France Declares War

[BostonPirate]

I was actually hoping to talk about relations with france improving as they are actively joining our hunt for Al Qaeda.

But the responses clearly indicate that americans by and large don't think they need the help in africa and pakistan.

I guess thats because we are doing so well on our own....lol

 

[laikaNYC]

And without the French resistance, the americans would never have won the second world war; absolutely no doubt about that.

What in the world are you talking about? I hope you're being sarcastic.

 

[Lostlover]

You should question any country's moral compass when they cave to someone like Hitler.

I'm no defender of the British. But if you compare their former colonies with the French, you can get who supports the wrong types of people and leaves the worst types of government behind

Francophone Africa is a mess. Not one positive example. While the British actually left democratic and free countries in Ghana, Botswana, Kenya.

The French are the best example on why it's easy to be an armchair critic.

Yeah, let's beat up on the French, because that's what Americans do!

They (along with most of the sane industrialized nations) didn't support Bush's war on Iraq, so we gave ourselves "Freedom Fries."

To my knowledge the French have always "cooked" their potatoes, and apparently Americans equated their "cooked" fries as being something "French" to take away from the fact that were "fried."

This American believes that we wouldn't have won our revolution against King George III if it weren't for the French bank rolling the whole operation. To the extent that their Monarchy was overturned, and when it came to "Democracy" the French have more than a lesson or two to teach us.

France didn't support Bush43's war in Iraq, and I seem to recall that the last time that the French "encouraged" us to avoid getting involved outside of the U.S. Borders was in a place called Vietnam.

And yet current day Americans seem to think that France was NEVER a Super Power.

Perhaps it's because they don't willfully speak English.

I'm sorry. What was the topic?

Oh yeah, a part of the globe that France had once "colonized," and we're laughing because those former French Colonies don't seem to matter, even though we're supposed to be fighting a "Global War on Terror." wfte

So we continue to make fun of them, and wonder why "The French" hold Americans and "The English" with such contempt.

 

[BostonPirate]

What in the world are you talking about? Do you know anything about WW2?

why don;t you tell him your opinion as to why he is exactly incorrect. I am interested in your detailed opinion on this topic!

why weren't the french underground instrumental in WW2 victories?

 

[DeeChai]

But the responses clearly indicate that americans by and large don't think they need the help in africa and pakistan.

The French probably feel the same towards us. After all, North Africa is an area in which there is a limited American presence yet is heavily influenced by the French. The French military has always marched to the beat of its own drum, sometimes to disastrous results.

 

[laikaNYC]

why don;t you tell him your opinion as to why he is exactly incorrect. I am interested in your detailed opinion on this topic!

why weren't the french underground instrumental in WW2 victories?

I do believe that they were very instrumental in the liberation of France. The resistance organization stockpiled weapons and worked with Allied intelligence to prepare for the invasion of France. I know during the invasion the resistance cut German supply lines and aided Allied forces. All a huge help of course. But for him to say we would have LOST the war without them is ludicrous.

Here's Eisenhower speaking on it:

"Without their great assistance the liberation of France and the defeat of the enemy in Western Europe would have consumed a much longer time and meant greater losses to ourselves."

 

[BostonPirate]

I do believe that they were very instrumental in the liberation of France. The resistance organization stockpiled weapons and worked with Allied intelligence to prepare for the invasion of France. I know during the invasion the resistance cut German supply lines and aided Allied forces. All a huge help of course. But for him to say we would have LOST the war without them is ludicrous.

Here's Eisenhower speaking on it:

so you are kind of in the middle of the road on this one. I agree with you.

They were very helpful with the process, but if they could have liberated themselves they would have. they helped us when they could, but were unable to do it on their own.

 

[BostonPirate]

isn't it illegal to wear traditional muslim garb in france?

 

[DeeChai]

isn't it illegal to wear traditional muslim garb in france?

I believe that the burka can't cover the face in public places.

 

[Kulindahr]

France is easy to criticize because they have in fact been a military and foreign-policy bumbler and bungler for much of their history. But it's easy to forget their fine moments in there.

As for the Foreign Legion, one has to give them credit for inventing it, at the very least. It wouldn't be nearly so effective if it didn't exist, and besides that, it's brought some noble concepts and traditions to the militaries of many nations. One can't just toss it off as not being full of Frenchmen, because it is in essence very French indeed -- France at it best.

 

[bankside]

@ Bankside: the trouble is, many of the people who've told me about French rudeness have themselves been immigrants to America. For example, one was a German-American, another was a Chilean-American, a third an English-American.

I know that there's a cultural gulf between the nations, but some of the incidents regaled to me really did "cross the line", Bankside—incidents that, in the US, would have certainly gotten the worker fired.

(Trivia: the Chilean-American traveled all over the European continent. Her favorite country? Norway. Least favorite? France.)

BTW, I guess there's nothing you could say to me that would change my mind about the Islamics. To my mind, Islam is a dark, incredibly repressive religion that enslaves women and treats them like cattle. Indeed, I find this repression, from the viewpoint of world history, especially egregious. For example, do you know anything about honor killings? Never mind that women have to dress head-to-toe in black chadors in 100+degree weather. (40+ Celsius)

And now, France is paying a terrible price for her "bedroom relationship" with the Islamics. I'm sorry, but when you lay down with dogs, you're going to get fleas.

They ain't gonna get any sympathy from me.

Well, by your own account, American tourists expect to be able to go to France and be rude. English as the Lingua Franca? You are aware that loosely translated, the term "Lingua Franca" itself means "language of the french?" (I'm abusing history only very slightly in that translation)

But essentially, if Americans go to France and expect to be treated like Americans, they deserve the treatment they get. As far as France's "Muslim problem," get back to me when someone flies an aeroplane into the Eiffel Tower.

France expects people to come to France for the purpose of being French, seeing French, understanding French. In the US, with Wal-mart culture and a reverence for "the market" I think a lot of people would get fired simply for failing to be compliant, and supplicant. In France, that attitude occasionally swings too far the other way (some of their strikes and protests are truly silly) but I think they are erring on the better side of the issue. Human beings are not "productivity inputs." They understand that in France. And so does the clientele of any industry.

I don't disagree with you about Islam itself, incidentally. However you do not have to look farther back than my grandparents to see how Christianity is at heart an incredibly dark repressive religion itself. Actually even my own mother-in-law, who was "schooled" by nuns in Catholic Ireland. What a waste of humanity.

In the west, we've almost killed off the offensive, odious notion of "Christendom." Give the "islamics" another generation and they will barbecue the notion of "Ummah" in their turn.

 

[kallipolis]

Johann,


The word Islamics normally refers to Muslim militants. Not to the regular Muslim person who emigrated to France in search of work and a new life.

Most of the Muslims living in France are from France's former African possessions. Palestine was formerly under British administration, and before that under the Ottoman Turks. Palestinians do not normally view France has a priority destination when fleeing the misery, and violence of Palestine.

The largest Jewish population in Europe resides in France.

France has a reasonably good reputation in assimilating its immigrants from the Muslim world. But problems remain as a result of higher unemployment levels and poverty among Muslim immigrants. I gather that Arizona also faces similar problems with many of its illegal Hispanic immigrants.

My own experience of apparent French rudeness, has been limited to Paris. Even the French people acknowledge that Parisians can be insufferably rude. Foreigners are not the only target of smug, supercilious Parisian waiters, and other catering staff.

 

[rareboy]

This American believes that we wouldn't have won our revolution against King George III if it weren't for the French bank rolling the whole operation. To the extent that their Monarchy was overturned, and when it came to "Democracy" the French have more than a lesson or two to teach us.

Of course, it wasn't democracy that the French monarchy was for. It was the English power that they were against.

Boy did the Bourbons miscalculate that one. Not that I'm saying they botched it.

But we're thankful they did.

Of course it meant the massacre of the French nobility and gave us Napoleon, but it also gave the world a democratic order and ardour.

 

[palemale]

•Almost everybody I've ever met who has visited France has commented on the rudeness of the natives. I can't speak for the English, but by most accounts, they really do hate Americans more deeply than anybody except for the Islamics.

I have been to France at least six times and have never been treated rudely by the French. I can't say the same for Britain, Germany or Italy. I know dozens of people who have visited France, or lived in France. None have ever complained about being treated rudely there. Maybe the French just like New Yorkers.

I never understood the French bashing that goes on in the US, except perhaps that it is based on ignorance. Also, American tourists are not always the best behaved tourists (although I think the Germans get top marks in the rude tourist category). I've seen American tourists get drunk and loud in cafes, get into arguments with merchants because they didn't speak English well or didn't accept American currency. People like that deserve harsh treatment in return.

Also, if the French are so anti-Jewish, why do they have a larger Jewish population than any country except Russia, the US and Israel? Why have they had two Jewish Prime Ministers?

 

[jackoroe]

I agree with you Palemale. I spent Christmas week in Paris a couple of years ago. I managed to learn sufficient French to ask for things and to be polite. If you at least attempt to speak their language, they'll more than meet you halfway.

We like to poke fun at them sometimes, but I found them to be very nice.

 

[fasteddy]

Did you just call America an Anglo Saxon nation?

A nation with inhabitants before the Anglo-Saxons and one where African Slaves first colonized America after the british initially retreated because of bad weather? A nation too where the first Europeans were actually Spanish and not Anglo-Saxon?

Maybe you're talking about Iceland?

Another historical revisionist. The nation was created by English immigrants, the Spanish got their asses booted out of any soveriegn claims. As far as the original indigenous folks, they didn't create any soveriegn nations as such, just a bunch small territories barely above primitive clan associations unlike their Central American brethren who actually had borders and entertaining spectacles like public mutilations and sacrifice. Further there is evidence that Celtic's and Scandinavians arrived here well before either the English or the Spanish, but the first claim to real nationhood goes to....................................

The English who actually formed functioning governments and established borders in North America.

 

[palemale]

I agree with you Palemale. I spent Christmas week in Paris a couple of years ago. I managed to learn sufficient French to ask for things and to be polite. If you at least attempt to speak their language, they'll more than meet you halfway.

We like to poke fun at them sometimes, but I found them to be very nice.

True. And in Paris, nearly everyone speaks English anyway and seems happy to do so.

 

[fasteddy]

As far as the actual topic of the post, France declaring war on the Islamic nutcases, I welcome that. France does not have our obsession with the individual and judicial rights of those who attack skyscrapers and kill women and children with car bombs. They are even willing to curb the excesses of the Islamic heretics who defile Mohamed's teachings by restricting public displays in schools. Their judicial system is more focused on the threat that terrorists pose to society than our version where the American left is more concerned with the threat our society poses to Islamic terrorists and their stated goal to kill as many of us as they can.

Plus, the Islamic nutcases will dilute their efforts and try to kill more French now so less Americans will be killed. A real win win for us!