Forgiveness

[rareboy]

Johnny, be careful about mentioning the name "Richard Strauss" on JUB.

JUB is full of ill-informed ignoramuses who only know Strauss for one incident in his latter years.

Snorts derisively.....

 

[rareboy]

You're correct, the port I was drinking clearly has gone to my head. I edited in shame....

*pours out another goblet* * nods sympathetically*

 

[Hakuba]

I usually have no problem with forgiving people, I'm pretty generous with things like that, at least in theory, but I have more of a difficult time with letting go of grudges. I can forgive but often still be bitter. Maybe that's not real forgiveness though.

 

[MEP2491]

Im one of those people who doesn't hold grudges or ill feelings toward someone. That being said, if someone does something so terrible that it effects me deeply then I have no problem never forgiving them. Luckily that hasn't happened to me.

 

[cgymike]

I think I have heard that young people hold on to stuff a lot more than older people who are more spontaneuous and adaptive.

 

[blackbeltninja]

I'd forgive.
But it takes a fool not to learn from life's experiences.

I like this.

-d-

 

[cgymike]

After what I heard today, I'm leaning on the side of forgiveness.

Yeah...it's disabled!

 

[Pianist]

Depends on who and what. I have lines... if they're crossed, no forgiveness, no forgetting, no trusting.

 

[otters]

I received an interesting message asking for an explanation of my stance (vide supra post #33). Of course I know Matthew 18:21-35, and the topic «the opposites of the gospel, God's justice versus unjust men», but that wouldn't be a yielding answer.
Let's pretend that I'm not an Agnostic, but a Christian, then I have to confess that I'm an avid enemy of «sola scriptura» and «sola fide» doctrines.
In fact, I'm neither Anglican/Episcopalian nor Methodist, but I'm particularly fond with Anglicans/Episcopalians and Methodists since they defeated the abominable «sola scriptura» monstrum, and at least partially the «sola fide» doctrine.
(excursus: What's the aftermath of «sola scriptura» and «sole fide» doctrine? You can see it day by day in modern U.S.A.: millions of people having no proper health care, etc.etc.; who wants to be precise on this topic should take a close look into «justification» — the theological term, in latin: iustificatio, ancient greek: δικαίωσις [dikaíōsis]).
Completely bluntly spoken: Since forgiveness is overrated by the adherents of «sola scriptura», I in contrast absolutely don't care whether someone forgives; and I don't even care whether one has faith. The one and only thing I care: GOOD WORKS.

 

[peeonme]

I received an interesting message asking for an explanation of my stance (vide supra post #33). Of course I know Matthew 18:21-35, and the topic «the opposites of the gospel, God's justice versus unjust men», but that wouldn't be a yielding answer.
Let's pretend that I'm not an Agnostic, but a Christian, then I have to confess that I'm an avid enemy of «sola scriptura» and «sola fide» doctrines.
In fact, I'm neither Anglican/Episcopalian nor Methodist, but I'm particularly fond with Anglicans/Episcopalians and Methodists since they defeated the abominable «sola scriptura» monstrum, and at least partially the «sola fide» doctrine.
(excursus: What's the aftermath of «sola scriptura» and «sole fide» doctrine? You can see it day by day in modern U.S.A.: millions of people having no proper health care, etc.etc.; who wants to be precise on this topic should take a close look into «justification» — the theological term, in latin: iustificatio, ancient greek: δικαίωσις [dikaíōsis]).
Completely bluntly spoken: Since forgiveness is overrated by the adherents of «sola scriptura», I in contrast absolutely don't care whether someone forgives; and I don't even care whether one has faith. The one and only thing I care: GOOD WORKS.

I must be missing something, so please help me a little, I understand the doctrines that you mention, by scripture alone, by faith alone,
but I can't see how if I forgive my fellow man as scripture proclaims, no, demands, how that leads to millions not having health care in the USA, are you suggesting that we seek a restitution or a sort of vengeance on the wealthy who do not provide this by way of paying their fair share in taxes?
Please simplify this, thanks

 

[otters]

I must be missing something, so please help me a little, I understand the doctrines that you mention, by scripture alone, by faith alone,
but I can't see how if I forgive my fellow man as scripture proclaims, no, demands, how that leads to millions not having health care in the USA, are you suggesting that we seek a restitution or a sort of vengeance on the wealthy who do not provide this by way of paying their fair share in taxes?
Please simplify this, thanks

Oh, thank you, I'm flattered and cajoled.
IMHO, there is of course a conjunction between the force of aforementioned un-enlightened Protestant doctrine, and the fact that there wasn't an October revolution in the U.S.A. — but enough already: It's definitely not my mission to give the people in the U.S.A. lessons.

 

[rareboy]

When all is said and done...I'd like to know that I am forgiven....

 

[otters]

When all is said and done...I'd like to know that I am forgiven....

over there ->

Johann Sebastian Bach (1685-1750)
Cantata BWV 89
Was soll ich aus dir machen, Ephraim? (What shall I make of you, Ephraim?)

http://youtu.be/ilBjTbXHKCI?t=42m53s

Event: Solo Cantata for the 22nd Sunday after Trinity

Readings: Epistle: Philippians 1: 3-11; Gospel: Matthew 18:23-35

text: https://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~wfb/cantatas/89.html
text German and English: http://www.bachvespersnyc.org/texts.asp?id=10&t=49#text

 

[bankside]

I don’t forgive, I just become indifferent.

Thynight that makes sense to me.

When I see someone's poor behaviour, it tells me something about their character. I can't un-know that. It's not really a question of anger or reconciliation or drama or reunion or whatever. It just becomes a part of my knowledge about that person.

There are a lot of people who talk about forgiveness as though they are holding onto something that is a great burden of which they must relieve themselves. I have never understood that.

It is effortless to know things about people. If someone demonstrates that they are dangerous and creepy, I can know that fact forever without taxing my brain in the least. Nor am I overwhelmed by it or distracted by it. But I certainly remember. If they try to make amends? Sure; then I might know something more about them. Whether they are able to make amends is something else entirely.

 

[Kyanimal]

My grandmother, on my Mom's side, was one of the very few people I've ever known who actually lived her life following the tenets of her Faith. She was an avid student of the scriptures, in her own ways, but by no means a "Bible Thumper". However, she often got her kicks from drawing my Dad, the minister, a Master of Theology, into debates he was destined to lose.

When you were caught doing something wrong, she would be the first to sincerely forgive you. Would she ever forget about it? No flippin' way!

She raised one of my cousins, along with his two older sisters, from the time he was about 8, or so. He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, unlike his sisters, and ended up in a lot of trouble. By the time he hit his mid thirties, he'd spent nearly half his life behind bars.

Though she was living on a limited income, she would still accept his calls, and send him some money when she could. She was the only member of the extended family that would still talk to, and about, him.

When asked why she continued to do that, her response was that above all else, he was her grandson. As long as she had contact with him, there was still a sliver of Hope.

Of course, he had to pay the consequences of his actions, as everyone must. She was concerned about the state of his soul.

She was not forgiving him because of Him. She forgave him because that was who She was.

 

[Willie Boy]

Less and less everyday. Forgiveness means forgetting, and I'm tired of having to forget only to be reminded of the things I tried to forget.

I'm not real big on the whole "forgive and forget" thing. It takes me a while to trust people, so if they do me wrong.....that's it.

I hold a grudge like a mother holds the hand of a child.

I disagree with both of these comments. Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting. If you forget the wrong done to you there is no need to forgive it as you don't even remember. Forgiveness is simply letting go of the hurt that was caused, nothing more. This does not mean you act as if it never happened. The person(s) who wronged you should still have to re-earn your trust. Forgiving does not mean leaving yourself open to be hurt again, only that you release the pain so it doesn't continue to eat away at you.

For my own sanity and happiness, I work to forgive. I say work, because sometimes it's a long process. I can say with my mouth "I forgive you", but that means nothing if I still have a lot of pain inside. You have to work at it. It's always best to forgive, rather than nurture your pain and let it grow into hate.

Well said.

I hate everyone equally.

Awwww, how sweet.

When I learned that forgiveness was about me and not the other person I became eager to forgive as it cleared my mind and freed up my emotions. Waking up everyday and walking around with grudges was an excuse to be bitter and resentful. I no longer want to give that power to someone who has wronged me. One of the greatest gifts I received was learning that by separating forgiveness and forgetting, I could remember what was done or not done, while, at the same time, putting it into the past. Holding on to crap means I have less "room" to enjoy the present.

Sometime after age 60, I made a decision that I wanted to eventually die in peace. There's an adage: "would you rather be right or be happy?" My earlier years were spent being "right." I'd rather be happy.

I think too many people people think that forgiveness means trying to pretend something never happened. Walking around with hurt, resentment, hate, etc. gives that other person continuous control over me. That's a voodoo doll I didn't need.

I'd advise anyone to realize that forgiveness is about them and not the other person.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Alistair]

You get one chance with me. I'll forgive once, but I won't forget and it will take a lot to rebuild the trust. Do it again and you're gone.

 

[MNRomantic]

You get one chance with me. I'll forgive once, but I won't forget and it will take a lot to rebuild the trust. Do it again and you're gone.

This is pretty much how I operate, too.

Trust is not something that can be, nor should it be messed with.

I'll forgive you once, but if it happens again, don't expect it a second time.

How does that go? "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

Kind of how I feel about forgiveness.

 

[otters]

Please connect the dots here. It seems a non sequitur.

short story: the typical adherents of «sola fide» understand it as the cipher for «no need to do good works»

 

[bankside]

I received an interesting message asking for an explanation of my stance (vide supra post #33). Of course I know Matthew 18:21-35, and the topic «the opposites of the gospel, God's justice versus unjust men», but that wouldn't be a yielding answer.
Let's pretend that I'm not an Agnostic, but a Christian, then I have to confess that I'm an avid enemy of «sola scriptura» and «sola fide» doctrines.
In fact, I'm neither Anglican/Episcopalian nor Methodist, but I'm particularly fond with Anglicans/Episcopalians and Methodists since they defeated the abominable «sola scriptura» monstrum, and at least partially the «sola fide» doctrine.
(excursus: What's the aftermath of «sola scriptura» and «sole fide» doctrine? You can see it day by day in modern U.S.A.: millions of people having no proper health care, etc.etc.; who wants to be precise on this topic should take a close look into «justification» — the theological term, in latin: iustificatio, ancient greek: δικαίωσις [dikaíōsis]).
Completely bluntly spoken: Since forgiveness is overrated by the adherents of «sola scriptura», I in contrast absolutely don't care whether someone forgives; and I don't even care whether one has faith. The one and only thing I care: GOOD WORKS.

The greater problem in civil society is people continue to think these concepts are relevant to our lives as citizens. This may matter to our lives as members of a congregation, for those that have one, but for everyone, we have other responsibilities rooted in our status as citizens.