Friends and religion

[Maaaatt]

Hey, sugar boots. I need to get some stuff off my chest.

My best friend's evil girlfriend has converted him to catholacism. Ok, I lied. He was religious before this but not to the extent that he is now. This was fine with me until I decided to bring up the topic of 'religion vs. homosexuality' and asked his opinion on the subject. (I did this because I am a masochist.)

Anyway, his response was "the act of homosexuality is a sin". This annoyed me because before he became religious he would tell me that it isn't a sin etc.

I argued with him (it was more like me screaming at him than us arguing) and eventually broke down (and I don't cry so it was really bad). I acknowledge the fact that the bible states that 'the act' homosexuality is a sin but I don't want him to acknowledge it.

He tells me that being a homosexual isn't a sin, it is the sex part. He tells me that I'm his best friend and he accepts me but he still believes that it's a sin but I'm still mad at him.

I feel like I shouldn't be in a way. I know he cares about me a lot and he has been there for me during the toughest times. He always tells me that he wishes it was easier for homosexuals to find love because he wants me to be happy. He is the sweetest, nicest guy in the universe but his views hurt me.

I think it's because his opinion matters more to me than anyone elses and to hear that he doesn't approve of a part of my life kills me. I think it's also because I feel like he thinks that I'm going to hell if I don't pray for my sins, which is insulting. And if he turns out to be right, I'm going to hell and he's going to heaven. That would suck!

I feel like I don't want to be his friend but I still do. I know I am overreacting but it just wasn't the right time to hear it from him. urggh.

Sorry for the wall of text. Any similar experiences, kind words or a kick up the bum?

 

[rareboy]

It is his problem. Not yours.

He gleefully breaks the laws of Leviticus every single day and doesn't give a shit about it. Most of them, he probably doesn't even think about.

The crux, as it were, of this debate, however, is that the Catholic Church permits sin. It is why there is confession.

So if you masturbate, it is a sin you can confess and then receive forgiveness. You can do this for an entire lifetime. You are not even breaking one of the Commandments, which represent the ultimate law.
Sinners are more likely to get to christian heaven than the cold-hearted dogma driven Pharisees.

The reality of the argument is that Christ had absolutely not one word to say about homosexuality. But he did have a lot to say about other human failings.

Paul is not Christ.

So tell him to fuck off.

 

[Maaaatt]

He acknowledges himself as a sinner, however he prays for his sins. That is the difference between his and mine. I refuse to ask for forgiveness for something that is not wrong, in my opinion.

I told him about leviticus being stupid and non-sensical (don't sleep with a woman during her flow? Don't eat shellfish?!!) and shouldn't be taken into account, however his response was that jesus said that people should not have blind faith or something to that affect - ie: ALL of the bible is relevant, included the old testament.

*sigh* sadness + giant bag of pistachio nuts = not a good mix.

 

[Lube]

Well hanging around him will do nothing good for your mental health. Go find some new friends.

Hopefully, someday he'll come around. But he might not. Nothing you can do about it.

If you were black and your best friend became a member of the Ku Kux Klan, would you continue to be his friend?

Well, I guess it depends. Is he shoving his Catholicism down your throat every time you talk, or is it just a belief but it's never verbalized? Even then knowing how he feels is not good for your psyche.

 

[Maaaatt]

Well hanging around him will do nothing good for your mental health. Go find some new friends.

Hopefully, someday he'll come around. But he might not. Nothing you can do about it.

If you were black and your best friend became a member of the Ku Kux Klan, would you continue to be his friend?

Well, I guess it depends. Is he shoving his Catholicism down your throat every time you talk, or is it just a belief but it's never verbalized? Even then knowing how he feels is not good for your psyche.

Hmm. I have to agree that this is affecting my mental health, however I have to completely disagree with the ku kux klan comparison.

He tells me he loves and accepts me for being gay, however, his religion forbids homosexual sex. He believes that it is a sin. I don't understand why it is a sin when I'm not hurting anyone so it hurts. He doesn't hate gays.

 

[Lube]

Ok, that's why I backtracked a little. He doesn't want you dead. That's a good thing.

But his beliefs still take their toll on you. I'd start widening my circle of friends. You two will drift apart if this keeps up. Maybe he's questioning his own sexuality; the gf isn't helping.

 

[G-Lexington]

I don't know if any of my friends feel I'm being sinful by being gay. Mainly because I don't grill them about it. I feel the fact that they're hanging out with me is proof that even if they feel that way, they think I'm OK anyway.

Lex

 

[DafyddGeraint]

I don't know if any of my friends feel I'm being sinful by being gay. Mainly because I don't grill them about it. I feel the fact that they're hanging out with me is proof that even if they feel that way, they think I'm OK anyway.

Lex

That says it all really. Catholicism is full of weird contradictions and for someone who is to all intents and purposes being indoctrinated with a core set of fundamental beliefs and values it can be a peculiar experience. He seems to be unable to reconcile the fact that on the one hand he is a close friend of a homosexual male, who is not an evil servant of satan, with the religious doctrine that homosexuality is inherantly sinful. Catholicism is ludicrous if you take 'Sin' to its ultimate conclusion - you can end up with a fair whack in purgatory if you forget to pray for forgiveness after visiting the toilet for example!!!

I doubt he is struggling with his sexuality but he is struggling with balancing his morals, ethics and his common sense. he knows you are not a bad person, but when he is told you are its a very difficult position for him to be in. At some point you either have to agree to disagree or reach a compromise of some sorts. As hard as it is you have to accept that as much as he needs to support and accept you, you need to support and accept him. Too many times we judge people for their views, beliefs, morals and ethics and forget that they judge us by the same criteria as well.

The bible is an interesting tool, to gain an insight into Christianity as a core set of fundamental beliefs and principals, but remember that Catholicism is a construct of the Vatican and the Church Hierachy over the last two thousand years. Papal legislation, Ecclesiastical law and historical precident are just as an important part of the Catholic faith as the Bible itself, and for much of the Catholic Church's history have been far more important than the book itself. Just because the Bible doesn't mention it doesn't mean anything.

I just hope your friend comes round to the view held by many within the Protestant Churches that Whilst Homosexuality may not be "desirable" it can be tollerated and that as they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL our sins, we will not be ultimately condemned to infinity in hell for our crimes against God.

 

[KaraBulut]

Hmm. I have to agree that this is affecting my mental health, however I have to completely disagree with the ku kux klan comparison.

He tells me he loves and accepts me for being gay, however, his religion forbids homosexual sex. He believes that it is a sin. I don't understand why it is a sin when I'm not hurting anyone so it hurts. He doesn't hate gays.

The whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing is such a like asking someone, "Do you still beat your wife?". It has that assumption of guilt- that being a homosexual is a sin.

But this isn't about your friend's beliefs. It's about yours.

If you don't believe in yourself and the rightness of what you feel, then you've got a rough road ahead because the world is full of people who will think you wrong and sinful (but who also seem to pick and choose their Bible verses like picking entrees at a cafeteria).

You either agree to disagree with your friend or you can tell him that if he can't accept you for who and what your are, then he's not your friend. Whichever you choose to do- believe it and own it.

 

[hotatlboi]

I don't understand

And you never will, because his position is totally absurd and illogical.

He's the one that actually lacks understanding, not you.

 

[TX-Beau]

This I agree with:

If you want to win his mind back from the dogmas he's decided to take up, the only winning strategy is to be a living counterargument…

This not so much:

… not adamant, but just a good guy trying to live life and do right, who happens to be gay...

OK, if you approach someone who has the attitude that being gay is not a sin, but acting on it is. You have to be careful that you’re not unconsciously bolstering that ridiculous distinction. So if you go into it with the attitude that you’re just a nice guy who happens to be gay – you’re making a milder form of the same distinction. It’s easy for him to step from that attitude, to his own, they don’t contradict each other. You can remain a nice guy, who needs to avoid sin. Because the implication is that being gay is incidental to who you are as a nice guy.

If you want to change his mind, you have to demonstrate the reverse; that you’re a decent gay man who deserves the same chance at happiness everyone else gets. That’s where the unfairness and the contradiction steps in. He thinks that so long as you don’t sleep with other guys, you haven’t committed any sin. So what is gay about you in the first place, nothing, you just have some sinful impulses you need to suppress.

It’s in essence a double blind, they say you can BE gay, you just can’t be GAY. You have to live a life of abstinence and denial to retain the grace of god. The kicker is that ultimately these people only see being gay as a behavioral unacceptability – a sin. One who never sleeps with men isn’t gay (ahem – does that sound like something a celibate, guilty, repressed gay clergy might come up with?) There is no such thing as a person born gay, as in gay as an integral part of your life and love; that doesn’t exist. It’s about your sexual sinfulness and lack of self control, and that’s all.

They will never credit that you find fulfillment and contentment, and happiness in a relationship with another man. They can’t, because if they did, they’d have to question the sacrifice they demand you make. There’s what you have to get him to question.

They don’t credit it with going beyond a sexual act. You have to demonstrate that being a gay man is much more; and you deserve the same chance they get to find relationships that will fulfill your life.

I don’t know if I’ve explained that clearly. Oh well.

Look, whatever you do, you’re eventually going to hit rough water with this guy. When you find a guy you want to date, he’s probably going to have an opinion on that. If you start dating a lot he’s going to have an opinion about that. Even if he never says anything to you – the judgment is still going to be there.

What to do, well, I’d probably have a discussion with him about what he thinks being gay is all about. Then I’d leave it. I wouldn’t try to argue the bible – every Christian denomination has its own slippery justifications for why they can ignore parts of the bible and you can’t. Plus you can’t argue faith with reason anyway.

I suppose it comes down to how much you want to be friends. I predict a swift end to that if either one of you tries actively to convert the other.

 

[ericwhitney]

assuming he's not a drag to hang around, if he's important to you and you can forgive him for his choice, why don't you agree to disagree and then never discuss it again? i have friends who are republicans, investment bankers, vegans, hunters, baptists, etc. and that's what we do. life is way more interesting with a wide variety of friends - no need to blow him off over a little ignorance and superstition.

if he's a drag and gets on your case, you'll feel better if you show some sack and say adios. I mean come on.

 

[rareboy]

I still think telling him to Fuck Off is the best approach.

 

[TX-Beau]

Basically you want him to lie to you and himself...The act is a sin. It says so multiple times in the bible. And for the fact that he didn't believe that before and believes it now shows that he learned something. So you can't be mad at him for that ....You can't be mad at someone for learning, something that is said in all bibles...its the truth. And why do you look for approval from anyone?

It's also a sin to eat lobster, wear a poly cotton blend, or touch a football. Slaves should obey their masters, disobedient children should be executed. Women should be silent in public, wives should obey their husbands. There's no universal agreement about what in the bible is literal, and what is not.

Each denomination has it's own ideas about what can be ignored, and what can't.

 

[TX-Beau]

please LOL...we are under a different covenant...and Gods PRINCIPLES still apply to us.. So its not picking or choosing its different Law covenants given to us by God.

Huh? That's your opinion no doubt. Other Christians disagree, Why should anyone take your word for it?

Which is the point.

 

[rareboy]

You can't be mad at someone for learning, something that is said in all bibles...its the truth.

What a load of horseshit.

It is a constructed version of 'truth'. Only the intellectually and spiritually lame regard the modern version of the judeo christian bible as literal truth.

 

[TX-Beau]

And they are not TRUE christians...those are hypocrites. No TRUE Christian can pick and choose. You have to recognize all the laws, and principles that we are currently under. If you don't your not a Christian.

LOL NO TRUE SCOTSMAN!!!!!!!

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/no-true-scotsman/




Who the hell are you to decide who is a True Christian™ and who isn't?

 

[G-Lexington]

>>>You can't be mad at someone for learning, something that is said in all bibles...its the truth.

Then riddle me this, Batman. Read the gospel according to Matthew, and give me a two- or three-sentence summary as to what Jesus was like, and who he was preaching to. Then read the gospel according to John, and do the same thing. Then tell me why the two don't correspond at all.

There's some good stuff in the Bible. But you'd best be wary of anybody who starts flogging the word "truth".

Lex

 

[KaraBulut]

Guys...

Just a reminder- as moderator - that this section of the forum is intended to provide advice and support to the person who started the thread.

If you want to debate theology and Christian interpretation of Old Testament and New Testament, there's ongoing discussions about that in the Religion forum.

Please direct comments to OP and don't get caught up in back and forth discussions about religion.

 

[Maaaatt]

I doubt he is struggling with his sexuality but he is struggling with balancing his morals, ethics and his common sense. he knows you are not a bad person, but when he is told you are its a very difficult position for him to be in. At some point you either have to agree to disagree or reach a compromise of some sorts. As hard as it is you have to accept that as much as he needs to support and accept you, you need to support and accept him. Too many times we judge people for their views, beliefs, morals and ethics and forget that they judge us by the same criteria as well.

I just hope your friend comes round to the view held by many within the Protestant Churches that Whilst Homosexuality may not be "desirable" it can be tollerated and that as they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for ALL our sins, we will not be ultimately condemned to infinity in hell for our crimes against God.

You hit the nail on the head on the first paragraph of this quote. Thank you.

However, I must stress this to ALL jubers. He doesn't believe it is a sin to be a homosexual, to kiss the same sex or to love the same sex. He believes that it is a sin to have male-male or female-female sex.

If you don't believe in yourself and the rightness of what you feel, then you've got a rough road ahead because the world is full of people who will think you wrong and sinful (but who also seem to pick and choose their Bible verses like picking entrees at a cafeteria).

You either agree to disagree with your friend or you can tell him that if he can't accept you for who and what your are, then he's not your friend. Whichever you choose to do- believe it and own it.

I know. I don't care about what anyone else things, though. The people that are in my life are loved very much. I put everyone I care about on a high pedestal so it hurts to have some disagree with an aspect of my life that I can't change.

He thinks that so long as you don’t sleep with other guys, you haven’t committed any sin. So what is gay about you in the first place, nothing, you just have some sinful impulses you need to suppress.

It’s in essence a double blind, they say you can BE gay, you just can’t be GAY. You have to live a life of abstinence and denial to retain the grace of god. The kicker is that ultimately these people only see being gay as a behavioral unacceptability – a sin. One who never sleeps with men isn’t gay (ahem – does that sound like something a celibate, guilty, repressed gay clergy might come up with?) There is no such thing as a person born gay, as in gay as an integral part of your life and love; that doesn’t exist. It’s about your sexual sinfulness and lack of self control, and that’s all

Exactly! Thank you, TX-beau! I'm going to tell him what you said.

Look, whatever you do, you’re eventually going to hit rough water with this guy. When you find a guy you want to date, he’s probably going to have an opinion on that. If you start dating a lot he’s going to have an opinion about that. Even if he never says anything to you – the judgment is still going to be there.

This is why I've been questioning my response to his views and my feelings post agrument. He won't 'judge' it. He will acknowledge that the bible says it's a sin but he won't ever say "that's wrong/evil/disgusting" or even merely think it. This is why I believe I'm in the wrong in a way. He tells me gay sex is beautiful and he wants me to love somebody and that I can do whatever I want with a guy and he will be happy for me but his religion believes that it's wrong and he is not going to question it. He even says he wishes it wasn't like that. Arrgh he's such a ****. Thanks for your response!

assuming he's not a drag to hang around, if he's important to you and you can forgive him for his choice, why don't you agree to disagree and then never discuss it again? i have friends who are republicans, investment bankers, vegans, hunters, baptists, etc. and that's what we do. life is way more interesting with a wide variety of friends - no need to blow him off over a little ignorance and superstition.

He wants us to never bring up religion again. He wants to push this aside but I fear that I might resent him if we do not resolve an unresolvable situation.
And, no, he's not a drag. He's so much fun to hang around.


Thanks everyone for your replys. I'm going to talk to him some time on the weekend to discuss it with him some more. When he asked for us to push it aside I told him I'll think about it and that it won't be easy. I told him I could even stop being friends with him if I choose to do so. So end result would either be that I manage to agree to disagree, push the talk out of my mind or end the friendship. Tenderhooks lol.