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Former President Bill Clinton on DOMA & DADT

It's unfair to say he's "blaming" gays. He's very right to remind us that the general public was rather hostile to LGBT rights at that time.

Remember also it was only in 1991 that the World Health Organization removed homosexuality as an illness from their classification of diseases. A huge majority of people, in the USA and elsewhere, still thought homosexuality was a deviant behaviour (this majority has thankfully now turned into a minority)


American gays and lesbians, know your enemy. It's certainly not Bill Clinton. Back then it was :
- ALL the Republicans (at that time, no Olympia Snowe, no Susan Collins, no Lincoln Chafee)
- many democrats........ eg, Sam Nunn, and a enough other various gutless Democrats who fell in line for that veto proof vote.

I never understood, and I think I'll never understand the gays' anger at Clinton for not issuing an executive order when the Congress was standing ready with a veto proof majority to reverse it. He made the "best" of a bad situation and all he got was venom.
 
He did blame us. More importantly, he signed DADT and DOMA. He hated what happened, yet he agreed with what Congress by signing them both. Clinton has done far more to harm us than any other president before or since.
 
Metta, thanks for giving me an excuse to go back through the NY Times archive to figure out what exactly led up to DADT. Here's what I was able to dig out about the sequence of events in 1993.

Practically from the second Clinton was sworn in, he was hit with a shit-storm from the military on his campaign pledge to allow gays to serve in the military. Colin Powell, then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, in particular was adamantly against it.

I think it's pretty clear that Clinton had no intention of tackling the issue so early in his term. But to give him credit, he bravely tried to stay true to his word for a while. He ordered the Pentagon to come up with a plan to repeal the ban within 6 months, and in the meantime he ordered dismissals of gay people from the military to be suspended. That idea didn't ever really fly with the Pentagon.

Then Congress weighed in, and public opinion. Both were overwhelmingly against repealing the ban. Congress held hearings, the Pentagon convened a panel, and Clinton mostly stopped talking about the issue, except when he was asked about it occasionally at press conferences.

The military and Congress spent the spring of 1993 trying to figure out how to rewrite the regulations. At one point it looked as if they would allow people to be open about being gay, but at no point did they consider lifting the ban on homosexual conduct. Clinton was asked about it on March 24, and said he supported the ban on gay "conduct", but it's not clear whether he meant gay sex or things like having a subscription to the Advocate. (At the same press conference he said he wasn't opposed to the idea of separate "homosexual units".)

The actual phrase "don't ask, don't tell" seems to have been coined by May 12. On May 28, Clinton said

"We almost have a compromise here," Mr. Clinton said in a nationally televised question-and-answer session with tourists this morning in the White House Rose Garden. "Most Americans believe if you don't ask and you don't say and you're not forced to confront it, people should be able to serve."
...

"We are trying to work this out so that our country does not -- I understand what you're saying -- so that our country does not appear to be endorsing a gay life style," he said. "But we accept people as people, and give them a chance to serve if they play by the rules."

So pretty much by then, I would say, it was all over but the shouting.

The bill that was passed specified that three things were illegal for service members: 1) homosexual conduct (unless it's something you don't usually do, the famous "I got so bombed last night I don't remember what the fuck happened" exception), 2) Openly declare you're gay, or 3) attempt to get married to someone of the same sex.

Where Clinton is being disingenous in this clip is in his statement that he had no choice but to sign the bill because it had passed by a veto-proof majority. In fact he had pretty much caved in on the issue long before the bill was passed.

But his overall point is absolutely correct. He really could not have done much more than he did, given the political climate in 1993. I also believe him when he says he never expected the military to continue or even expand their anti-gay witch hunts after DADT became law. Perhaps that shows a certain naivete on his part.

As for the idea that gay lobbying groups didn't do enough to support him, there may be some truth to that. This quote is from a New York Times article on February 24, 1993:

But for now, gay-rights groups are being criticized as having been blinded into complacency by having a President support their position. Some Congressional aides say the groups failed to muster phone banks to call members of Congress quickly, to put the gay position before the television cameras and to rally to their side representatives of other causes, like those who believe in a woman's right to choose abortion. Also, with Mr. Clinton committed to ending the ban, some Congressional figures say gay groups felt no need to shore up popular support.
 
Clinton did more for us than any other previous president. No president in history had supported our community like he did. No other president in history supported gays in the military.

If you would care to look at the numbers that DADT and DOMA passed in Congress, you would know there was nothing he could do. Presidents are not dictators.

You want to talk about harm? Physical harm? How about Reagan's indifference to AIDS? How about Bush's advocacy for a Federal Marriage Amendment?

How you exalt Republican homophobes and then lash out at our supporters is totally beyond me.


You measure Clinton by his intent, not by what he actually did. He signed both bills. That means he concurred with the actions of Congress. In the alternative, he could have Vetoed both bills. Veto, for those of you who didn't take Latin in High School, translates literally into "I Forbid". That means Clinton could have registered his disapproval with Congress actions. Presidents aren't dictators, but they shouldn't be willing accomplices, either. Clinton was a willing accomplice. Although he claims to be our pal, he actually participated in an act which caused us harm.

It's always better to judge people by what they do, rather than what they say.
 
We all know you take a right wing stance on issues, so it's no surprise that you wouldn't miss the opportunity to take a swipe at Clinton over this, on a superficial level. But bashing Clinton for harming us more than any other president is wrong. I could name at least one president who did us real harm more than any other, Eisenhower. That was so far back in gay history that no politician dared speak in our favor. Gays were systematically investigated and fired from Federal jobs under Eisenhower. It's called the "Lavender Scare" today. Yet, it was a different time and people didn't know better. Fast forward 40 years, and we have changing times, politicians are taking sides in the culture war. Republicans are almost exclusively against gay rights, some Democrats are starting to see the light. Clinton could have taken anti-gay positions, but he didn't. Clinton was the most pro-gay president in American history, with the exception of Obama. Congress makes the laws. We failed to get Congressional support for Clinton's desire to repeal the ban on gays in the military. That being said, the times were different back then and it was likely impossible anyway given the huge amount of support in both houses of Congress. Signing the bills didn't make any bit of difference, and might have sunk Clinton's presidency for both terms.

There is no political side on this particular matter. It's a matter of simple fact. Clinton had the opportunity to make a statement on gay rights and chose not to. He was a coward who literally went along to get along. He should have vetoed the bills and did what he could to get gay people to lobby against the override. If there was an override, we'd be no worse off than we are. Instead he blamed us. Did you not watch the video?

Hell, even a pocket veto would have been better than signing the bills! A pocket veto, for those of you not paying attention in civics class, is where the president simply takes no action on a bill before him and it becomes law, if Congress is in session. But no, instead he takes part in legislation that does our community harm. He agrees with the action taken by Congress.

He is a hero in that he pays lip service to gay people. Nothing more.

I do thank you for the information about the "Lavender Scare". I suppose we all got lumped in with communists too. I'll be looking into that when I get a moment.
 
Metta, thanks for giving me an excuse to go back through the NY Times archive to figure out what exactly led up to DADT. Here's what I was able to dig out about the sequence of events in 1993.

Practically from the second Clinton was sworn in, he was hit with a shit-storm from the military on his campaign pledge to allow gays to serve in the military. Colin Powell, then the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, in particular was adamantly against it.

I think it's pretty clear that Clinton had no intention of tackling the issue so early in his term. But to give him credit, he bravely tried to stay true to his word for a while. He ordered the Pentagon to come up with a plan to repeal the ban within 6 months, and in the meantime he ordered dismissals of gay people from the military to be suspended. That idea didn't ever really fly with the Pentagon.

Then Congress weighed in, and public opinion. Both were overwhelmingly against repealing the ban. Congress held hearings, the Pentagon convened a panel, and Clinton mostly stopped talking about the issue, except when he was asked about it occasionally at press conferences.

The military and Congress spent the spring of 1993 trying to figure out how to rewrite the regulations. At one point it looked as if they would allow people to be open about being gay, but at no point did they consider lifting the ban on homosexual conduct. Clinton was asked about it on March 24, and said he supported the ban on gay "conduct", but it's not clear whether he meant gay sex or things like having a subscription to the Advocate. (At the same press conference he said he wasn't opposed to the idea of separate "homosexual units".)

The actual phrase "don't ask, don't tell" seems to have been coined by May 12. On May 28, Clinton said



So pretty much by then, I would say, it was all over but the shouting.

The bill that was passed specified that three things were illegal for service members: 1) homosexual conduct (unless it's something you don't usually do, the famous "I got so bombed last night I don't remember what the fuck happened" exception), 2) Openly declare you're gay, or 3) attempt to get married to someone of the same sex.

Where Clinton is being disingenous in this clip is in his statement that he had no choice but to sign the bill because it had passed by a veto-proof majority. In fact he had pretty much caved in on the issue long before the bill was passed.

But his overall point is absolutely correct. He really could not have done much more than he did, given the political climate in 1993. I also believe him when he says he never expected the military to continue or even expand their anti-gay witch hunts after DADT became law. Perhaps that shows a certain naivete on his part.

As for the idea that gay lobbying groups didn't do enough to support him, there may be some truth to that. This quote is from a New York Times article on February 24, 1993:


This is an excellent overview of what happened.

And it's true that gay lobbying groups didn't do enough to support him with gays in the military. We believed he could what he said he'd do, especially when he dove into it and was clearly a man who strives to be true to his word, and it didn't occur to us that we had to help. In hindsight that sounds dumb but the truth is we'd never had a President (or many other elected officials) so strongly on our side before and we were naive. Also we were exhausted after a decade of fighting the government and everything else connected to AIDS and I think we may have wanted someone to take care of us for a change. But we were responsible for our failure to support Clinton and therefore our response contributed to the creation of DADT. All these years, that had never occurred to me before.
 
You are still missing the point. It wouldn't have made any bit of difference whether or not the bills were signed, yet it made every bit of difference to Clinton's presidency. I support his decision to sign the veto-proof bills because he saved his presidency for it and went on to do great things for this country. Since you don't care if Clinton had a successful presidency, I understand why the lack of his signature would have meant a great deal to you past simply a symbolic gesture.
__________________


You don't sign things you don't agree with. If you do, you are unworthy of your office. If you sign them, you agree with them. You give your assent. That's what he did. Now he's trying to spin it. Sorry, we aren't buying!
 
How did gays in the military affect Clinton's presidency? Again, let's check the record.

On February 24, 1993, according to an article in the NY Times, Clinton had a 53 percent approval rating, roughly the same as Reagan at the same point in his first term.

But the article goes on to say

No single event or theme jumped out in terms of what people liked best about the new President so far. ... His more liberal stance toward homosexuals, including his push to allow them to serve in the military, was also volunteered in a positive way by 5 percent.

When asked what they liked least about what Mr. Clinton had done so far as President, one answer swamped all the others: 31 percent spontaneously cited homosexuals in the military, with respondents upset by the priority and prominence given to the issue by Mr. Clinton, as well as by the issue itself.

So 31% were so pissed off about Clinton's attempt to repeal the ban that they brought it up even without being asked about it.

By May 29, Clinton's approval rating was down to 36%, the lowest ever recorded for a President at that point in his first term.

How much of this drop was due to gays/military, and how much to Hillarycare? Well, on March 28 a column in the Times says "Early polls have shown Mrs. Clinton with a high approval rating, and 6 in 10 Americans surveyed last month thought her both qualified and suitable to head the President's health care commission."

On June 13, they're saying "President Clinton's approval rating has fallen sharply since February, and Mrs. Clinton's popularity has suffered a more modest decline." So his drop in the polls can't be entirely attributed to Hillarycare. It's hard to escape the conclusion that gays in the military had more to do with it than anything else.

And then there was the midterm election of 1994. The Republicans picked up 50+ seats in the House and gained control of both houses for the first time in 50 years -- the so-called Gingrich Revolution. In an analysis on November 11, the Times said:


Large numbers of men abandoned Democratic candidates in Tuesday's elections, a trend that gave Republicans an edge in races around the nation and one that Democratic leaders fear might be hard to reverse.

...

Political analysts say the shift by men to Republicans was fueled by a particular disaffection for President Clinton among men, who are troubled more than women by his stands on issues like homosexuals in the military and health care and because men have become more sympathetic to hard-line Republican positions on issues like crime and taxes, which were central in political campaigns this year.

Nationwide, 54 percent of men and 46 percent of women voted for Republican House candidates, according to a survey of voters leaving the polls, the largest gap since at least 1980.
...

"We got clobbered among white men," said Al From, president of the Democratic Leadership Council, a group of moderate Democrats that Mr. Clinton once led. "When I go around I hear them talking about gays in the military, raising taxes and health care.

No numbers here breaking down exit polls by issue. So they may be jumping to conclusions. But the conventional wisdom, at least, gives a large part of the blame for the Republican takeover (which lasted till 2006) to gays in the military.

Both Clinton and Obama pledged to end the ban during their campaigns. But Clinton did more (or tried to do more) in his first week than Obama has done in 6 months. Can anybody doubt that Obama's stalling is attributable to his determination not to go down in flames like Clinton did?

EDIT: Incidentally, that May 1993 approval rating was the lowest Clinton ever experienced in his entire presidency.
 
You don't sign things you don't agree with. If you do, you are unworthy of your office. If you sign them, you agree with them. You give your assent. That's what he did. Now he's trying to spin it. Sorry, we aren't buying!
DADT was tucked into a huge military appropriations bill. Clinton would have had to veto the whole thing. But anyway, he'd long since given up on the issue before the bill reached his desk.

Remember, Clinton had famously never served in the military. So he was always looking for ways to show he supported them. When he found out how intense their opposition was to gays in the military, he first tried to compromise and finally settled for DADT (which at the time everybody thought was a compromise, as he says in the tape).
 
With all due fairness to the former President, he did his best and I believe he is sincere when he answered Lane Hudson back in the Netroots Convention.

Former President Clinton said:
You want to talk about 'Don't Ask Don't Tell', I'll tell you exactly what happened. You couldn't deliver me any support in the Congress and they voted by a veto-proof majority in both houses against my attempt to let gays serve in the military, and the media supported them. They raised all kinds of devilment. And all most of you did was to attack me instead of getting me some support in the Congress. Now that's the truth."

For the moderator who insists on the former President to veto DADT and DOMA, lets take things into perspective. For a start, here are links for you to look on

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00380

67 votes are required for the bill with DADT amendment to be veto proof but this bill passed by overwhelming 77 votes.

As for DOMA, it was passed with an overwhelming 85 votes.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...ote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=2&vote=00280

Both bills were passed filibuster-proof so the former President's hands were tied.

Let us not repeat the same mistake today. Let us look beyond the White House. Let us help President Obama to deliver him congressional support to repeal DADT and DOMA.
 
You don't sign things you don't agree with. If you do, you are unworthy of your office. If you sign them, you agree with them. You give your assent. That's what he did. Now he's trying to spin it. Sorry, we aren't buying!

What an elementary, unrealistic perception of presidential governance. Fortunately we DO NOT live under a dictatorship, if you think it's as easy as the president "Doing the right thing when he wants, how he wants, with the swipe of a pen" then I propose a new bill that all US citizens be forced to repeat 8th grade social studies. Ever heard of "Checks and balances?"
 
I've already reached past that level with Jackoroe. The argument now is over the honorable thing which would have been to veto them, or have a pocket veto. On the other hand, as a liberal-moderate on most issues, I appreciate that he didn't apply his veto to a bill certain to become law anyway. Doing otherwise would have hurt his presidency considerably. So it's really over this signature that divides liberal and conservative LGBTs on this issue. As conservatives stick to an anti-liberal ideology, they will never be open to the possibility that Clinton had good intentions towards us, or that his signature on DADT and DOMA were not bad in a deeper sense than the signatures alone.

Actually I am seeing the same pattern happening on President Obama's administration. Advocates are wasting time attacking the President rather than getting him any congressional support to repeal DOMA and DADT.

On the bright side, there is still light at the end of the tunnel after all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/dem-rep-dont-ask-dont-tel_n_259838.html

There are already 168 co-sponsor of this DADT repeal bill. Call your House Representatives to support this bill.

What a childish, unrealistic perception of presidential governance. Fortunately we DO NOT live under a dictatorship, if you think it's as easy as the president "Doing the right thing when he wants, how he wants, with the swipe of a pen" then I propose a new bill that all US citizens be forced to repeat 8th grade social studies. Ever heard of "Checks and balances?"

With all due respect to the moderator, maybe he just missed the former President who sees the Constitution as a "damn piece of paper.''
 
Advocates are wasting time attacking the President rather than getting him any congressional support to repeal DOMA and DADT.

It's kind of the American way. We think our work is done after voting someone into office.

On the bright side, there is still light at the end of the tunnel after all.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/dem-rep-dont-ask-dont-tel_n_259838.html

There are already 168 co-sponsor of this DADT repeal bill. Call your House Representatives to support this bill.

I'm hoping there's better response this time. We were lax about Prop 8, they're lax up in Maine, I hope this time we don't wait until it's too late... AGAIN, and then blame everyone else... AGAIN.

With all due respect to the moderator, maybe he just missed the former President who sees the Constitution as a "damn piece of paper.''

"Missed?" More like "dismissed." It's ok to shit on the constitution if it's coming out the ass of someone on your side. :roll:
 
If you read The Hollow Hope by Gerald Rosenberg, he would disagree. He says it was more political organizing, and such, that allowed for court decisions to be effective. He cites the 1954 Brown decision - actually spend many many pages on it -- and shows that in the South, it was virtually ignored until the 1964 and 1965 civil rights and voting acts, as well as other factors. A court ruling is ineffective unless there is support for it, essentially.

But I take exception to parts of his argument ,and I don't think it can be achieved solely politically, as he claims, or solely judiciously.
Brown was very important, but the biggest deal was surely the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which wouldn't have happened without the sit-ins and Freedom Marches in the South. Which in turn were approved only very reluctantly by the NAACP, who preferred the judicial approach.

But what's going on right now in the gay movement is growing public awareness of the justice of our cause. Which comes when we put a human face on the movement. Which happens when gay people come out of the closet... just like Harvey Milk said 30 years ago.

If every gay person in the country came out to their friends and family, DOMA and DADT would be repealed tomorrow.
 
I was very angry at the time. Even though there was theoretically a veto-proof majority a) some people who will vote for a bill WON'T vote to overturn a veto of the bill, and b) he should have vetoed both bills and FORCED them to overturn them. That would have been the principled stand.

I have never voted for a Republican for President. In fact I've only voted for one Republican in my life, a pro-choice one running against a right-to-life Democrat (Michigan politics was very strange back then).
 
As for what Clinton said about DOMA in the clip, his memory may be a little faulty. On the big picture, his position was always clear -- he was opposed to same sex marriage, and he said right from the beginning that he would sign DOMA if it passed the Congress.

But some of the details are dubious:

Now, while we're at it, let me just say one thing about DOMA, since you -- the reason I signed DOMA was -- and I said when I signed it -- that I thought the question of whether gays should marry should be left up to states and to religious organizations, and if any church or other religious body wanted to recognize gay marriage, they ought to.


Here's the complete text of his signing statement:

Throughout my life I have strenuously opposed discrimination of any kind, including discrimination against gay and lesbian Americans. I am signing into law HR 3396, a bill relating to same-gender marriage, but it is important to note what this legislation does and does not do.

I have long opposed governmental recognition of same-gender marriages, and this legislation is consistent with that position. The act confirms the right of each State to determine its own policy with respect to same-gender marriage and clarifies for purposes of Federal law the operative meaning of the terms 'marriage' and 'spouse.'

This legislation does not reach beyond those two provisions. It has no effect on any current Federal, State, or local antidiscrimination law and does not constrain the right of Congress or any State or locality to enact antidiscrimination laws. I therefore would take this opportunity to urge Congress to pass the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, an act which would extend employment discrimination protections to gays and lesbians in the workplace. This year the Senate considered this legislation contemporaneously with the act I sign today and failed to pass it by a single vote. I hope that in its next session Congress will pass it expeditiously.

I also want to make clear to all that the enactment of this legislation should not, despite the fierce and at times divisive rhetoric surrounding it, be understood to provide an excuse for discrimination, violence, or intimidation against any person on the basis of sexual orientation. Discrimination, violence, and intimidation for that reason, as well as others, violate the principle of equal protection under the law and have no place in American society.


It seems to me that the two statements I've bolded contradict each other.

We were attempting at the time, in a very reactionary Congress, to head off an attempt to send a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage to the states.


I'm unable to find any mention of any such amendment in 1996, not even in the Republican platform. Certainly it wasn't introduced in Congress that year.

I didn't like signing DOMA and I certainly didn't like the constraints that were put on benefits


But the Times reported on 5/16/96:

Mr. McCurry declined on Monday and again on Tuesday to elaborate on his remarks, except to say that "the President believes that marriage as an institution ought to be reserved for a union between one man and one woman," and that the White House was having trouble enough preserving health and medical benefits for those now covered by them without trying to extend them to same-sex partners.


Here's a real huh? moment:

Mr. Clinton's discomfort with the legislation and the issue was made clear tonight by the way he handled the bill, not with any White House ceremony but with an evening announcement on paper, well after the evening television news programs, that he would sign the legislation upon returning to Washington early Saturday morning after a four-day campaign trip.

Asked why Mr. Clinton would sign the bill in the early morning hours, Michael D. McCurry, the White House press secretary, said, ''Because the President believes the motives behind this bill are dubious, and the President believes that the sooner he gets this over with the better.''


And of course the bottom line to the whole thing is that 1996 was an election year. Clinton evidently decided he wasn't going to get burned by gay issues twice.
 
I think it is worth emphasizing that part of the job of a member of the political branches is to make compromises. I do not demand that any President or legislator act totally consistently with his ideals.

DADT was a compromise position. It was widely viewed within the gay community as an improvement over the Reagan policy which made even same-sex attraction a basis for dismissal. DADT was also widely called "Don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue." It was something we settled for, and it was a defensible compromise at the time. (It also got Sam Nunn to quit taking tours of submarines on the network news, and it ended "the Great Shower Debates.")
 
I'm not sure how anybody could describe as a compromise a policy that tells gay people "you can stay in the service as long as you're completely in the closet and never have sex."

But just to be clear, I don't blame Clinton at all for DADT, quite the contrary in fact. He did as much as anybody could have done at the time. He was also double-crossed by the Pentagon, who "pursued" to a much greater degree than he had been led to believe.

It's possible they no longer carried out the massive witchhunts of the Reagan years, as described in Randy Shilts's book, but they still managed to discharge 1200* gay service members a year till the end of the Clinton administration. The number didn't go down until the Iraq War started.

*That's a conservative estimate, based on the number of people who voluntarily reported their cases to the Service Members' Legal Defense Network. The actual number is undoubtedly higher.
 
The number didn't go down until the Iraq War started.


There's an obvious reason for that, and that same reason will be why DADT is repealed -- and I think in the not too distant future. Not because it's the right thing to do but because they need more bodies to continue our engagement in wars.

If repealing DADT were done for the right reason, gays in the military would be granted the same benefits straights have.

This is why I'm convinced DADT will be repealed:

PHOENIX, Aug. 17 -- President Obama said Monday that fierce fighting rages on in Afghanistan, but he defended the administration's new approach to the conflict there, calling it a "war of necessity." ...

"As I said when I announced this strategy, there will be more difficult days ahead," Obama said. "The insurgency in Afghanistan didn't just happen overnight. And we won't defeat it overnight. This will not be quick. This will not be easy."

The president said that he would continue to increase the size of the military to confront problems around the globe, but he added that he rejects wasteful spending on technology that commanders insist they no longer need.

"Our defense review is taking a top-to-bottom look at our priorities and posture, questioning conventional wisdom, rethinking old dogmas and challenging the status quo," he said. "We're asking hard questions about the forces we need and the weapons we buy."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/08/17/at_vfw_obama_warns_way_wont_be.html?wprss=44


ObamaCo is looking for ways to increase the size of our military, once again showing how much they're not a change from BushCo, except now gays become an obvious source. But I bet that won't include equal access to benefits.
 
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