Former leaders of "ex-gay" ministry apologize

[LonelyInVenice]

Well ain't that sweet? Frankenstein tries to stop his own monster.

If he's the single strongest voice fighting Exodus, he's doing a piss poor job. They're still there and still very politically powerful. Kids are still forced into the camps he helped make.

Jasun, refer to what FanofFiction said. How long must he pay (as if he was ever asked to. . . he just does it because it's the right thing for him to do)? 30 years doesn't buys some softening of the heart?

Being indoctrinated in Religious dogma has caused MANY people to rebel against their nature. You have no compassion for that? We speak out against the self loathing, but we offer them more loathing in return if they "do the right thing?" We hate that they hate us, and we still hate if their heart changes?

Let your heart soften. He spent fewer than 20 years as a self loathing man trying to convert himself and others. He's spent more than 30 trying to redeem himself. We seem to paint Michael Bussee as somehow worse than George Rekers. Bussee has "repented" and is actively trying to make amends. Rekers has never repented, was caught being a hypocrite, and yet he's faded into silence. You would condemn Bussee to do the same. . . because he did the right thing? Thank him for doing the right thing. . . don't dwell on the past.

I know you want to fight back against the ex-gay ministries. . . but the way to do that is with love, not hate. Otherwise, we give them more ammunition to cry out against us as "those nasty, hateful, angry gays!"

 

[kallipolis]

Well ain't that sweet? Frankenstein tries to stop his own monster.

If he's the single strongest voice fighting Exodus, he's doing a piss poor job. They're still there and still very politically powerful. Kids are still forced into the camps he helped make.

There is no guarantee that we will succeed in attaining our objectives.

Life is never that simple, or straightforward.

We don't make a huge effort, only on the basis that we know in advance, that we will succeed. We make the effort to ensure that we are living our life in accordance with our belief that I, the individual person can make a difference in the lives of others.

But we try, nevertheless to succeed in what ever venture encourages our enthusiastic participation.

The making of Utopia is a work in progress.

Let's not permit our own demons from our past to pass judgement upon those who have had their eyes opened, and as a result, over many years attempt to rectify their past misdeeds.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

Being indoctrinated in Religious dogma has caused MANY people to rebel against their nature. You have no compassion for that? We speak out against the self loathing, but we offer them more loathing in return if they "do the right thing?" We hate that they hate us, and we still hate if their heart changes?

Maybe a bit of an extreme example but if the guy who raped and killed your mom found God and said he was REALLY sorry... how would you react? Is what this guy did any better? I don't think it is. I think it's worse.

He spent fewer than 20 years as a self loathing man trying to convert himself and others.

And teenagers are still killing themselves because of him.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

There are some things that are so horrible, so unforgivable, so despicable and evil that they're unforgivable.

Guess some people are willing to just shrug it off and give those people a pass.

I'm not. I never will be.

And if those people had ANY guts whatsoever, they wouldn't have been up at the Gay and Lesbian Center in West Hollywood that day. While they were giving that speech, 80 miles south in Orange County there was a huge Ex-Gay convention going on. THAT's where they would have been if they were anything but a bunch of sniveling cowards.

But sniveling cowards is all they are. Fuck them all.

 

[kallipolis]

There are some things that are so horrible, so unforgivable, so despicable and evil that they're unforgivable.

Guess some people are willing to just shrug it off and give those people a pass.

I'm not. I never will be.

And if those people had ANY guts whatsoever, they wouldn't have been up at the Gay and Lesbian Center in West Hollywood that day. While they were giving that speech, 80 miles south in Orange County there was a huge Ex-Gay convention going on. THAT's where they would have been if they were anything but a bunch of sniveling cowards.

But sniveling cowards is all they are. Fuck them all.

I have yet to meet the perfect specimen of homo sapiens.

I am also very sure that you would not award your self laurel leaves for pretending to be a better human person than the rest of us.

But I am one of those queer people who accepts you for all your evident imperfections,and warts knowing that I am also as imperfect as you.

Imperfection is a menace that helps us to understand our humanity,and our need for self improvement.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

I have yet to meet the perfect specimen of homo sapiens.

I am also very sure that you would not award your self laurel leaves for pretending to be a better human person than the rest of us.

But I am one of those queer people who accepts you for all your evident imperfections,and warts knowing that I am also as imperfect as you.

Imperfection is a menace that helps us to understand our humanity,and our need for self improvement.

Not quite sure what you're doing.

I'm sure I've done a few pretty nasty things in my life that someone will never forgive me for doing. But intentionally misleading three generations of gay teens into forced conversion therapy, anti-gay laws and self hate isn't one of them.

What these people did wasn't an accident...it took a LOT of work and effort for them to do THAT much damage.

 

[kallipolis]

Not quite sure what you're doing.

I'm sure I've done a few pretty nasty things in my life that someone will never forgive me for doing. But intentionally misleading three generations of gay teens into forced conversion therapy, anti-gay laws and self hate isn't one of them.

What these people did wasn't an accident...it took a LOT of work and effort for them to do THAT much damage.

We should never anchor our self into our past. To permit our past life to impact upon our present, is to guarantee that our life will always be burdened and haunted by the demons of our past.

The man realised that he committed a grave crime against his fellow human being. When eventually he saw the light, he made, and continues to make a determined effort to right the wrongs of his past.

Redeeming our self from past misdeeds enables us to put the record straight, and ensures that we become part of the solution that will in due time eradicate such destructive reparative techniques from the face of the earth.

This is not about being compassionate, nor about forgiveness, but is all about each, and every human person who is prepared to learn from our mistakes, by attempting to correct the damage that we have made.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

The man realised that he committed a grave crime against his fellow human being. When eventually he saw the light, he made, and continues to make a determined effort to right the wrongs of his past.

Well no... actually... he doesn't.

Instead of actually fighting the monster he created, he goes and gives "feel good" speeches to gay groups. For money.

What exactly has this guy done, other than speak to gay people about his "poor me" past?

I haven't see him on TV shows debating Ex gays.. I haven't seen him on The Today Show talking about the Rekkers thing... I mean... other than a few paid speaking engagements.. can someone point to some of his accomplishments?

 

[kallipolis]

Well no... actually... he doesn't.

Instead of actually fighting the monster he created, he goes and gives "feel good" speeches to gay groups. For money.

What exactly has this guy done, other than speak to gay people about his "poor me" past?

I haven't see him on TV shows debating Ex gays.. I haven't seen him on The Today Show talking about the Rekkers thing... I mean... other than a few paid speaking engagements.. can someone point to some of his accomplishments?

According to LonelyinVenice the focus of our exchanges is still involved in actively fighting against Exodus, and all that this organisation stands for. The details I am unaware of.

I am not an apologist for this person, but believe that those who have made an effort to face their past misdeeds and correct their past mistakes should not have to be judged as lepers and untouchables.

 

[LonelyInVenice]

So glad that some of you were so lucky in your lives that you didn't have an internal struggle over whether to accept yourself or loathe that part of you that society told you was an abomination. How fortunate for you. [/sarcasm]

Jason, there's no comparison between the ex-ex-gays and a rapist/murderer, whatsoever. We're talking ideological differences here, not violent acts. That there were horrible consequences is not something that you can assume was foreseen by these people.

Again: these are ideological differences. Our goal is to win them over. If we expect to win people over to our point of view, we'll have no success, whatsoever, if we follow your paradigm. "We hate you, you should change your mind. . . and once you change your mind we hate you anyway!" THAT's going to win you LOTS of friends.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

So glad that some of you were so lucky in your lives that you didn't have an internal struggle over whether to accept yourself or loathe that part of you that society told you was an abomination. How fortunate for you. [/sarcasm]

Even when I was having my internal struggle (in my fucking teens, by the way), I never for a moment considered forming a fake conversion camp based on Junk science in order to pretend that I was straight. But then... I have a spine.

Jason, there's no comparison between the ex-ex-gays and a rapist/murderer, whatsoever. We're talking ideological differences here, not violent acts. That there were horrible consequences is not something that you can assume was foreseen by these people.

My name is Jasun. Jason is the guy with the hockey mask. He's a bit nicer than I am, I guess. You talk about "ideological differences" and not "violent acts." I would say that forming an organization of Ex-Gays, making it a political group and attacking the gay community would be a "violent act."

It was an attempt to force us all back in the closet. Because he couldn't handle that there were some people with more guts than him.

Again: these are ideological differences. Our goal is to win them over. If we expect to win people over to our point of view, we'll have no success, whatsoever, if we follow your paradigm. "We hate you, you should change your mind. . . and once you change your mind we hate you anyway!" THAT's going to win you LOTS of friends.

See... I figure that if we draw attention to just how much harm those people have caused us, it's going to change a lot more minds than if we just politely laid ourselves down in the ditch and let them come for us.

I would ALSO think that going after those people mercilessly would make them think twice about hurting us in the first place.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

. We're talking ideological differences here, not violent acts. That there were horrible consequences is not something that you can assume was

So... George Rekkers, who took a hundred thousand dollars from the Florida Government to testify in a court case which ultimately removed foster children from gay foster parents and stopped all gay people from adopting...

Would you not consider that a "violent act?"

And if so... do you think now that he's been outed that we should all be nice to him?




'cuz I don't.

 

[Nomenclature]

Jasun is so awesome and right on point. How can you NOT agree with him?!

 

[Lube]

.I would ALSO think that going after those people mercilessly would make them think twice about hurting us in the first place.

I'll disagree with you there.

Why? He wasn't being mean to hurt people. He really seemed like he believed what he was doing. People will die for what they believe in; deterrents are meaningless. You have to educate them.

People are sometimes misguided, and it's good to cut them a break, if only because we're not perfect, either.

Contrast his treatment of gays with Cheney, who knew he was using gays simply as a means to bolster his own power. I think there's a big difference. (that's not to say I would never forgive Cheney; just that it's a lot harder).

I'm glad you don't have kids. Because they're imperfect, too.

You do nonetheless make good points about ex-ex-gays not showing up on The Today Show or documentaries. He could do more.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

Why? He wasn't being mean to hurt people. He really seemed like he believed what he was doing. People will die for what they believe in; deterrents are meaningless. You have to educate them.

People are sometimes misguided, and it's good to cut them a break, if only because we're not perfect, either.

Oh, that poor, misguided Adolph Hitler. That poor soul Charles Mengele. If only someone had cut them a break. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone there, eh?

you know what... that first stone has been cast. I'm just throwing it back where it belongs.

I'm glad you don't have kids. Because they're imperfect, too.

If one of my kids did something that despicable, I sure wouldn't just "oh well... he meant well" and let it slide. I sure hope you wouldn't be one of those Dahmer Moms who says "My boy is a good boy.. he always cleans his fork after he eats people..."

 

[Lube]

Oh, that poor, misguided Adolph Hitler. That poor soul Charles Mengele. If only someone had cut them a break. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone there, eh?

you know what... that first stone has been cast. I'm just throwing it back where it belongs.



If one of my kids did something that despicable, I sure wouldn't just "oh well... he meant well" and let it slide. I sure hope you wouldn't be one of those Dahmer Moms who says "My boy is a good boy.. he always cleans his fork after he eats people..."

You think Hitler was trying to help people? I don't. It was a power trip.

And, well, what would you do to your kids? Refuse to talk to them for the rest of their lives? That's how dysfunctional families are made.

 

[Lube]

I think part of Jasun's point is that the ex-gay thing was a power trip too.

But the difference to me is that I don't think these guys knew wtf they were really doing. They didn't appreciate the damage they were causing.

Dictators like Hitler not only understand the damage they cause, but they want to do that.

Sure, but if Hitler were dethroned earlier, he'd be like Bill Gates and want to rule the world through business or something. I don't get that feeling of megalomania from the ex-ex-gay guy. He bailed after only what, 3 years? Cheney, Gates, Jobs, and Hitler would never do that.

 

[Nomenclature]

You think Hitler was trying to help people? I don't.

He believed that he was helping the German people, and the world by doing God's work.

The pope used to write letters to him all the time praising him, and after the failed assassination attempt, he wrote to him and said that it was evidence god was protecting him.

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

You think Hitler was trying to help people? I don't. It was a power trip.

I think in his own fucked up way.. yes... I think he probably DID think he was helping the people of Germany. He was an evil person who did evil things. But to hear him speak... he sure sounded like he thought he was doing good, productive stuff.

For the record... Some people will think I'm taking it to an absurd level comparing this man to a reformed Nazi. Maybe. But I can sure see the parallels.

And, well, what would you do to your kids? Refuse to talk to them for the rest of their lives? That's how dysfunctional families are made.

I would submit if a child of mine was making his living by lying about changing who he was, bringing a few generations of gay men along for the ride, not caring who he was hurting... I would probably already be in a dysfunctional family.

I don't know how I'd react. But I'll tell you this... if my kid had done something THAT fucked up, I sure wouldn't just pat him on the head and say "oh well... let's go get some lunch, shall we?"

 

[JasunStrikesBack]

. I don't get that feeling of megalomania from the ex-ex-gay guy. He bailed after only what, 3 years?

Um.. a bit closer to 20, actually.