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Funny thing about the Devil...

Given the accuracy of transmission of the texts over thousands of years, and the accuracy of translations through Jerome, it amuses me no end that this little "oops!" crept in. It is commonly agreed by translators that, given what they had to work with, the men who did the King James Version did perhaps the best work ever -- yet here is this little mistake that has led to so much folklore.
Personally I find it interesting that mainstream Christianity has never paid a great deal of attention to the devil; it is the cults and sects which haul him out to frighten people.
 
Much of what many Christians "think" they know about Lucifer owes its origins more to Milton's Paradise Lost than to the Bible.
 
An interesting paradox is that the newer translations came from older and clearer texts than the King James Version authors had available. In modern scholarship, the KJV is considered one of the most flawed translations.

In any case. I agree about the "Lucifer" point. This was transliterated from latin, meaning bright one. It clearly refers to the king of Babylon, using "garden" and "god" imagery to accentuate poetically the point of the prophecy...how high his position was and how low it would fall.
 
An amusing and interesting article. I do believe in an entity called "Satan" or the "Devil" and that this entity existed prior to the creation of man. I'm well aware that some people don't believe in such a being and that's fine with me. I do believe.
 
You know the saying about the Devil and not existing. I'd apply it here it doesn't matter who or what he is evil has been around Jesus cleaned those with "devils" in them as did the Apostals (sp).
 
JDsmagik said:
Fascinating. The whole King James version of The Bible is a piece meal of mythology, in my opinion, anyway.

The faithful will go to their graves swearing it is totally "the word of God," though, and with no proof whatsoever, actually, plenty of common sense evidence to suggest that it was all made-up.

Ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is permanent and believing in a 600 year old translation of scripts put together in secret from thousands of years (or not) before that, is just stupid.

Again, this is my opinion. It has been my experience that one has to be careful about disagreeing with that book, because these "Christians" are extremely volitale and dangerous when you try and point out flaws in their belief system.

I've been hit, had my hand stomped on, and seen blind rage in the eyes of these people when I counter their argument that God gives you "free will" to choose, when I say that "pick me or burn in hell forever" is hardly free will!

They always freak because they know it makes no sense.

Without the mythology of the devil, religion loses a major way to keep membership in the faith. Fear is a great motivator and works wonders for all cults.
Click to expand...

You did hit on something JD--the King James bible.

Unfortunately the King James edition of the bible, while good in that it put the scripture in the English vernacular, is probably one of the worst translations of many of the early Hebrew and Greek writings.

The translators had a specific mission in mind and that was to justify their beliefs; they interpreted the scriptures and then translated accordingly to justify this preconceived belief.

In addition to not being as accurate as possible, who still talks like the translation? I have had many a knock-down, dragged-out fight over that translation however; some proclaim it was the original writings!
 
Hi Sweetcheex,

"Satan" means adversary. A satan is any angel who intends to obstruct what you are doing. For example, if you are about to do evil, and God sends an angel to stop you, that angel is a satan.

Ha'Satan is the name of an angel (or, rather, the name of a role an angel fulfills) who accuses souls before God at the judgment after death.

I don't think the snake in Genesis has to be Satan. There're other ways to look at it.
 
Thanks. I may pick up that book. Right now I have An Encyclopedia of Angels by Rosemary Ellen Guiley.

I don't think the Bible ever really specifies what a demon is. It does mention a war in heaven, but 1. how literally can we take it? and 2. does it specify that rebel angels and demons are the same thing? I haven't looked at those passages in some time, so maybe you or someone else has fresher knowledge. I remember that one third of all angels in heaven defected.

I've read that Lucifer actually stems from the Babylonian god Helel, but I don't know any of the details of the theory.

What you said about Gnosticism is right. Sophia decided to create life without her husband. She gave birth to the Demiurge, Ialdabaoth, a demented form of life that declared himself the one true God. He created the universe we live in, made Adam and Eve, and in general is the God of Genesis. Sophia, or Christ in an alternate version, came in the form of a snake to rescue Adam and Eve. The real "one true God" is way higher than the Demiurge or even Sophia.
 
Thanks. I'll take a look at those sites when I can, but it probably won't be for a while.
 
Lucifer may be fitting for his role when he was an angel, but the technicality of the term makes little sense. It cannot have appeared as "Lucifer" in the original texts, because Lucifer is a Roman name. If you look, Christ is also refered to as the "Morning Star" which would mean that both teh angel and Christ had the same name. I don't believe that Lucifer is the correct name and technically, all of the angelic names should be non-canonical if they were given later outside of the original codicies based on the duties of the angel.
 
the reality of modern day religion is that ultimately, all our parables, myths, gods, demons, and practices are simply bastardisations of much older religous ideas.

i hate to say it, but the church is possibly one of the worst perpretrators. far from the example of lucifer being exclusive, there are literally hundreds of ideas in the bible that are corruptions of old religions in order to discredit them. for instance, there is a passage in the bible, which describes God, which is more or less a word for word copy of a text written by the ancient egyptian "heretic" paraoh Akhenaten, who advocated monotheism. Christian festivals are based on old pagan festivals, such as Christmas - Yule, and Saturnalia. Biblical scholars are becoming more supportive of the idea that jesus was not born on december 25th .. not even in december, as the shephards would not have been tending to their flocks in the fields in mid-winter.

most of the christian demons, and fallen angels are bastardisations of old gods .. theologists accept there is a strong link between "Satan" - the christian devil, and "Enki" an ancient sumerian creator god. modern society views goddesses such as Hecate, and Lilith as evil, old hags, whereas in ancient greece, Hecate was a respected goddess of wisdom and in many beliefs, Lilith is actually a protector of women's rights etc. The list goes on

im not attacking the church per se, its just a fact that as one society, or way of life beings to dominate over another, its beliefs adapt, in a way that tends to discredit the old way of life of the conquered society. just as when the romans conquered egypt, and attempted to toally eradicate their religion, which resulted in the loss of the egyptian mother tongue for almost two thousand years.

religion itself can be a very good thing .. it is, as always, the intention of the individual that can be bad. early on in the christian church, men such as bishop Arimeas *don't know if thats spelt right* decided that religion had to be a set guideline, etc. The early church was very much centred around God being within man, and all around, as opposed to being in grand churches, with bishops and priests.

until religion is free of such dictatorial individuals, and people are allowed to make their own spiritual choices and decisions, its a sad fact that religions will go out of their way to discredit one another.
 
Hi Jaime,

I believe Chrismas is really supposed to be around June 14. It was moved to Mithras' birthday in December. Mithras was a Roman god and his cult was an early rival of Christianity.

Hecate was really interesting because she was both a maiden and a crone. The positive interpretation of Lillith, I think, is a modern one though. I think she was originally a bad guy. But I could be wrong.
 
As far as I know, Hecate, maiden and crone for the two states of the moon, was the Greek goddess of the night, later merged with Diana in Roman lore to become the tri-goddess in the cult of Diana, Phoebe, and Hecate.

I did a little reasearch on Lilith, and it seems that her earliest existence is defined as a demon maiden in the epic of Gilgamesh.

The Christmas/birth of Christ difference is pretty well accepted where I am, since it doesn't make the holiday any less important.
 
well there is one theory among biblical and jewish scholars, and in fact, i believe there is a sect of judaism which accepts the theory *though i may be wrong* that Lilith was in fact the first wife of Adam *before Eve*, but that she fled the garden of Eden when she refused to take the more submissive role in sex with Adam. I think the story goes that God then sent two angels to bring her back, but i think *though again, im not totally sure* tyhat she either killed them, or threatened to kill them. Thus Eve was created "from Adam's rib".

Personally, this is the interpretation which i go with, and as a male feminist *lol* , and also someone with very spiritual beliefs *which i wouldnt necessarily label "Pagan", but i certainly practise witchcraft*, i have a lot of respect for Lilith - even for just what she epresents to me.

xx
 
but again, even the fact that this legend exists is surely an example of how all religions are inextricably linked - the same names, stories, characters etc.
 
As usual, i can only speak from experience. about 5 years ago i did some aid work in Romania. One night, as i switched the light off in the huge bedroom i was sleeping in - i was suddenly aware of not 'being alone'.

So, naturally, and without fear i might add - i opened my eyes to check it out. At the other end of the room were four 'beings' three tall, huge beings and one short being with his hands folded across his middle.

I don't know how i know this but it was 'related' to me that the smallest being was in fact in charge of the three larger beings - and that these four had been put 'on my case' so to speak to ensure that my path through life was as obstructed and painful as possible.

They were humanoid - (they all had shoulder length hair) and white gowns - i couldn't see their face or their legs - not the 'messy demons' portrayed in Christian literature - but all were focused upon me. Then it was like someone touched my head and i fell into a deep sleep. I was scared for just a few seconds and that was it.

That's an actual account of what i saw and what was communicated - No horns, no goatee beards - no red scales - but very chilling.

So - i believe that there is an emnity out there - i've seen it with my own eyes.
 
Hi Nonimus,

That sounds like a really creepy experience. I think that demons in literature, television, etc. are scariest when they're most like us.

I had an experience myself. I was talking on the phone about two in the morning. My room was dark, with only a little light coming through one window. I started to get a creepy feeling, which I told my friend on the phone. She said I should put on a garnet necklace she gave me because it's protective. I got up to get it, and when I turned around I saw the silhouette of a person against the window. It was just the head and shoulders. I punched at it, hitting nothing, and then didn't see it any more. I turned the light on and there was nothing at all between where I had been standing and the window.

Do you feel like the beings you encountered are still there? Have you tried talking to angels to counter these other beings?

Luminum,

I heard that in Zoroastrianism, Lilith is said to have "lain" with Ahriman, the devil. I'm not sure just how Zoroastrianism, Judaism, and the older Sumerian/Babylonian beliefs are related. I'm assuming the Epic of Gilgamesh predates Judaism and Zoroastrianism though.

I hadn't heard that about Pheobe. Thanks.
 
Jaime,

Yeah, it's pretty standard that Lilith was the first wife of Adam. If you read Genesis, it says that God created man and woman. Then in the next chapter, he takes a rib out of Adam to make Eve. So it can be interpreted that there are two wives.

Actually, the two different creation stories in Genesis completely contradict one another, leading some to believe that God made two creations.

After she left Adam, she went down to live by the Red Sea. She's believed to have mothered all other demons by impregnating herself from men's wet dreams. She also just loves to kill babies, so Jews hang charms over their sleeping babies.
 
I was under the understanding that when Cain was dispelled, it was he and Lilith and all their spawn that were the source of all demons.
 
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