For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by closet cases?

[Soilwork]

and how can someone's person choice to not come out of the closet going to change your life or make such a dramatic affect?

If you are out.. in all aspects of your life, people get to know you, people get to understand you, people support you and will side with you.

If people don't know any gay people, they're less likely to support anything.. yes, you can be in the closet and vote.. that's one..

if you're out, you can affect the way ALL your friends and neighbours and co-workers see you, and maybe that's 50 votes.

But it's ok.. once we get all those rights, you can send us a thank-you note.

 

[chilly_willy]

oh get over yourself already! you aren't the represenative for all gay people. what does a gay person have to do to be accepted by people like you? huh? do we have to wear a shirt that say "hey, i'm a fag!", or how about we just start off conversations with something like, "Hi, my name is Mike, I'm gay, how are you?", maybe we should just all shave our heads, get a motorcycle and then ride around picking on all those fags still in the closet.....yeah, that sounds like fun...

you're out, great, fan-fucking-tastic! but don't just assume that your situations are the same as everyone else's. not all of us live in a place where homosexuals are accepted or in a situation where being out is the best option for us. don't assume that just because some of us aren't "out" that we aren't doing what we can to help, cause we are.

where do you get off trying to belittle those of us who aren't out? huh? when we get bashed on because we aren't out, it sure as hell doesn't make it any easier to do so. if you can't respect the life choices of others, then you don't deserve the respect in return.

 

[Soilwork]

Dude... I don't wear a T-shirt that says "I'm a fag" and I don't say "Hi, I'm Jasun, and I'm gay, how are you?" I didn't ALWAYS live in a place that it was easy to be out, you know.

But my neighbours know that we're a couple, and so does my boss (Not exaclty fair now, but when I was the general manager of a warehouse in the 'burbs of Toronto a while back, it was a VERY big deal)

I have never suggested that everyone needs to be like me. Keep your hair and drive your car.. just be you.. always.

When I recently went to the hospital after my accident and was asked for a "Next of Kin", I gave them my Ex-BF's name and when they asked for his relationship to me I said "Husband".

See, we're still legally married in Canada, and he and i still share many finatial obligations to each other.. he's still considered part of my family as far as my parents and siblings go (I think they like him more than they like me), and so.. he's my next of kin. Besides, he's still a very good friend, and I know that he will carry out my wishes if I'm unable to.

Yeah, it would be great to list my brother, but if something happens to me, what's he going to do from jail?

anyway.. I don't mean to beliltte you, but in the end, you have to understand that hearing people give a laundry list of reasons that they can't come out when most of them seem to be kinda... unimportant and based more on worrying about what others might think of you.. well, we're gonna react.

 

[chilly_willy]

I guess there isn't an American culture either, as we're made up of many, many races, religions, and sexes?

Sure, be famous, gay, and closeted if you like, but don't drag your beard out in front of us. This isn't the 1950s.

that is a huge difference there...

yes the American culture is of many races, religions and sexes, but we all live in America! Homosexuality isn't localized like that. Homosexuality is not only of any race, religion and sexes, but it is also multi-national and multi-cultural (a.k.a. worldwide), it could be anyone in the world.

and so what if a famous person is gay, in the closet and has a "beard". its their life and its sad that some people take what others do in and with their lives so damn personally. Live your own life and worry about your own life and not what others do unless it has direct reprocussions on your life. Someone being in the closet isn't going to have a dramatic effect on your life (unless you are so absorbed in it that you let it, and thats just sad).

 

[Rockercub]

you are equating Rockercub. you are saying that the comparission to races is the same as the comparission of sexuality and it isn't. and yes there are defining characteristics for the different races. Those of African decent have dark complection, etc. In many cases, but not all, you can look and know what ancestry of race a person has. You can't just look at a person and know that they are gay (in most cases). you simply cannot compare a racial issue to that of a sexuality issue the way you are doing so.

Actually, no, I’m not equating. First of all, I brought up a particular issue – that of mixed race individuals passing for white – so your argument here is totally outside of the scope of my original statements. You might want to go back and actually read what I originally wrote. Let’s see, what did I start out with? Oh, yeah: “I'm surprised nobody has used the passing-for-white comparison.” So, are you saying that comparing two things is the same as equating them? Like if I compare an orange and a cantaloupe and say they’re similar because they’re both round and both fruit, what I’m actually saying is that they’re the same thing? Wow, I didn’t know that.

I live for me and mine, I don't live for you and yours.

Then why are you posting on a gay community board? You obviously don’t believe in the concept of community.

My decision to proclaim that I'm gay or not has as much bearing on your life as my decision to drink Coke over Pepsi so stop trying to make everyone's personal business universal.

I suppose that’s entirely possible, given that you only care about “you and yours.” For those of us who actually participate in the community at large, however, it’s a different ballgame. Soilwork got it right. When I came out at my old place of work, I changed at least 20 people’s perception of gays. And once these people saw how my ex, who was out of work at the time, couldn’t even get covered under my insurance, their opinion on gay marriage/civil unions changed as well. Furthermore, my coming out helped to get protections for gays written specifically into the company’s policy handbook, which made the company a safer place for all of its gay employees (not just the ones in California). All this from the simple act of coming out in just one area of my life.

 

[Soilwork]

I suppose that’s entirely possible, given that you only care about “you and yours.” For those of us who actually participate in the community at large, however, it’s a different ballgame. Soilwork got it right. When I came out at my old place of work, I changed at least 20 people’s perception of gays. And once these people saw how my ex, who was out of work at the time, couldn’t even get covered under my insurance, their opinion on gay marriage/civil unions changed as well. Furthermore, my coming out helped to get protections for gays written specifically into the company’s policy handbook, which made the company a safer place for all of its gay employees (not just the ones in California). All this from the simple act of coming out in just one area of my life.

Good for you, man.

This is the arguement I've been making for years. It's easier to hate us if you can't see us. The moment that we make ourselves more visible, we're suddenly real people with real emotions and real lives.

I shudder to think how many times these "Me and Mine" types have laughed along with some homophobic joke at work or among their friends. Instead of standing up for themselves, they just feed the hate.

Pathetic, really.

 

[chilly_willy]

make ourselves more visible? what the fuck is that supposed to mean? I'll go ahead and put in my order for that shirt that just says "I'm a fag" in big letters across the front...

rockercub, you cannot compare a race issue to that of a sexuality issue. they have no bearing on one another so why even bring it up? gee, do ya think that is why no one has brought it up?

if you can't respect the choices of others, then how the hell can you expect respect to be given to you?

i think some people need a reality check... lets drop them off in a small midwest or southern town full of people who just absolutely hate gays. then let them be out and proud there... then maybe you'll understand why and how it can be difficult to come out... cause when you do you get bashed...and when you don't you can come here and get bashed by other gays for not coming out.

if you don't approve of the choices we've had to make in order to live a happy life, then pucker up, i know a place you can kiss...

 

[chilly_willy]

Remember, not everyone's situation is the same or as easy as yours may be or may have been. Just like with everything else in life, sometimes you just have to make certain choices in your life in order to be happy. If being in the closet is a choice that has helped to give you a happy life, then so be it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That choice isn't sad, pathetic, ruining your life or anothers, its your choice to make, its your choice to live with and its your life you are living. Do what you have to do to take care of yourself, your family, etc and be happy...

IMHO, its sad and pathetic that others worry so much about the lives and choices of others that they get so worked up and offended.

 

[Soilwork]

make ourselves more visible? what the fuck is that supposed to mean? I'll go ahead and put in my order for that shirt that just says "I'm a fag" in big letters across the front...

And there we go with this "T-shirt" thing. Didn't we already deal with this?

I don't wear a "I'm a fag" T-shirt" (ok.. I HAVE one... but it was a gag gift that i wore ONCE to a Judas Priest concert. Most people jus looked and giggled and gave me a "thumbs-up"), but I don't ever deny who I am.

My neighbours know who my BF is, and when i had a party for the Gay Sporrtbikers of Southern California in my courtyard last year, I told my neighbours that it was a Pride Day party for the Gay Sportbikers of Southen California. I didn't pretend it was my bowling team.

You know.. go ahead and make yur choices.. but don't expect everyone to jsut skip down the street saying "Great.. another one pretending not to be one of us and probably laughing at the homophobic jokes at work".

Someone else to whine about how hard it is to be in the closet, when they themselves chose to live in a small town.

you know, as I've said many times before, when you shit in your own pants, you have to walk home in them.

 

[chilly_willy]

And there we go with this "T-shirt" thing. Didn't we already deal with this?

I don't wear a "I'm a fag" T-shirt" (ok.. I HAVE one... but it was a gag gift that i wore ONCE to a Judas Priest concert. Most people jus looked and giggled and gave me a "thumbs-up"), but I don't ever deny who I am.

My neighbours know who my BF is, and when i had a party for the Gay Sporrtbikers of Southern California in my courtyard last year, I told my neighbours that it was a Pride Day party for the Gay Sportbikers of Southen California. I didn't pretend it was my bowling team.

You know.. go ahead and make yur choices.. but don't expect everyone to jsut skip down the street saying "Great.. another one pretending not to be one of us and probably laughing at the homophobic jokes at work".

Someone else to whine about how hard it is to be in the closet, when they themselves chose to live in a small town.

you know, as I've said many times before, when you shit in your own pants, you have to walk home in them.

here's an idea for ya, try not labeling all of us like that! you've alread got your mind made up that just because we aren't out that we are all just pretending and all that shit. get over yourself already!!! not everyone has a good job, mommy and daddy supporting them, or the means to move to a city where it is easier to come out!! you know, karma is a bitch!

 

[sb]

not everyone has a good job, mommy and daddy supporting them, or the means to move to a city where it is easier to come out!!

I have friends who have had to go through really difficult times because they chose to live honestly and I find it quite offensive that you could suggest that the people who have come out have only done it because their lives are so much easier than everyone else's. Why the hell is your life so much harder than everyone else's?...

 

[chilly_willy]

I have friends who have had to go through really difficult times because they chose to live honestly and I find it quite offensive that you could suggest that the people who have come out have only done it because their lives are so much easier than everyone else's. Why the hell is your life so much harder than everyone else's?...

thats just bs and you know it.

no one is saying that their life is any better or worse than anyone else's.

you know, its sad and pathetic to get so worked up over someone else's choice.

getting mad at someone for staying in the closet is a waste of time cause you bitching, whining and moaning that they won't come out isn't going to do any good or make them come out any sooner. so get over it

 

[Soilwork]

here's an idea for ya, try not labeling all of us like that! you've alread got your mind made up that just because we aren't out that we are all just pretending and all that shit. get over yourself already!!! not everyone has a good job, mommy and daddy supporting them, or the means to move to a city where it is easier to come out!! you know, karma is a bitch!

What is it with this "Get Over yourself" shit?

why is that the catch-all phrase for people defending themselves when they realize they've made a bad choice?

anyhoo...

when someone tells a homophobic joke at work.. do you laugh? do you stand up for yourself?

And if you think my coming out was easy... well, it wasn't.

But like sb said.. those in the closet are always saying it's someone else's fault.

Just yesterday, I had someone PM me and say "It's gay guys like you that make gay guy like me stay in the closet". And no.. it's his own inability to live life honestly with ANYONE that makes him stay in the closet.

 

[chilly_willy]

just because someone is in the closet doesn't mean that they aren't being honest.

and i haven't realized any mistake or bad choice because i haven't done so.

and we aren't always saying its someone else's fault, there you go generalizing again.

and i would agree with that PM. if you are just going to sit there and talk shit on everyone who is in the closet, then yes, you are making it that much harder.

and if you had a hard time coming out, they why the fuck won't you let others do it their own way, on their own terms and in their own time. let them do it when they are ready to. don't sit there and talk down to them like you are so much better than they are cause you are out.

 

[Soilwork]

You forgot one, chilly.

when someone tells a homophobic joke at work.. do you laugh? do you stand up for yourself?

 

[Rockercub]

rockercub, you cannot compare a race issue to that of a sexuality issue.

Um, yes, you can compare race and sexuality. You can compare any two things. I can compare a piece of string to the moon. The question is then, are they similar or different and to what extent? Are you really having this much trouble with the concept?

they have no bearing on one another so why even bring it up?

Well, actually I do feel that at least gay issues and black issues have a bearing on one another since the same group is discriminating against both. But that wasn’t my point. What I presented was called an “analogy.” Here I’ll give you a definition so you don’t have to look it up: “1. Similarity in some respects between things otherwise dissimilar; 2. A comparison based on such similarity.” Analogies can be used to place an idea in a more familiar context in order to shed some light on it. This is what I was attempting to do. You might disagree with my analogy, but you haven’t even really addressed it. Apparently, you have yet to understand the meaning of my statements at all.

if you can't respect the choices of others, then how the hell can you expect respect to be given to you?

The question I was asked by this thread was, do closeted people bug you? Not, do you respect the choices of others? You can do whatever the hell you want, but I certainly have the right to disagree with it. And what really sucks is that when I’m given a forum to express my opinion on the matter, some overly defensive guy jumps in with: “Kiss my ass if you don’t respect my choices!” See, what’s really going on here is not that I’m not respecting your choices, but that you’re not respecting my opinions.

i think some people need a reality check... lets drop them off in a small midwest or southern town full of people who just absolutely hate gays. then let them be out and proud there... then maybe you'll understand why and how it can be difficult to come out... cause when you do you get bashed...and when you don't you can come here and get bashed by other gays for not coming out.

This wasn’t directed at me, but I’ll point out that I was only talking about people who stay in the closet over issues of comfort, not issues of safety or well-being. Of course you should stay in the closet if being out will get you bashed or killed. I’ll even support someone who’s in the closet for fear of their job in a poor economic climate. But if you’re in the closet because you don’t want people to look at you funny, that’s when I have the problem.

Remember, not everyone's situation is the same or as easy as yours may be or may have been. Just like with everything else in life, sometimes you just have to make certain choices in your life in order to be happy. If being in the closet is a choice that has helped to give you a happy life, then so be it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. That choice isn't sad, pathetic, ruining your life or anothers, its your choice to make, its your choice to live with and its your life you are living. Do what you have to do to take care of yourself, your family, etc and be happy.

But sometimes your personal happiness isn’t the be-all-end-all of existence. Sometimes you set aside your personal happiness for the happiness of others. Wouldn’t you offer your mother your own coat on a cold night? Shoot, dude, I’d offer you my coat on a cold night, even though I don’t know you and even given our disagreement here.

IMHO, its sad and pathetic that others worry so much about the lives and choices of others that they get so worked up and offended.

IMHO, you’re the one who seems to be all worked up and offended over other people’s opinions, way out of proportion to what’s actually being said. I honestly have to wonder whether it’s because a part of you agrees with some of what we’re saying. Personally, I think this thread is very well balanced with the bashing reserved for married gays who screw around on their wives.

 

[Rockercub]

HOWEVER-- Even if there were no social issues or any problems whatsoever regarding homosexuality, it's still a very personal, private thing.

But the reason homosexuality is a personal and private thing is because there are social issues surrounding it. If there were no social issues regarding homosexuality, then it would be the same as heterosexuality, which is hardly considered personal or private. Straight people date out in the open, get married out in the open, and display affection out in the open. Sure, there are a few straight people who don't believe in public displays of affection, but I'll bet you even those people wouldn't have a problem with pictures of their loved ones on their desks at work. So, to some extent, if you maintain that homosexuality should be a personal and private thing, you're agreeing with the social stigma.

I wonder how those who think that all gays should totally out and open would feel if someone barged into their house and began going through their financial papers and medical records.

Well, it's not a very good analogy – having someone barge into your house is more akin to having someone out you, not outing yourself. Personally, if I thought my financial or medical records would somehow help someone out (legitimately, that is), I'd be glad to offer them up.

 

[chilly_willy]

OK... just because someone is in the closet, it doesn't mean that they are pretending to be anything other than themselves! The fact that I am gay is not the world's business!!

Rockercub and Soilwork,
you two have made it abundantly clear that you have to be gay your way or the highway. fuck that. Soilwork, you cry and rant and rave about respect and all that shit. People like you aren't showing any other gays, especially those in the closet any respect for their personal choices that they have had to make in their lives. Not everyone has the opportunities or choices that you have or have had. Not everyone is either stable or ready emotionally for that kind of change in their lives. Believe it or not, some people are perfectly happy with their lives in the closet and no one has the fucking right to tell them anything otherwise.

Why the hell does it matter whether or not when you walk down the street if you know this person or that person is gay or not? By the shit that has been said, and the crap that I have personally experienced, because I look "straight", talk "straight", walk "straight" (whatever all that means), I must be pretending to be gay and don't want others to know. That just isn't the case. I am fine with others knowing and I will tell them when I ask, but I am not going to go out there and advertise my life to the world. Why? Because it is no one else's business!

So, if I am in the closet, I am being dishonest? To whom? As long as when asked I'm not denying it, who am I being dishonest to? And before someone brings it up, I'm not being dishonest to myself, I know I'm gay and not denying that.

 

[chilly_willy]

But the reason homosexuality is a personal and private thing is because there are social issues surrounding it. If there were no social issues regarding homosexuality, then it would be the same as heterosexuality, which is hardly considered personal or private. Straight people date out in the open, get married out in the open, and display affection out in the open. Sure, there are a few straight people who don't believe in public displays of affection, but I'll bet you even those people wouldn't have a problem with pictures of their loved ones on their desks at work. So, to some extent, if you maintain that homosexuality should be a personal and private thing, you're agreeing with the social stigma.



Well, it's not a very good analogy – having someone barge into your house is more akin to having someone out you, not outing yourself. Personally, if I thought my financial or medical records would somehow help someone out (legitimately, that is), I'd be glad to offer them up.

do you smell that? take a big wiff...

the point about personal privacy is a personal choice. no one is saying that homosexuality should be a personal and private thing, rather that it is one's choice and one's right to make it so.

 

[pausanias_usa]

Um . . . isn't this supposed to be a "no flame" zone?