g0ys.org (Thoughts)

[blackbeltninja]

Re: g0y?

Hard to respect the opinion that "gay" means glory holes and bath houses.

Assuming HIV wasn't the pandemic that it currently is, would gay still involve as many glory holes and bath houses as it did back in the 70s and early 80s?

Unfortunately, these are icons of recent times. And given the nature of some of the posts we have seen in here ("name a good bath house for my birthday" was a recent one) in my short history with JUB, I should wager that gay and bath houses crop up together in the same paragraph far too frequently for us to be righteously indignant about it.

Even the average straight looks down at the watered-down hetero equivalent, the singles bar, with some measure of disdain. One wonders if we shouldn't be doing much the same.

-d-

 

[JackFTwist]

Re: g0y?

Even the average straight looks down at the watered-down hetero equivalent, the singles bar, with some measure of disdain. One wonders if we shouldn't be doing much the same.

-d-

Not to argue, friend, I don't know that is true. I have never seen a singles bar or a strip club go broke.

They have those things, we have our things, and they are all meat markets and meat markets always have customers. Nothing to be proud of, but, sometimes those places are just fun.

Also not so sure about the "watered down hetero" comment. Maybe I've been to really great strip clubs, massage parlors, and singles bars and really lousy gay entertainment zones, but I haven't seen anyting watered down that they have from what we have.

All that being said, I do agree with the gist of what you are saying.

And I'd still love to go to a good bathhouse, with a good friend for my coupling needs. Glory holes though, those are a bit too std scary for me, and that type of anonymous desparate sex I hope I never need.

 

[blackbeltninja]

Re: g0y?

Also not so sure about the "watered down hetero" comment. Maybe I've been to really great strip clubs, massage parlors, and singles bars and really lousy gay entertainment zones, but I haven't seen anyting watered down that they have from what we have.

"Watered down" in that you can't really have sex in the actual average singles bar, unlike the average bath house. Oh, and the people seem to, you know, not be naked. I think you probably have to work a little harder in the singles bar.

Still, I take your points.

-d-

 

[Soilwork]

Re: g0y?

My Last word on the subject.

If we allow the Evangelical Christians, Nazis, Republicans and Homophobes to get us to equate the word "gay" SO much with bath houses, glory holes and drugs that we refuse to call ourselves "gay", they've won. And we've lost.

In the 90s, people started to try to use "queer" instead of "gay". It never relly caught on.

But that was supposed to unite us... "Lesbian, gay, and bi" are all "Queer.

This "g0y" thing is all about separating ourselves from people we look down on.. they're too effeminate and they have sex in a way I don't like.. so I'm not going to even use the same word as they do.




this time Jasun REALLY has spoken.

 

[MidnightPrism]

Re: g0y?

If you fuck men then you are GAY

A big cock sucking, ass fucking, man loving FAG


g0y pffffft

 

[RenaissanceMan]

Re: g0y?

"G0y" sounds even more gay than "gay" itself.

But "Jasun has spoken", so I have no need to try to express myself when my ideas have already been expressed much more clearly.

Gay is a word which describes someone according to what one likes...g0y seems to be one that describes someone according to what they dislike...

It's guys into guys but not into anal activities and effeminate behaviour.

I guess we should also have a word for straight men who dislike typical "straight-acting" behaviour...(ie. "straight-acting" men). If I was straight, I certainly wouldn't want to use the same word for my sexual orientation as some nasty, dumb, straight, male couch potato.

 

[FirePhoenix]

Re: g0y?


Great another new word to learn.
If I ever meet someone who says they are goy I think I will just throw my purse at them and run.

 

[Swellegant]

Re: g0y?

OK, so here's the thing: if you don't want to be like those gays, then don't be; but don't you dare look down your noses at those gays, because those gays are the ones who've fought for your right to be the kind of gay you want to be.

It's not the closeted and the discreet who've been working the last thirty-five years for your right to be gay in public without losing your job or spending your remaining years in a prison or an asylum... it's all us queens and sluts and and out-loud-and-proud queers who finally managed to get all of the sodomy laws in the country overturned.

I wish to have patience with those for whom coming out is a process rather than an epiphany. But I'm growing short of patience. And this "g0y" bullshit is pushing me ever closer to the edge of that patience.

It's the stupidest thing I've heard all day, and this is including the half-hour I spent with my lunatic mother.

You know, sometimes it's pretty easy to get Soilwork riled up; but when you start pissing me off, the Mother Teresa of JUB, you're treading on thin ice.

 

[Paladin]

Re: g0y?

Coming out is a process rather than an epiphany. Well put.

In the broader context, for society itself to "come out", or give birth to the idea that sexuality comes in all places on the spectrum, and that's OK - believe it or not, we are still in that process.

And the birthing process is often painful.

 

[Soilwork]

Re: g0y?

I'm so glad I'm not the sole voice of reason here.

Robert... I really do love you.

 

[axlsergei]

Re: g0y?

This thread makes for great entertainment. I'm not one to go through life with the word GAY stamped in my forehead, but if somebody asks, I'll tell them right away, that I'm gay, or that I like boys (or men), which is the same thing. This g0y thing is stupid and I predict that it's not here to stay.

 

[hotdog1846]

Re: g0y?

And while I fault society for constructing such a limited definition, one must acknowledge that the same out and proud gays who brought homosexuality into the national spotlight in the 70s and 80s, fueled a negative image of gays by choosing to fight for the right to have uninhibited sex over the more important issues of acceptance, equality, and the right to marry.

I'm not too young to remember a time when, in certain cities, there was a gay identity crisis, it seemed. It went something like this:

What is "gay"? It's a man who has sex with men.

How do we define ourselves? We're gay.

Is there anything else special about us? No.

Therefore, since having sex with men is what makes us different and therefore a defined minority, let's have lots of sex with men!

Now, I didn't actually live through that -- I only saw it played out through the media. Anybody have any better information to bear?

And -- I think "g0y" is just silly. I've heard "gay" used to refer to *such* a wide array of practices and orientations, I think it's inclusive enough for now. I wouldn't be surprised to find the proponents of "g0y" are really the same married men looking for "clean, discreet" encounters.

 

[Swellegant]

Re: g0y?

What some of us don't seem to grasp is that THEY (meaning all of those people who think "gay" is a derogatory term) don't have the right to take our words, our identities, or our rights away from us. It is THEY who are wrong... and by caving in and abandoning the word, the identity, the rights to their ignorance and prejudices, we are allowing THEM to dictate how we should live our lives. How is that right? How can you allow that?

Hollisterdude, to whom have you been listening? Where do you get your facts? It sounds to me like you're listening to THEM.

Yes, the Gay Liberation Movement of the 70s and early 80s was expressed in sexual freedom, because that's what was on the agenda then. It was the Sexual Revolution, and our fight was a piece of that. Because, you see, it wasn't our sexuality that was the problem then, it was the sex we were having. You could be as gay as you wanted, but homosexual activity itself was illegal. Gay marriage was being discussed as early as 1969, but we were so far away from it that there wasn't any point in really discussing it.

Things have to happen in a certain order. Same-sex marriage was not a viable position until and unless same-sex sex was legal, which it wasn't in thirty-some-odd states up until a couple of years ago. And that couldn't happen unless we made a point of getting our sex-lives legitimized specifically as sex.

The legitimacy of our sex-lives is that nobody, and certainly not THEM, has the right to tell us what our sex lives shall be like. Monogamy is great, but I am not going to be limited to monogamy when my straight brothers and sisters are not. We're talking about equal opportunity and rights here, not a concession towards heteronormative behaviors dictated to us by THEM.

Furthermore, closing the baths did nothing to hamper the spread of HIV and AIDS in the 80s. All it did was drive the activity underground where ignorance and self-destructive self-hatred not only allowed but encouraged its spread. Yes, the gay leaders of the day fought to keep the bathhouses open, where they could be used as leadership and education centers.

One of the oldest existent bathhouses in America is the Steamworks here in Berkeley, which has done more to educate people about AIDS and prevent its spread over the last twenty years than almost any other institution... which it could never have done if it had been shut down and all its patrons flushed out into the parks and the alleys where they couldn't be reached.

The current "celebration" of barebacking is one of the most psychologically disturbing trends in our modern culture: it is nothing but nihilism, self-destruction, Russian Roulette, and as far as I'm concerned its sole purpose is to act out the hatred we've taken into ourselves from outside. It's not healthy and it plays right into THEIR hands.

But what are you going to do? Tell someone how he or she should live his or her life? Are you willing to become the Morality Police? Can your morals stand up to that kind of scrutiny? Are you that sure you're right?

Personally, what I refuse to do is allow THEM to dictate anything to me, especially my identity and what words I chose to put on as a label or classification for myself and my community. I'm gay, goddammit, and no ignorant prejudiced hetero moron is going to tell me that that's a bad word.

Fuck THEM, I say, and the horse THEY rode in on.

 

[Soilwork]

Re: g0y?

Oh, ok.

you're morally superior to gay people because you don't have sex on the first date and although you can't get thrown out of your apartment or fired from your job for being gay.. you can't get thrown in jail for having sex or spending the rest of your life in a mental institution being shocked and tortured.. well, you certianly don't want people to think you're one of THOSE people.

Funny, I remember doing a lot of activism when I was young. I fought for equality and families and rights, but I don't remember fighting for the right to have uninhibited sex at all. you must have seen that in an HBO movie. A very slanted and historically incorrect HBO movie.

so you'll just be g0y or g/y or g@y or ghey or maybe even gai. But never gay.. because that would mean that people would think that you're a freak.

I don't go to bath houses or stick my dick in glory holes, but I'm still gay there, sport, and if you wanna reap the benefit of all that we've done for you without ever allowing yourself to be grouped with us, there's not much you can do.







But you may as well know that most gay people will think you're being an idiot and straight people will all still think you're gay but giggle at how silly it is to use words like "g0y" when we all know it's just "gay" spelled wrong.

 

[axlsergei]

Re: g0y?

I believe that the "gay" label has been hijacked and stolen by the media and majority to label and define men with a sexual attraction for other men as a marginalized "other" driven by lust and dirty sexual practices.

I have to partially agree with you on this. But if you feel such a strong urge to dissociate with what you perceive to be the negative connotations of the term GAY, why don’t you try instead to preach with your own example, and show the world, or al least those around you, those you get in contact with on a daily basis, that gay doesn’t have to equal rampant promiscuity, glory holes, bathhouses, etc.

I know I’ve being doing so since I came out a few years ago; I had to educate friends, coworkers (I used to work as a server on a few restaurants and you wouldn’t believe what some of the little people working there used to believe the meaning of gay was), and some of my family. I especially had to dismantle some of the myths surrounding being gay to my mother. It wasn’t that I was saying all of those things were wrong per se. It just wasn’t me, and I wanted them to see that I was just the same guy they always knew, only that I fancy/fall in love with boys, no girls.

Nowadays, and unless I’m totally deluded, no one that’s not really close to me is wondering about my sexuality, unless I want them, or need them, to know. I don’t have to go out of my way to show the world that I’m out and proud. I can’t be something that I’m not, and I don’t think coming out as a gay man has changed me a lot in the long run.

 

[Soilwork]

Re: g0y?

Why continue seperating yourself from society as a whole with a "gay" label? Why qualify brothers and sisters with the word straight? Why differentiate? We all want the same thing, make it clear by ending labels and being inclusive.

OK.. first of all, "gay" is not a label. It's just the word used to describe what I am. Like "Asian" would be used to describe a person from Asia.

Second, we do NOT all want the same thing.

Everyone wants different things, and all I want is for everyone to have the rights to get and do what they want.

By divorcing yourself from the gay community (and sorry.. you're gay.. you have sex only with men.. that's pretty gay there, pal), you're not helping.. you're making it worse.

"see," they'll say, "Even THEY don't want to be gay.. why should we give them anyting if they're just going to turn around and be straight next year?"

And we'll get sent packing.

sorry, but this arguement you're making is ridiculous, and it just shows the deep self-hatred that I'm sorry you have. But you have it.

 

[Swellegant]

Re: g0y?

Thinking in terms of US and THEM is the problem. We are altogether in this. No one can achieve equality unless we are all onboard. Why continue seperating yourself from society as a whole with a "gay" label? Why qualify brothers and sisters with the word straight? Why differentiate? We all want the same thing, make it clear by ending labels and being inclusive.

I should clarify my statements... THEM isn't "straight people"... I don't have a problem with heterosexuals at all, many of my friends and all of my family (that I know about) are straight and I love them dearly. The THEM I claim as my enemies are people, anybody, who believes they have the right to sit in judgement on me, or to judge me by someone else's behavior. "THEY" are ignorant hateful bigots... and, sadly, not all of THEM are straight.

Furthermore, I did not create the US and THEM... THEY did. I will continue to play by that rule until they stop.

We are not all in this together: we are engaged in battle. Unfortunately, it's difficult to see who is on what side, or even how to get us all on one side... for though I would love to be all on one side, I will not cede anything in order to get there, not my label or my behavior. This is not a negotiation.

Returning to the label thing, I have a lot of labels: male, American, Californian, Oaklander, Chinese, Irish, German, Norwegian, secretary, gay, alcoholic, ex-smoker, bipolar, English Bachelor, aggressive driver, drag-queen, registered Independent, brunet, Capricorn... it goes on and on.

We are all individuals, and we all wear a collection of little labels. By differentiating this one little label, this little pink label that seems to be so distasteful to some of us, we allow the people who try to oppress us because of that label to dictate the terms of the battle. We are essentially agreeing with our oppressors and allowing them to oppress us.

Is there an US and THEM because we wish to be separate and apart? No, my dear, it is because THEY have pushed us away. We group together for protection and for community because we are at war with people who would do us harm.

Do you suppose all those straight judges and legislators did what they did just because they woke up one morning and decided, "Gee, these sodomy laws are kind of silly, let's get rid of them"? No, they did it because we jumped up and down, we marched, we lobbied, we educated our families and our friends, and we made them see that the laws were wrong. We did not negotiate with them, we fought them. And we've won battle after battle, but we're not done yet.

When the day comes that there is no US and THEM, when the day comes that we don't need to be "straight" or "gay" unless we're talking about our sex partners, when we are all brothers and sisters together, then we'll be done, then the battle will be over. Not before then.

I will continue to exercise my patience in waiting for reluctant homosexuals to come to terms with themselves, but my patience is not infinite. As far as I'm concerned, "g0ys" are traitors to the cause.

 

[RenaissanceMan]

Re: g0y?

Why not... I am sexually attracted to men, "not gay". Why use 1 word when I can use 4?

But then men, hmmm...wouldn't want to label a human being with a penis "a man", it might make him feel different from women...I'll call him a human being with a penis, and her a human being with a vagina (the difference still seems to be obvious, but at least the some of the words used in the description are the same).

But now human being...

(why do I not get this "no labels" fad at all?)

 

[Johnny Yen]

Re: g0y?

Baby - I'm what ever you want me to be - now off with your pants!!!

 

[lunarus]

Re: g0y?

This g0y thing is no different then "I'm not gay, I'm just sexual." It is an attempted to look down on those they find offensive in the community.

And one must always remember when one turns their nose up on another and has great disdain for another. It usually indicates that they see themselves in said person.

And all this talk about bath houses and such, it would seem dear posters that it is only the simple gay that has the corner on the sexual deviance in this area as another thread put it. What about married heteros that swing, swap wives, go on sex vacations and the myriad other such sexual activities they engage in. So no us lowly gays do not have that market cornered.

And as far as it being linked to deviant and unhealthy practices, why yes you are right but it is not by those that want to help us. It is by those that want to HARM us because they have nothing else to do but, and bear with me here, seemingly convince the younger gay generation here that it is some how wrong to even belong to your own community.

So in the short term it seems like they are winning. There are however a few of us here, there and every where that are getting sick and tired of all this bull shit and are willing to put the truth out there.

Learn to love your community with all it's beauty and all of it's ugliness. There is a reason the gay community is represented by a rainbow flag. It is diverse not one color. But by reading what some of you put you seem like you would rather have just one color.