GAO learns truth about guns and the internet

[Kulindahr]

"Anyone can buy a gun on the internet!" is an oft-heard claim. Well, the GAO looked into it, and found out that the reality is it doesn't happen -- in fact, some ISPs shut down their accounts when they tried, while in not a single case did they actually manage to buy a gun over the internet, to a large extent because gun owners don't sell to people they don't trust.

read here and here.

No gun owners will be surprised by this, even the illegal ones -- who know it can't be done, and in fact that it's easier to steal one from a cop (or from cars parked by "gun free" zones because they know the law requires owners to make their guns available to criminals that way).

 

[bendted]

Oops, looks like GAYO missed one:
http://www.unclehenrys.com/search/Guns?display=grid

A cursory look on craigslist though surprisingly came up dry.

Oh well, remain calm as there's always the gun show loophole.

 

[opinterph]

The Government Accountability Office is an agency of the US Congress and is authorized to investigate any activity that involves the expenditure of federal funds. Generally speaking, the GAO does not decide what to investigate on its own initiative – the agency responds to specific requests by members of Congress. The Internet Firearm Sales: ATF Enforcement Efforts and Outcomes of GAO Covert Testing report (which was linked in the opening post) was requested by Elijah E. Cummings (D-MD), Brian Schatz (D-HI), and Elizabeth Warren (D-MA).

I think we should take solace in the results of the investigation with regard to the refusal of federal firearms licensees and reputable private sellers to transact gun sales over the [traditional] Internet (AKA Surface Web) without also requiring face-to-face contact between the seller (or an agent acting on the seller’s behalf) and the buyer.

At the same time, I think one element of the investigation that should cause us alarm involves the GAO’s efforts to purchase guns over the so-called, “Dark Web” in which content is “intentionally concealed and requires specific computer software to gain access.” It is notable that GAO agents only attempted to purchase guns over the Dark Web in 7 of the 72 events they measured. Of those 7, 2 were successful and resulted in the physical acquisition of an AR-15 and an Uzi. That represents a “success rate” of more than 25 percent over the Dark Web.

Another feature of the investigation with respect to attempted purchases over the Surface Web is that GAO agents overtly represented that they were prohibited from purchasing firearms. That means a background check would clearly reveal their prohibited status and it also means anyone who sold such a person a firearm would be committing a federal felony. If a person is truly prohibited from a purchase and that person is intent to gain access to a firearm anyway – it is doubtful they would be forthcoming with respect to their prohibited status.

So yes the report offers comfort on one level, but it does not genuinely suggest “that the reality is [unlawful gun purchases on the Internet] doesn't happen.”

FWIW~ My search for comments about the GAO findings from the Congressional members who originally requested the report did not produce any results.

 

[TX-Beau]

I know several people who have bought or sold guns off Craigslist, it isn't illegal hereabouts.

 

[opinterph]

I know several people who have bought or sold guns off Craigslist, it isn't illegal hereabouts.

As the GAO report states:

There are no laws that specifically regulate firearms transactions facilitated by the Internet. Rather, firearms transactions facilitated by the Internet are subject to the same legal requirements and regulations as traditional firearms sales.

And …

Individuals who are not engaged in the business of dealing in firearms may not legally sell firearms to other unlicensed individuals under certain circumstances. For example, a transaction between unlicensed individuals would be illegal if the seller knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the buyer is legally prohibited from possessing firearms or is a resident of a different state than the seller.

 

[SeaCore]

I'll need to read the full report later, but what about buying gun parts?

Could someone purchase a gun by getting it in pieces?

I'm curious how 3D printing a gun will impact the future. It'll be hard to deal with if people can basically download a gun. No gatekeepers. And there's no way to prevent the spread of files if it did happen.

 

[ski_nxs]

I sold a couple of things recently on Craigslist and had several people ask if I was interested in trading for guns. Of course I'm in Kansas where you get a gun with your first drivers license, JK not really.

I'm curious about the 3D printing as well. Can the plastics used in the process stand up to the rigors of a gun firing? Scary to think one could print a gun, use it in a crime and melt it down to destroy the evidence.

 

[TX-Beau]

I sold a couple of things recently on Craigslist and had several people ask if I was interested in trading for guns. Of course I'm in Kansas where you get a gun with your first drivers license, JK not really...

Yeah, I've seen that also. Apparently one is supposed to have a form of some kind to sell or buy, but I don't know how often it's used, if it needs to be filed somewhere, or what it actually entails. I do know that the people I know who sold guns off craigslist wouldn't have if the buyer TOLD them they were a felon. I also don't know if there is some kind of check requirement for private citizens, logic would say no, but who knows, and if there is, I can't see how one would enforce or accommodate it.

So the question really is, if you just trade a gun for something - barter, is that a sale?

 

[opinterph]

… I also don't know if there is some kind of check requirement for private citizens, logic would say no, but who knows, and if there is, I can't see how one would enforce or accommodate it.

So the question really is, if you just trade a gun for something - barter, is that a sale?

Yes, a barter transaction has the same effect as paying cash.


Selling or even gifting a gun to someone else is subject to various laws and restrictions.

Buying and Selling a Firearm: Giving Someone a Gun (Outdoor Hub; “2 years ago”)

Giving a Firearm as a Gift? Some Reminders from the National Shooting Sports Foundation (November 20, 2017)​

 

[gsdx]

Just remember. Don't bring them north. And don't get mad at us if we take them away if you do.

 

[Kulindahr]

Oops, looks like GAYO missed one:
http://www.unclehenrys.com/search/Guns?display=grid

A cursory look on craigslist though surprisingly came up dry.

Oh well, remain calm as there's always the gun show loophole.

The existence of listings for guns for sale has no bearing at all on how easy they are to get.

Or are you suggesting the GAO just went trolling somehow?

 

[Kulindahr]

I'll need to read the full report later, but what about buying gun parts?

Could someone purchase a gun by getting it in pieces?

I'm curious how 3D printing a gun will impact the future. It'll be hard to deal with if people can basically download a gun. No gatekeepers. And there's no way to prevent the spread of files if it did happen.

Actually, yes. On a number of gun sites it's been discussed that now with 3D printing of many parts and the availability of not-quite finished receivers (the core that holds all the parts and lets them function together) has made it possible for anyone with access to the technology to make a gun at home. Right now, it's possible to buy a receiver and finish it yourself, print most of the rest of the parts and buy others, and have an utterly untraceable gun -- and the only thing the law says about that is you can't sell it.

The sad part about this is that the process still doesn't make guns available to those who need them for defense, namely the poor in the inner city (the very people the 1968 gun control act was aimed at).

 

[Kulindahr]

I sold a couple of things recently on Craigslist and had several people ask if I was interested in trading for guns. Of course I'm in Kansas where you get a gun with your first drivers license, JK not really.

I'm curious about the 3D printing as well. Can the plastics used in the process stand up to the rigors of a gun firing? Scary to think one could print a gun, use it in a crime and melt it down to destroy the evidence.

The best a totally 3D-printed gun has managed so far is about twenty shots. But using metal for the barrel and hammer, people have made both handguns and rifles capable of well over a hundred shots with no problem.

Of course while that is fairly impressive, what it really means is that you've just built a gun that you aren't going to be able to practice with, which if you want it for self-defense makes it useless. And what that means is that gangs who want guns now have the ability to make crime guns just fine, because they don't need to practice since the idea is that a gun will scare people into compliance (the same reason police guns are used most often) and if they do have to shoot, they can always print another gun. I know that in California they're finding more and more use of homemade guns by criminals, but I haven't seen anything that tells if they're being printed (not that they need to be; it's possible to buy all the machinery you need to make guns from any supplier of metal-shop tools and gear).

This is why criminals just laugh at gun control: it doesn't slow them down noticeably (and in fact there are indications that tight gun control is starting to have the "Prohibition Effect" of causing a black market), and it means that their victims are significantly impeded (especially in gun-free zones, which just means disarmament zones for the law-abiding).

 

[Kulindahr]

Yeah, I've seen that also. Apparently one is supposed to have a form of some kind to sell or buy, but I don't know how often it's used, if it needs to be filed somewhere, or what it actually entails. I do know that the people I know who sold guns off craigslist wouldn't have if the buyer TOLD them they were a felon. I also don't know if there is some kind of check requirement for private citizens, logic would say no, but who knows, and if there is, I can't see how one would enforce or accommodate it.

To sell legally online, you need someone with a Federal Firearms License at one or both ends of the sale (depending on local law). It's not legal to ship out of state to anyone but an FFL holder and generally without shipping from one.

One problem is that a lot of private sellers would love to be able to do a background check on prospective buyers, but by law private citizens can'e use the instant-check system, and in many places FFL holders aren't allowed to do the check for anyone else -- and every time the NRA and others have tried to get the instant-check system opened to private sellers, it's been Democrats who blocked it.

So the question really is, if you just trade a gun for something - barter, is that a sale?

According to the IRS, yes. According to the BATFE it comes under "other disposition", as in "sale or other disposition of a firearm", and as that complete phrase suggests, "other disposition" (except under limited circumstances regarding gifts or inheritances) is treated the same as a sale (this is why sensible laws requiring background checks use the word "transaction" and not "transfer"; the word "transfer" makes it illegal to pick up someone else's gun who you're hunting with if they become injured and can't carry it, or even to hold it for them while they crawl through a fence or climb a tree).

 

[Kulindahr]

Selling or even gifting a gun to someone else is subject to various laws and restrictions.

Giving a Firearm as a Gift? Some Reminders from the National Shooting Sports Foundation (November 20, 2017)​

That's an excellent link. That information tends to get posted every December on many gun sites as a reminder to everyone.

 

[Kulindahr]

Just remember. Don't bring them north. And don't get mad at us if we take them away if you do.

Going north isn't much of a worry; the parts of Canada I've ever gone to have so little crime that I've never worried about it.

Going south, OTOH... I've been told more than once by Mexicans that it's foolish to be in their country without a gun for protection unless you're staying entirely in the ritzy tourist areas where the police make sure that the foreigners spending lots of money in their country are protected.

Interestingly, I know a couple of people who have travelled through Mexico with rifles, and those guns were found by the Mexican border guards on the way back to the States -- and the guards' only response was to comment on the kind of rifle and even note that having one is smart in rural areas (despite the fact that the official process for foreigners to bring guns with them in(to) Mexico is very bureaucratic and pretty expensive).

 

[gsdx]

Going north isn't much of a worry; the parts of Canada I've ever gone to have so little crime that I've never worried about it.

That's not what I was talking about. Your Second Amendment stops and the border, and if you cross it into Canada with guns of any kind, they will be taken away. Refuse to give them up and you will be turned back. You can get them back through the legal channels if customs officers take them away, but if you smuggle them in and you're caught, the guns are confiscated and I don't think you can get them back.

Thousands of American visitors lose their guns every year crossing the border and you would be amazed at how many complain that it's their Constitutional right to carry them. But they can't carry them here.

Yet it's our fault when we take them away.

 

[MakeItTonite]

Of course while that is fairly impressive, what it really means is that you've just built a gun that you aren't going to be able to practice with, which if you want it for self-defense makes it useless. And what that means is that gangs who want guns now have the ability to make crime guns just fine, because they don't need to practice since the idea is that a gun will scare people into compliance (the same reason police guns are used most often) and if they do have to shoot, they can always print another gun. I know that in California they're finding more and more use of homemade guns by criminals, but I haven't seen anything that tells if they're being printed (not that they need to be; it's possible to buy all the machinery you need to make guns from any supplier of metal-shop tools and gear).

This is why criminals just laugh at gun control: it doesn't slow them down noticeably

Thank you. Folks seem to be unaware of the fact that more and more can and *are* manufacturing almost anything they desire right in their very own garages. 3D printing aside, improved technology and the internet itself are facilitating this new DIY revolution. (Please don't try to ban technology and the internet.)

(and in fact there are indications that tight gun control is starting to have the "Prohibition Effect" of causing a black market), and it means that their victims are significantly impeded (especially in gun-free zones, which just means disarmament zones for the law-abiding).

That's interesting. Do you have any more information on that?

 

[Kulindahr]

Thank you. Folks seem to be unaware of the fact that more and more can and *are* manufacturing almost anything they desire right in their very own garages. 3D printing aside, improved technology and the internet itself are facilitating this new DIY revolution. (Please don't try to ban technology and the internet.)




That's interesting. Do you have any more information on that?

Mostly from some law enforcement types who have observed that the places where police are finding homemade guns being used by criminals correspond to the places with the tightest gun control laws.

 

[mightbe]

The suggestion that all internet transactions for firearms follow legal requirements is laughable.

In some areas the actual transaction, even if posted and responded to on the internet, transpires in-person with cash and no questions asked. This is especially prevalent in rural areas where people either don't know better or don't care; no one checks so why the bother. It is one of the most frightening things about coming home to the sticks for the holidays.