For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by closet cases?

[JOHN B]

Being gay or bisexual is more than just ^^^"sexual habits", or what we do in the bedroom. You can be gay or bisexual without "doing" the act. It is a Lifestyle...a way of viewing the world and other people. In my days I have known people who accepted, to an extent, that they were bisexual----but because of the reigious or what they considered "moral" upbringing, decided not to pursue that lifestyle physically, but did have gay/bi friends. Yea, it sounds warped to me too, and it still stings of denial, but that is what worked for them, and at least they WERE out.
What I am trying to say (and I realize I kinda strayed) is that staying in the closet requires SO much wasted energy---either trying to be something you are not, or constantly (mentally) looking "over your shoulder" wondering if anyone might find out. You don't have to brag about it to be out. By coming out, you make it a non-issue. I am out at work, but the subject doesn't come up every day. I am out to my family and the subject NEVER comes up--LOL. I don't expect people to "take on the weight of the gay world" on thier shoulders, just take the weight of hiding, OFF of THEIRS. It's there whether you realize it or not.

 

[Blacksheep]

I also have a mental illness, I treat my sexuality in much the same way in that I don't divulge the information to people in real life. I already have enough trouble in my life trying to gain acceptance by putting myself among people that I really don't want anyone to be able to form preconceived notions of what or who I am based solely on my sexuality or my mental illness.
I'm ashamed of neither, nor would I necessarily deny my sexuality if asked (although I might the mental illness as most people have a misconstrued idea of what it is and I'm still getting properly diagnosed), it's just that it really is my business and my business only. I'm not looking over my shoulder, I'm just a private person with nothing worth telling at the moment. Once i have a guy the same thing will apply, unless there is a reason to mention him I just couldn't see the point of bringing it up. To me straight people don't need to introduce themselves as straight so I don't as bi/gay.

 

[Just_Believe18]

Unless they're hurting someone else, they have a right to keep their sexuality confidential. It's no one's business.

 

[probeteam1]

You know, I thought I had already weighed in on this one, but apparently I have not. I've already voted "no," but I feel that in many ways the question is just too simple. What do you mean by "closeted," for example? And what do you mean by "bothered?"

I don't consider closeted gay men to be any less worthy of life or happiness or respect than myself, but I think I'd have a hard time holding up a relationship with a guy who's in the closet, especially if he has a wife or girlfriend who's not cool with the whole idea. But that's in fact a separate matter. First, there's the issue of cheating (but hey, if she doesn't mind then neither do I) and second there's the matter of possibly using people. Even were he single, I think I might have a problem with any guy willing to fuck me but not willing to be seen with me.

On the other hand, do I mind a guy who has never disclosed his sexuality and refuses to answer when asked? No. Unless I intend to date him, it's not my business who he finds attractive. So a much simpler question to ask would be "Would you like to have dinner some time?" Or I'm actively trying to set him (or someone else) up on a date. In which case I'm meddling anyway, and strictly speaking it's still not my business.

Do I mind the guy who's always making gay jokes and trashing the queers to distract himself from how long his gaze lingers on his neighbor's johnson at the gym? Yeah, but it's his behavior that bothers me, not its cause. If I knew the cause, then the hypocrisy of it would also bother me, but not the basic fact that he's in the closet.

There are a few pet peeves I might have. If a closeted lesbian still refers to her partner of three years as her "roommate," I might feel mildly offended because she thinks I'm still fooled by the charade and that's possibly a little insulting. There was a guy I knew in High School who changed his sexual identity almost as often as he changed socks, and that kinda bothered me, but not so much because he kept jumping out of the closet and back in, as that he expected the rest of us to come along for the ride.

But my opinion on guys who just don't or haven't come out remains neutral. I remained in the closet until I was halfway through college, and it's worth noting that of all the gay guys I grew up with, I think I'm the only one who doesn't have a story about getting my ass kicked for it. These days I'm out at work and at home, but there are still a few members of my family we've decided (that is, my more immediate family decided a s group) ought to remain in the dark as a matter of convenience until I bring home a man I think I might keep to meet the relatives.

I'm fully aware of the price many gay and bi individuals paid for coming out, and I am thankful that I did not have to pay it.

Even so, sometimes it's a fight. Among my friends, my sexuality is more often the butt of jokes than that of others and when we weer all younger and stupider a few of us even came to blows on the matter. Some of my friends and family used to think being gay made me somehow frail or at-risk, and do weird (occasionally stupid) things to "protect" me. Whether they realized it or not, they respected me less.

Sometimes I get tired of it, and I'm certain I'm getting a much lighter treatment than some of the other people here. I don't really miss being in the closet, but I can see how someone who's not me could still like it there.

What does that theoretical closeted guy owe me anyway? Nothing, really. Or at least no more than any other human being. And by staying in the closet he loses from me pretty much the same things I would gain from him (the security of a larger queer community, a friendlier environment, and maybe a potential date) so it more or less evens out in the end. And besides, you don't need to be "out" to support the gay cause. Back when I was still in the closet, I left my old church after the pastor (whom I had previously respected) went off on a homophobic rant, and so did my brother (who's straight) - and I made it known that we wouldn't be back so long as that guy was delivering sermons.

 

[probeteam1]

Because it DOES have something to do with ME/US. AS I said before, hiding perpetuates "bad" or "wrong".

The way I look at it, it's more that hiding does nothing to negate the idea that being gay or bi is "bad" or "wrong". Staying in the closet, in itself, does nothing to further that idea except that it provides no evidence or argument to the contrary.

We don't need to loath ourselves when so many others (though it is getting less over time) already look down on us.

If it were that simple, my life would be so much easier. You can't argue away self-loathing and homophobia that easily. What people know and what they feel are often very different things.

If you are not living at home, are over 18, and are not financially dependent on others (family, etc...) then you need to build up the courage and BE YOURSELF!

Because of course the risk of getting your ass kicked by some random moron should never be a factor.

The only way to gain acceptance so that younger generations don't have to go thru this dilemma is to make everyone realize that we are everywhere, and JUST as good and equal as THEY are.

At what point did this become about a responsibility to the younger generation? Why would I want to put my neck out for a bunch of kids I don't know, and would probably dislike if I met them? Why would anyone? I didn't come out because I felt the need to stand bi my gay brethren in the Good Fight (I supported gay rights while I was in the closet, too); I came out because I wanted to live honestly and openly and to end a pretense that had become too confining. People should come out for themselves, not for what other people want or need from them. Otherwise, how much different is it from being in the closet? All you're doing then is choosing which pressure to give in to, and letting other people tell you what to be and how to be it.

(Off-topic)
Besides, the only way acceptance of gay people is going to come from gay people is if everyone suddenly becomes gay. If straight people are going to accept us, it's going to be because (rather redundantly) straight people accept us. If you want to make things better for the younger generations, have your brothers and sisters and friends (and other relations) raise their kids to be accepting. Or raise your own kids that way, if you happen to have them.
(/Off-topic)

 

[ongjay2002]

Sorry, this one touches a nerve with me.

While I will respect the choice of each individual with regard to any public declaration of his sexuality (hey, it's none of my damn business, anyway), I don't have a helluva lotta respect for that small number of affluent guys who intentionally live a double life -- being "decently" married (to a woman) with kids, and at the same time screwing strangers at the book store/video store, highway rest areas, or dropping into a bar for a fast hookup. They're the guys who'll carry a fresh change of clothes in a gym bag in the trunk of their car, with which to change into (in the garage) when they come home late from a "meeting". They're the guys who'll sell their soul (and their dick) for a nice house in a gated community, membership at an exclusive golf club, and a "respected" position in the social community.

They're lying to everyone, and respectable to no one.

That's a good point you have there. Few years back, that thought troubled me. How would I live my life as a closeted gay man trying to live a double life. But then I came to point where I told myself that I would not live that life and I would not use other people to cover me up. I tried the whole hetero thing but it just didn't work.

I'm not 100% out but some friends know. I've yet to come out to my folks which is what would really matters to me most. Don't care bout what others might think. I just want to be able to get to a point where I no longer have to hide anything from them.

Anyway, I'm not bothered by closeted guys. After all, I am partly in the closet. There is a perfect time for everything. But if we must stay inside, let us not use other people to protect our identities. There are other ways of getting by.

 

[JOHN B]

Because of course the risk of getting your ass kicked by some random moron should never be a factor.At what point did this become about a responsibility to the younger generation? Why would I want to put my neck out for a bunch of kids I don't know, and would probably dislike if I met them? Why would anyone? I didn't come out because I felt the need to stand bi my gay brethren in the Good Fight (I supported gay rights while I was in the closet, too); I came out because I wanted to live honestly and openly and to end a pretense that had become too confining. People should come out for themselves, not for what other people want or need from them. Otherwise, how much different is it from being in the closet? All you're doing then is choosing which pressure to give in to, and letting other people tell you what to be and how to be it.

LOL--about the ass kick remark, I know sarcasm when I see it! There is a difference between being out, and braging it to every stranger on the street. No, I'm not going to push the fact that I am gay into the face of someone who might try to beat it out of me (and not in a GOOD way). I am out at work and it is usually a month or two before someone who is newly hired gets wind of the fact that I am gay.

And about coming out helping future generations, and it "not being your problem"-----I'm sorry, but if it weren't for the gay granddaddies out there who pushed for THEIR rights it would still be illegal for a gay bar to even EXIST let alone YOU being able to go to one. YES, sitting in a gay bar at one time got you JAIL time. We were not allowed to be served in restaurants. You today would not be able to go to a Denny's or some other all nite place, after a nite at the bar, and be able to get an early morning breakfast if they saw you and your group of friends as "those kind". So, you owe a lot to them, and in turn you should realize that your actions (or inactions) will affect other gay members down the road.

NO, I am not a follower of ACT UP and other gay radical groups, but just feel that if everone would be themselves and stop trying to follow/be accepted by the majority, we would all realize that there IS no real majority.

 

[probeteam1]

LOL--about the ass kick remark, I know sarcasm when I see it! There is a difference between being out, and braging it to every stranger on the street. No, I'm not going to push the fact that I am gay into the face of someone who might try to beat it out of me (and not in a GOOD way). I am out at work and it is usually a month or two before someone who is newly hired gets wind of the fact that I am gay.

We all draw the lines in different places. I just don't stand in judgment of the people who draw them in different places.

And about coming out helping future generations, and it "not being your problem"-----I'm sorry, but if it weren't for the gay granddaddies out there who pushed for THEIR rights it would still be illegal for a gay bar to even EXIST let alone YOU being able to go to one. YES, sitting in a gay bar at one time got you JAIL time. We were not allowed to be served in restaurants. You today would not be able to go to a Denny's or some other all nite place, after a nite at the bar, and be able to get an early morning breakfast if they saw you and your group of friends as "those kind". So, you owe a lot to them, and in turn you should realize that your actions (or inactions) will affect other gay members down the road.

I am not ignorant of these facts. I just don't think they necessarily owed it to me (or my generation) to win those rights for us. I'm glad they did, but I take it as a gift, not as my due. While the rights themselves may be our due (that's what "right" means, after all), the gay people who opposed them were no less obligated to do so than the straight people of the time. You don't have to be gay and out to support gay rights. And if I owed anyone anything for that favor, it would be those "gay granddaddies," the ones who did me the favor in the first place.

Also, I'm not sure what you're telling me here. You seem to imply that I'm taking advantage of some privileges here without pulling my weight. I don't really go to gay bars very often, and only rarely set off "gaydar," so I can safely say that if I were entirely uninterested in the larger injustice, I could give those rights up in exchange for not having to bother. I do care, but I don't believe that the only two options are "come out, or shirk your responsibilities to your fellow gay/bi/et cetera people." This argument seems based on the assumption that coming out of the closet is the best and only thing one can do to further that struggle, and I see no reason that this should be the case.

 

[-Ryan-]

nope, not offended.

let them live their life the way they want to.

 

[dalton41]

Whether a person is out or not does not bother me. I'm out as bi to only a few people who are close to me. It's my life and I am comfortable with it. I don't have the need to let the world know about my sexuality and I could care less about theirs.

 

[nihilis]

I just want to play devil's advocate here:

How would you feel if you were black in the Jim Crow south and someone of mixed race who passed for white got a high paying job by not announcing his racial background? I think my first reaction would be that this person was a sell-out. However, if he used his new job and money to support the black community in some fashion, I would feel differently, so I guess it depends quite a bit on the person's actions.

Ah, so being a sellout is unacceptable, but being a sellout and a hypocrite is fine, as long as it benefits "the community"? That's one way of thinking I suppose.

I suppose that’s entirely possible, given that you only care about “you and yours.” For those of us who actually participate in the community at large, however, it’s a different ballgame. Soilwork got it right. When I came out at my old place of work, I changed at least 20 people’s perception of gays. And once these people saw how my ex, who was out of work at the time, couldn’t even get covered under my insurance, their opinion on gay marriage/civil unions changed as well. Furthermore, my coming out helped to get protections for gays written specifically into the company’s policy handbook, which made the company a safer place for all of its gay employees (not just the ones in California). All this from the simple act of coming out in just one area of my life.

I'm glad so many good things came about from your coming out. It was really fortunate for you and other gays at your place of business as well.

What strikes me as funny, though, is that the underlying reasons for your desire to get people out of the closet is to reap benefits that ultimately benefit you. Yet you're shitting on people with the "me and mine" attitude as being selfish. I'd call it two sides of the same coin.

I shudder to think how many times these "Me and Mine" types have laughed along with some homophobic joke at work or among their friends. Instead of standing up for themselves, they just feed the hate.

But getting offended by people in your "community" because they don't live their lives according to the way you see the world doesn't feed the hate at all. I wonder if there are other similar situations where people spread hatred by getting offended by the way other people "choose" to live their lives?

Like I've said in other posts, we are our own worst enemies.

You just made my point.

Just as a side note, I'm sure there are just as many closet cases who get offended by homophobia and do their best to change people's minds about homosexuality while still being in the closet. Just as there are plenty of straight people who don't need their mind's changed at all because they're decent, loving people. Not every situation is so black and white (as it were) and not everything exists in such extremes.

No man is an island.

Neither is he everyman. Situations, like people, are different.

 

[innocentbychoice]

My answer is no. I'm not offended or upset by it BUT hanging out with someone who is repressed can be a pain in the ass when you have to deal with all their insecurities and fears about things that you know are not like they see them.

 

[y2kbax]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

I guess I'm in the "depends2 category.

I'm certainly not bothered or offended by closeted people in general (unless they are actively homophobic), just a little sad for them. To me, coming out was once unimaginable, and I was eventually thrown out of my parents home (temporarily). But now, i still have most of the same friends. They (I hope) love me for who I truly am. And my parents (whom I would have died rather than them find out) love my partner like another son. I have another friend who is married with children, yet openly gay. So the fear many people feel isn't always justified.

HOWEVER once people put there lives in the spotlight, then they have, if not a duty, then at least an obligation to be honest about themselves. It saddens me that there are constant arguments on the Internet Movie Database when "Is he gay?" posts are made. I think there is still a desperate need for gay role models, especially of the non stereo typical, non camp kind (no offense meant, but it just isn't the majority of us). It does sicken me when celebrities, who are protected to a large degree, they don't have to live in rough neighborhoods at least, deny young gay people, needlessly I believe, of positive role models. How would the acceptance of Black people have advanced if Sidney Poitier, Denzel Washington etc have pretended not to be black somehow?

On a side, yet related, note, I find the gay community themselves to be strange in their choices of heroes. Often its people who do little for us but fit the scene who are lauded (I'm thinking Divas here); and Elton John, who spent decades pretending to be straight is now a hero for coming out when it couldn't possibly harm him; yet his onetime colleague Tom Robinson, active in public and grass roots causes since the early 70s, and who actually got Glad To Be Gay on the radio and UK charts in 1978 is shunned, partly because he now lives with a woman and kids, while still vocally expressing to anyone who will listen that he IS GAY. Surely we are first and foremost about freedom, about an escape from pigeon holes. (BTW TR wrote Never Going To Fall In Love (Again) with Elton; both recorded it separately, but hero Elton changed the object of his affection to "she", despite it making no sense with the rest of the lyric - "Every cat I meet's a Tom".

But to the original question, I just feel sad for people stuck in the closet. I truly believe that things that seem impossible often aren't. We have one life and I'd like to see us all live it to the full (not that I do, but at least I am who I am). As to those in public life, if they gain from celebrity then I do think they owe something in return, and honesty seems like a good place to start - they should consider the number of lives they could change, as they have chosen to benefit from public affection.

To anyone reading this who is closeted - I do understand. I hope you might consider that your position might not be quite how you think it is. Its up to you to decide how you want to live your life. I would suggest that one of dishonest, especially to yourself, isn't likely to make you happiest, but I respect your choices and wish you only happiness.

 

[mishima75]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

i'm a child of signorile, so I have big problems with closet. not so much the young guy who stays in the closet until he can move out and get a job and a life of his own, but those who remain in the closet and use the closet - people like roy cohn or any of the currently sitting republican senators with wide stances.
hte public toilet beats wherei used to live were mostly frequented by guys with baby seats in the back of their cars. while anonymous sex can serve a productive function, especially when it's to do with working class guys, it's a different thing when you're partaking in that and then engaging in political or social acts that discriminate against gays.
so I guess it's not so much the closet or guys who are in the closet but hypocrites who occupy public spaces opposite to their 'private' activities.
to paraphrase signorile though, I think the milman, the professor, the plumber and the politician should all come out until it no longer matters who is gay or not, and until kids are no longer shot, bullied, bashed or ostracised for being queer.

and for that we also have to give thanks to the flaming faggots, the ones who can't pass, for they're the ones that cop the shit but give us a space to come out as well

 

[Echoes]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

it doesn't bother me at all, it's up to every person and I respect that, but I barely put myself in a relationship with someone who is not out, at least with their family you know? for me it doesn't work if you have to be hiding yourself from the world. Nevertheless if he is wiling to come out is another story, I would support him of course.

 

[Caramelslice]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

MY ISSUES ARE:

A) THOSE MEN WHO GET MARRIED AND KNOW FROM THE GET GO THAT THEY ARE THAT WAY INCLINED AND DO NOT TELL THEIR WIVES.- ACT UPON GAY/BI URGES
B) THOSE THAT HAVE DISCOVERED DURING THE MARRIAGE THAT THEY ARE GAY/BI AND DON'T TELL THEIR WIVES WHILST ACTING OUT GAY ACTIVITY

No amount of personal torment makes up for both of the above.

THE BELOW IS WHAT A WOMAN POSTED WHEN SHE DISCOVERED HER HUSBAND'S SECRET (VERY PAINFUL)

I have been married for almost 19 yrs to a amazing man.We have 4
children,and a great life together.3 months ago I found out he was
bisexual,I was the one who asked him about it.In April the day before
Easter his cell phone rang while he was out running.I looked at his
tex( we had no secrets) I was confused because it was from a man and
it said he loved MY HUSBAND and couldn't wait to see him.I sat on our
bed and thought I was going to pass out,my whole body was shaking.I
looked at other tex and there were MORE man!!!!!
> I waited 3 weeks to speak to him about this because his father was
dying all in the middle of this.I new he was in therapy because back
in Feb he told me,but never told me the whole story.I just thought he
was depressed and we would work on it together.He told me he was not
sure what was wrong but he new he loved me and our marriage was #1
with him.He had not been right for about 1 year and I new something
was wrong,and I was supportive to him.I thought all last summer he
was having a mid life crises and I gave him room to do this to "find
himself" I new he would never cheat on me,so I didnt worry.Well,this
all stated last summer,I was very wrong.
> His Father passed away and it was so hard for all of us.He was like
another father to our children they live right next to us.We have a
very close family.So,I could not ask him about this with all this
going on.I didnt sleep or eat I felt like I was loosing my mind.But I
new I had to be Strong of him and the kids.At my Father in laws wake
I saw my husband talking to a man I didnt know.I thought could he be
one of them? To this day I dont know how I did it but I walked right
up and kissed my husband and I new right away he was one of them.The
guy was breaking out in hives!!! I introduced myself as the
WIFE!!!,and then asked him his name.Then I new this was the man who
tex my husband and told him he loved him!!!.I thought I was going to
pass out,the room was spinning,but I new I had to keep it together I
was at my father in laws wake and I was in a rm with about 300 other
people.
> Well I waited about another week and spoke to him one night.He told
me everything,it was hard.We layed in bed holding each other and we
did alot of crying.So,it has been 3 months and it is not easy.We both
are in therapy and in group therapy and it helps.He is not with the
man I met,he had been trying to break it off with him for a long
time.We both want to stay married because we love each other,but he
dose not want to stop his in counters with other men.This is so hard
for me,and I need to talk with people who are making there marriage
work even when there husbands are still being involved with other
men..He has made a promise to me that I will be the only one he will
love,but he still has the need to do this.I keep asking if he loves
me then how could he want to be with anyone else.I just need to see
if there are women out there how have made this work,I so want to
make this work.It is killing me but I love him so much.Some days I
hurt so bad I cant
> breath,but we have 4 kids so I have to keep it together.Please can
anyone help me?

 

[Lube]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

so I guess it's not so much the closet or guys who are in the closet but hypocrites who occupy public spaces opposite to their 'private' activities.
to paraphrase signorile though, I think the milkman, the professor, the plumber and the politician should all come out until it no longer matters who is gay or not, and until kids are no longer shot, bullied, bashed or ostracised for being queer.

and for that we also have to give thanks to the flaming faggots, the ones who can't pass, for they're the ones that cop the shit but give us a space to come out as well

I agree very strongly with this.

I don't hate guys who are in the closet, I just have little respect for them. I wince at the recollection that I was in denial (which is different from being in the closet) for so long, but there's nothing you can do about the past.

 

[youngnihilist]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

Some situations warrant staying in the closet. We know what they are. Fine.

What bugs me is closet cases who would have accepting parents, friends, etc. and STILL stay in the closet. I've met guys who I ask, would your parents mind, they say nope, would your friends? Nope. But they're STILL in the fucking closet. They should come out and they're being selfish cowards by not.

 

[Twistedup]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

well i'm having a real hard time dealing with the idea of never having a family with kids of my genetic line and chosen mate...this seems lame but that almost seems worth the prospect of never enjoying sex and/or getting it in skeezy public places if i want to enjoy it...almost

reading through this it seems as if no one really respects guys who stay in and get married and have kids...like they are doing some disservice to their families...well i bet many kids with closeted gay dads would disagree.

for me it's like most of my friends and family wouldn't mind, but after coming out my hopes of my own family are gone because any lady i tried to dupe would surely get a warning from someone.

i just don't see why staying closeted and raising a family is so shunned here.

 

[JOHN B]

Re: For OUT guys: Are you bothered or offended by

^same here Neo! They look at me as if just being out is bragging. They think they are so smart by "pretending" and "no one else knows". But they do not realize that those who try the hardest to hide it, are actually the most visible sometimes.....