and screening.
http://www.saskatoonhomepage.ca/loc...ocess-to-slow-for-more-security-and-screening

In typical fashion, people are reacting as if he went on a racist rampage, and that Saskatchewan in general is full of dirty inbred rednecks. Just take a look at this parody site's take on the situation...
http://www.thebeaverton.com/nationa...es-relieved-they-won-t-end-up-in-saskatchewan

 

[xbuzzerx]

How does this square with your view that Islamic terrorism has been caused by the invasion of Iraq, and that all the blame for Islamic terrorism can be laid at the door of the United States and allies for their military intervention?

I don't recall anyone anywhere claiming that Islamic terrorism didn't exist before the invasion of Iraq. But the invasion of Iraq, which destroyed a secular government that was intolerant of religious extremism, left the power vaccuum into which current-day ISIS stepped and thrived.

So, I'm really unaware of what contradiction you were detecting. Or thought you were detecting.

You can whackamole the "horrible guy of today" until the end of time, if you don't address the root of where this state-created extremism is coming from (and as you seem to agree, the doing-so has virtually nothing to do with religion and everything to do with one family's insane grip on power and obscene wealth) and we'll be at this for the next 100 years.

This policy of "no no, put that crap aside, what's relevant TODAY is ISIS, and we MUST do something about it-- NOW!" is effectually what U.S. policy in the region has been since the early-mid 20th century. So I ask you again: has it gotten better?

 

[Vitamin]

Perhaps rareboy or xbuzzerx can address this contradiction in their views....

You say (and I agree completely with you on these points) that Saudi Arabia's history in the last century has seen the rise of wahabbism and that the country has embraced an extreme Sunni doctrine, which has resulted in oil-rich individuals in the country funding and bankrolling terrorism, as the same with other Gulf states. We might also include, on the opposite side, the Iranian Revolution in 1979 as a step towards fundamental Shia doctrine. And so a sectarian civil war breaks out, and Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism is the result.

How does this square with your view that Islamic terrorism has been caused by the invasion of Iraq, and that all the blame for Islamic terrorism can be laid at the door of the United States and allies for their military intervention?

You cannot have it both ways.

While it's certainly impossible to put the ENTIRE blame for Islamic terrorism on the West, or even just the United States, it's difficult to see a world with Saddam Hussein in power, and ISIS being what it is today.

 

[Kabluey]

While it's certainly impossible to put the ENTIRE blame for Islamic terrorism on the West, or even just the United States, it's difficult to see a world with Saddam Hussein in power, and ISIS being what it is today.

That really spoils certain people's desire to see 1.5 billion people as a monolithic west-hating entity.

 

[rareboy]

Perhaps rareboy or xbuzzerx can address this contradiction in their views....

You say (and I agree completely with you on these points) that Saudi Arabia's history in the last century has seen the rise of wahabbism and that the country has embraced an extreme Sunni doctrine, which has resulted in oil-rich individuals in the country funding and bankrolling terrorism, as the same with other Gulf states. We might also include, on the opposite side, the Iranian Revolution in 1979 as a step towards fundamental Shia doctrine. And so a sectarian civil war breaks out, and Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism is the result.

How does this square with your view that Islamic terrorism has been caused by the invasion of Iraq, and that all the blame for Islamic terrorism can be laid at the door of the United States and allies for their military intervention?

You cannot have it both ways.

I'm not claiming that terrorism is the result of the US and British war of adventure in Iraq. Never have. Much of the rise of Islamic terrorism over the last 50 years goes back to US support for Israel.

But the Iraq debacle is what gave us the rise of the latest terrorist faction, ISIS.

And with the Iraq war, and the rise of social media, terrorists have learned to operate differently.

 

[kallipolis]

One of the many goals of the Salafist movement is to recruit from European countries, young locally born Muslims for training as soldiers to expand the goals of the new Caliphate.

Sowing chaos, and fear is the first principle of all terrorist movements, in expectation that the authorities will over react by implementing measures firmly directed at their Muslim populations, thereby alienating the very people who can be highly effective in providing intelligence on the movements of potential terrorists, and other collaborators with Islamic terrorist groups.

I am reassured that state security services such as France's DGSI, and the United Kingdom's MI5 are making practical use of recruits from their respective Muslim communities.

 

[peeonme]

I'm not claiming that terrorism is the result of the US and British war of adventure in Iraq. Never have. Much of the rise of Islamic terrorism over the last 50 years goes back to US support for Israel.

But the Iraq debacle is what gave us the rise of the latest terrorist faction, ISIS.

And with the Iraq war, and the rise of social media, terrorists have learned to operate differently.

We can go back to who fucked someone's goat without their permission. I suppose then by what you point to with the US support of Israel we should hold Germany responsible in as much as Israel became a nation (again) as a result of Nazi Germany's driving them out or killing the Jews.

I would submit that we can find an excuse for all actions. I didn't get a tricycle when I was 3 years old, therefore I can take out this deprivation on the rest of innocent humanity.

People in a theater or in a sidewalk café become the target of maniac Islamic fundamentalist killers because ______________ . (fill in the blank)

Humanity needs to hold those who kill innocent people responsible, not issue a pass because life has been unfair.
There is no doubt that activities by the USA and other nations were not proper, this gives no excuse to murder in God's name.

 

[kallipolis]

Humanity needs to hold those who kill innocent people responsible, not issue a pass because life has been unfair.

No one here questions the common sense of your words...the big question is, how one goes about it....without alienating Muslim communities in Europe, that can become fertile recruitment territory for Islamic terrorist organisations....the goal of the leaders of the new Caliphate.

 

[MakeDigitalLove]

Apparently, we now have governors of 24 states (23 republicans) claiming Syrian refugees aren't welcome.

What a bunch of chickenshit pussies.

Unfortunately this just seems like an opportunity for them to do this.

 

[Telstra]

Alright guys, a message from a peace loving Muslim

 

[NotHardUp1]

Wait.

ISIL has a monthly magazine?

Does Rupert Murdoch know about this?

Footnote: Mr. Aly is stating plainly that fanning Islamophobic flames of hate is helping ISIL. This comes as a surprise to no one in this thread who has been opposing the Muslim bashing.

 

[Telstra]

Wait.

ISIL has a monthly magazine?

Does Rupert Murdoch know about this?

Footnote: Mr. Aly is stating plainly that fanning Islamophobic flames of hate is helping ISIL. This comes as a surprise to no one in this thread who has been opposing the Muslim bashing.

Some US states want to ban Syrian refugees ... that is truly Muslim bashing.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Some US states want to ban Syrian refugees ... that is truly Muslim bashing.

That is unquestionably true. And those states should be publicly shamed by our government, and President Obama has already done so.

Well, what do you know? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

 

[peeonme]

No one here questions the common sense of your words...the big question is, how one goes about it....without alienating Muslim communities in Europe, that can become fertile recruitment territory for Islamic terrorist organisations....the goal of the leaders of the new Caliphate.

I suppose I see things far more simplistically than some might.
A sword in one hand and an olive branch in the other... severe repercussions for terrorists and those who fund and support them, and a society open to diversity and receptive to those who wish to assimilate and live in peace.

We might want to ask is what alienates those who are young Muslims and makes them ripe for the picking by extremist groups.
I find that there is a bit of an irony that young males who in many cases are from homes of opportunity leave behind the privileges that they grew up with to join what they see is the true Islam.

If there were none to recruit this problem would pass on it's own, but, for everyone that blows himself up for his cause another seems to be ready to take his place.

Young men are always open to recruitment, in the USA back in the '60's young men threw off materialism and looked for the real meaning of life. Some became members of religious cults, others joined militant political groups. Now most young men in the US are self centered and are out of reach of cult leaders.

So, the element that seems to make these young Muslims open to recruitment is their faith, not that their faith teaches terrorism by it's self, it keeps them separated from society and leaves them open to terrorist groups.

Perhaps the cure is to lure them from their faith with self centered materialism along with teaching them that the book that they believe in conflicts with science and must be wrong. It seems to have worked here in the USA, many have forsaken the faith of their fathers and are out of reach of cult leaders.

 

[NotHardUp1]

I would rather think that second-class status is what makes young Muslim Europeans vulnerable. Despite any inclusive language or egalitarian law, Muslims are latecomers to mainstream European society, and even in secular France there is a hegemony of Catholic tradition that must often view Islam as a lesser tradition.

They must also feel some reactionary antipathy at the ridicule of their culture as repressive of women and not thoroughly modern.

Combine those affronts to their cultural identity with the poverty that the majority live within, and you have very fertile ground indeed for revolutionary or terrorist fervor. That some young men of wealth or privilege join in order to validate themselves as true Muslim brothers is not surprising, as identity crises are the rule for individuals in every culture.

Islamic extremism's beatification of martyrs is also a fair target when hunting for causes, in addition to the absolutism that is the fundamental tenet of the Koran being unadulterated. Any time the conversation in religion turns to a presumed purity, be it of text, motives, or "true" identity, the groundwork is instantly laid for fanaticism to take hold. It is true of almost every fundamentalist order on the planet.

 

[kallipolis]

Timothy McVeigh's actions in Oklahoma City testify to the willingness of brain washed young men, and women to commit acts of terror to further the agendas of groups driven by paranoia that make no sense to the general population.

I don't believe that there is a ready remedy that can be applied to deny recruits to terrorist organisations, such as Islamic States.... I readily accept that we have years ahead of us, attempting to defeat Islamic States plan to construct a Caliphate across the Muslim countries of the Middle East....in order words, today I am pessimistic.

 

[peeonme]

@NotHardUp1, I think perhaps we are saying the same thing, we must find a way to water down their faith, lure them in to main street society with riches and wealth and alienate them from their family and friends.

Many have walked away from fundamentalism of all faiths when tempted in the proper fashion. Another term for this might be assimilation with others outside of their faith, the burden for that lies with us to befriend these young men and not to reject and hate them.

 

[peeonme]

Timothy McVeigh's actions in Oklahoma City testify to the willingness of brain washed young men, and women to commit acts of terror to further the agendas of groups driven by paranoia that make no sense to the general population.

I don't believe that there is a ready remedy that can be applied to deny recruits to terrorist organisations, such as Islamic States.... I readily accept that we have years ahead of us, attempting to defeat Islamic States plan to construct a Caliphate across the Muslim countries of the Middle East....in order words, today I am pessimistic.

It has been said that a journey of a thousand mile begins with the first step.
We can't let pessimism keep us from trying. If Jihadists can recruit then why can't we? Rejection hasn't worked very well.

 

[NotHardUp1]

Timothy McVeigh's actions in Oklahoma City testify to the willingness of brain washed young men, and women to commit acts of terror to further the agendas of groups driven by paranoia that make no sense to the general population.

I would proffer that it does make sense to those who bother to look. A marginalized and disrespected minority is a likely medium in which young men may become violently radicalized. The nature of the cause is not so important as its impotence or perceived futility.

Rather than believing their acts will indeed turn the dominant society, the terrorism is actually a resignation of a lost cause. The white supremacists had been eviscerated by judicial fiat when the OKC bombing resulted as a flameout by losers who had failed to find popular support and finally lost financial viability as organizations. McVeigh and his ilk were obsolete, and spitting into the wind. They had no delusion that their act would win sympathy and invigorate their cause. They merely wanted to prove that they were not impotent. Their act earned it notoriety while simultaneously proving their virility and power, even as a flameout.

Likewise, the conservative Muslims who evaluate Europe can plainly see that it will NEVER become any hospitable ground for the Medieval customs that linger among Muslims in regard to Halal and repression of women. As they realize the futility, a few decided to strike out violently. Although they remain a tiny minority, they are the loudest voices when people die. I don't believe the suicide bombers in Paris believed they would usher in Islamic rule, only prove that they were not impotent in power.

 

[kallipolis]

Our experience over many years with other terrorist organisations indicates that it only takes a few fanatics to create chaos, and mayhem. No matter how efficient the security services, and police there are those terrorists who will sacrifice their lives to further the agenda of their leaders, living safely in the Middle East. We may expect further massacres.