Explosions, shootings reported in central Paris

[SLOPPYSECONDS]

^ooh lot a world a do eons ago ans still do
_wot all tem high pay folkees finga ons a pulse planet sellin teys titles a fancys world ova do all day?_
get easy money

tinku

 

[xbuzzerx]

To look at this objectively is no doubt difficult for either side, right or wrong we are where we are, where do we go from here?
If Nato. forces attack in retaliation it enforces the message that is used to recruit future terrorists. However, repercussions seem necessary.
There has been a long standing policy of not negotiating with terrorist, Muslim groups, that has not worked too well.
I think that trying to win over their youth and bring them in to modern times might be a good start.

Young people in Iran have said a million times that it is largely fear of western military violence that allows extremists like the ones who control their government to have any influence at all.

Young Persians want jeans and med school educations.

So ask yourself what is contributing to the problem and what isn't.

 

[ChickenGuy]

Back one moment to the current criminal investigation:

On a totally separate point, I've just realised something....

There is currently a massive manhunt underway in France for someone. His name and mugshot has been released to the media....

The French investigators have said there were 7 bodies of suicide bombers at the scenes, but on the ISIS claim of responsibility message, they said that 8 glorious martyrs conducted the operation....

So one of the terrorists has gone rogue here! He escaped in the black car and abandoned it and he has committed the ultimate dishonour! He has NOT blown himself up!

All the rest did - three at the stadium, one in a street in eastern Paris, three at the concert hall (although one was apparently shot dead by police)

Did one of the terrorists bottle it and refuse to join his comrades in the hereafter?

His name is Salah Abdeslam. Most wanted fugitive in French history?

French authorities are now looking for another person directly involved in the attacks. The suspicion being that based on multiple eyewitness accounts, there were three attackers in the roving black car - Salah Abdeslam (now on the run) his brother Brahim Abdeslam (who blew himself up on a street in eastern Paris) and this new as-yet-unnamed individual.

I'm still wondering about the discrepancy in numbers. I go back to the pre-prepared ISIS statement describing eight bombers - and yet only seven did. Someone here has disobeyed his orders! It's surely Salah. His own brother was with him in the car and *he* blew himself up, so why not *him*?

And another thing that puzzles me:

There were two black cars recovered in different suburbs of Paris, each with Kalashnikov rifles inside. This is in addition to the third black car used by the theatre attackers and left at the scene there. And another fourth black car was stopped at the Belgian border with three people (including Salah) inside but in a major blunder they let them through. This car was later found abandoned in Belgium. The other two with Salah have been arrested in Belgium, but were not directly involved in the attacks.

TL;DR

I'm getting really confused at how two escaped terrorists results in three abandoned black cars.

Unless they had a back-up car ready in Paris just in case, and after the attacks one attacker dropped the other off at the back-up car, and they then both drove separate cars and abandoned each, where one of them got into (or was picked up) by a third car to drive to the Belgian border.

That makes sense.

 

[Benvolio]

N n

Young people in Iran have said a million times that it is largely fear of western military violence that allows extremists like the ones who control their government to have any influence at all.

Young Persians want jeans and med school educations.

So ask yourself what is contributing to the problem and what isn't.

When did we threaten Iran with violence? Repressive regimes often stay in power by claiming the US is about to attack. No Korea for instance. It will not stop just because we pander to them.

 

[xbuzzerx]

N n
When did we threaten Iran with violence? Repressive regimes often stay in power by claiming the US is about to attack. No Korea for instance. It will not stop just because we pander to them.

Oh I dunno. I seem to recall something about a Republican Presidential candidate singing "bombbombbomb, bombomb Iran" while he was campaigning.

 

[Telstra]

And yet the largest underground Christian church in the world is in China.

Thats how abrahamic religious virus spread i supposed.

 

[otters]

When did we threaten Iran with violence?

Sanctions against a country aren't violence of some sort? Uh huh, no, it's just an exercise of … influence, for the benefit of the country, of course, no violence at all.

 

[rareboy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state 1948.

Your attempt to remind people points the blame at the USA and some of it's allies. I am sure that the latest victims of these had nothing to do with what led to the anger of these terrorists.

My point is that there was a time when the youth and others could be recruited by the church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
Today this would be impossible. Why? Because the church (meaning the body of believers) by in large no longer takes it's beliefs that seriously, people go through the motions but due to public education combined with secular humanism go no further than to attend.

There are exceptions of course, but they are just that, exceptions. To drive young Muslims in to the arms of fanatical fundamentalists by ostracizing them because of their faith only harms society.
The rest of the world needs to win over these young men, water down their faith and lead them in to secular humanism just as it has done to young Christians.

The Jews moving back to Palestine was already a matter of some concern in the earlier 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah

Please also go to the section'British Mandate in Palestine and read on from there. The post World War I period is where some of the seeds of the post world war II issues were sown. See also

Jewish immigration and Nazi propaganda contributed to the large-scale 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, a largely nationalist uprising directed at ending British rule. The head of the Jewish Agency, Ben-Gurion, responded to the Arab Revolt with a policy of "Havlagah"—self-restraint and a refusal to be provoked by Arab attacks in order to prevent polarization. The Etzel group broke off from the Haganah in opposition to this policy.

From the end of the second world war, with the US and other western countries protecting Israel at the cost of Palestine and Jordan, it led to armed conflict with Israel and its neighbours Egypt and Jordan.

As I wrote earlier, the main reason that bin Laden and al Quaeda attacked US interests is that the US maintained bases on Saudi soil to protect Israel.

Again I remind everyone.....the terrorists of today are part of an intricate unbroken tapestry of conflict. They did not just appear out of nowhere. But it does no good for westerners to get all defensive and try to confuse the reasons why things happen with blame. I could, if I had the time set out the unbroken chain of militant movements and terrorism in the middle east from the end of World War I to last week in France. At this point, it hardly matters what role France, England, the US, Russia(USSR) and a host of other minor western nations have played in events that have led to November 2015...suffice it to say that as we speak, a number of countries are continuing to bomb parts of Syria to desolation and I suspect that it will now raise the stakes considerably as to the type and severity of terrorist reprisal attacks that can be expected throughout Europe and North America.

But war is hell. And this is the type of war that we've all signed up for in an age where all countries are averse to becoming mired in another ground war like Bush created in Iraq.

 

[Telstra]

The Jews moving back to Palestine was already a matter of some concern in the earlier 20th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah

Please also go to the section'British Mandate in Palestine and read on from there. The post World War I period is where some of the seeds of the post world war II issues were sown. See also

From the end of the second world war, with the US and other western countries protecting Israel at the cost of Palestine and Jordan, it led to armed conflict with Israel and its neighbours Egypt and Jordan.

As I wrote earlier, the main reason that bin Laden and al Quaeda attacked US interests is that the US maintained bases on Saudi soil to protect Israel.

Again I remind everyone.....the terrorists of today are part of an intricate unbroken tapestry of conflict. They did not just appear out of nowhere. But it does no good for westerners to get all defensive and try to confuse the reasons why things happen with blame. I could, if I had the time set out the unbroken chain of militant movements and terrorism in the middle east from the end of World War I to last week in France. At this point, it hardly matters what role France, England, the US, Russia(USSR) and a host of other minor western nations have played in events that have led to November 2015...suffice it to say that as we speak, a number of countries are continuing to bomb parts of Syria to desolation and I suspect that it will now raise the stakes considerably as to the type and severity of terrorist reprisal attacks that can be expected throughout Europe and North America.

But war is hell. And this is the type of war that we've all signed up for in an age where all countries are averse to becoming mired in another ground war like Bush created in Iraq.

Sort of off topic again but relevant.
These extremists/terrorists are too young to know the history of these things.
I guess hate preaching is very effective for young minds.

 

[rareboy]

Who do you think teaches the young?

The people with memories and experience.

But many of these younger people have had the experience of seeing their families blown up by bombs, tortured, thrown in prison....you have to stop thinking about these radical islamists as having sprung out of thin air.

 

[Telstra]

Who do you think teaches the young?

The people with memories and experience.

But many of these younger people have had the experience of seeing their families blown up by bombs, tortured, thrown in prison....you have to stop thinking about these radical islamists as having sprung out of thin air.

Not sure if they had experience these things.
The Saudis who crashed the planes into towers had not experience hardship, most of the British extremists had not experience hardship, the bali bombers had not experience hardship .... so i'm not convince.

Religious preachers of hate are the main problem.
Islam has crossed the line when they tried to kill Salman Rushie in my opinion and things start getting worse and worse from there.

 

[mikey3000]

Who do you think teaches the young?

The people with memories and experience.

But many of these younger people have had the experience of seeing their families blown up by bombs, tortured, thrown in prison....you have to stop thinking about these radical islamists as having sprung out of thin air.

What about the kids from America, Canada, Australia and all other western countries who were persuaded to join ISIS? Home grown terrorists. What travesties have they witnessed?

 

[rareboy]

Do you remember when thousands of idealistic young people joined up to fight against Franco in Spain because of what they had read in the paper or heard on the radio? No? Didn't think so.

It takes almost nothing to motivate or radicalize disaffected, marginalized youth.

They are witnessing what is happening in the world through the lens of television and on-line reporting. They believe that they have an obligation to free Syria from Assad, or the Middle East form the US and Europe and Israel...who knows? It is probably different for each one of them.

There are probably any number of studies now that profile the Auslanders who flock to ISIS. I'm sure they are searchable on-line and worth reading in order to understand the situation more clearly.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure if they had experience these things.
The Saudis who crashed the planes into towers had not experience hardship, most of the British extremists had not experience hardship, the bali bombers had not experience hardship .... so i'm not convince.

Religious preachers of hate are the main problem.
Islam has crossed the line when they tried to kill Salman Rushie in my opinion and things start getting worse and worse from there.

See my reply above. Again...people keep looking for simple, one size fits all, answers. It is more complex than that.

 

[Telstra]

I know it is complex but "religions poisons everything" (Hitchens) is still a true statement.

 

[JPGhost]

Oh really?



Yes, your idea is dangerous and steeped in an ignorance of history. You even act like "forcing Japanese to prove their loyalty" by throwing them in concentration camps and taking away everything they owned was a not so bad thing.

Buzzer, stop putting words in my mouth..get a new hobby.^^

Like I guessed. No one has better idea in how handling muslims and Syrian immigrants problem..All talks and being defensive..
I feel sorry with those victim's family..they died in injustice.

 

[zoltanspawn]

No one has better idea in how handling muslims and Syrian immigrants problem

Oh, C'mon Josie. You proposed an extraordinary course of action.

The better idea is simply rejecting it.

Most of the Syrian emigrants are victims of violence. Most are women and children.

We have the capacity to do a little vetting.

How 'bout we show them some good old American compassion?

 

[xbuzzerx]

Buzzer, stop putting words in my mouth..get a new hobby.^^

Like I guessed. No one has better idea in how handling muslims and Syrian immigrants problem..All talks and being defensive..
I feel sorry with those victim's family..they died in injustice.

Perhaps because I do not believe in an en-masse "assume guilty until proven innocent" procedure that we have to invent and impose on an entire nationality of people.

You are the one who thinks we need this, why should I have to come up with a way to make an idea I don't agree with sensible?

 

[otters]

Most of the Syrian emigrants are victims of violence. Most are women and children.

[There's some inconsistency. According to my country's Federal Interior Ministry's statistics, less than 25% of the asylum seekers are female.]

 

[dpnice]

....................... Most are women and children.
.....................

[There's some inconsistency. According to my country's Federal Interior Ministry's statistics, less than 25% of the asylum seekers are female.]

This also seems inconsistent with the images shown on TV which show very few women amongst the mass of men arriving in Europe.

 

[NotHardUp1]

I know it is complex but "religions poisons everything" (Hitchens) is still a true statement.

Is Hitchens implying that the Soviet Union or China enjoyed Halcyon Days when they were atheistic states, or even that the conflicts they did engage in were driven by religion?

Did rulers of ancient Egypt, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Babylon, Japan, Greece, Rome, or India enter into war based upon religion or religious conflict?

Did the major wars of the 20th century erupt out of religious differences? WWI, WWII, Korea, the Cold War, Viet Nam?

More likely Hitchens was poisoned by religion that any proof the world has been.