Gay Marriage & Illegal Immigration

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

On the issue of the flag then you support the Nazi and Confederate flag right? They have that right too. See I though we are 1 country 1 flag. Then I refuse to hear 1 more African American leader talk about poverty in inner cities.

Blacks get what they deserve if they support higher immigration levels and illegal immigration. You really do not understand the idea of the USA and if you hear Obama speak he talks about 1 people not seperate ones.

This is not a problem with me or other US citizens. This is a problem that you and others refuse to be a part of this country instead you want to be a seperate part of it. This is 1 country 1 flag.

Nothing here a) has anything to do with the post to which it is supposedly responding or b) makes any sense at all.

Your posting of the Confederate flag as your avatar demonstrates exactly the opposite of what you have been jumping up and down about.

The fact of the matter is that you do have a right to fly that flag if you so choose. It says a great deal about you to others, and some of it may not be what you want it to say, but that is also the price of freedom, we must deal with the consequences of exercising it.

This country is not going to fall apart because people choose to fly a certain flag or another. The Puerto Ricans of el Barrio in New York City have been flying their flag here for almost sixty years, and yet somehow the country has not fallen apart yet.

The Irish fly their flags in front of every pub, and yet you do not complain. (You STILL have not addressed that one yet, I noticed...)

You get very testy with Marley and make some very borderline comments that say a great deal about your true intentions and motivations here. Others may be fooled by your "patriotism", but I am not. I know what you are, and what your ideas represent. I have seen them all before.

Whether you like it or not, this country's population will continue to grow and will continue to expand and change and develop and the demographics are going to continue making their adjustments with time as well. That is the nature of the beast.

I understand that it upsets you. The great white hope of the Western Hemisphere is getting a bit too brown for you and that makes you uncomfortable. It's gotta suck, eh?

 

[Chalchalero]

I am noticing that this thread is not about gay marriage after all.

I said yesterday that was a red herring. Looks like I was right.

We all know what the real purpose of this thread was, and it is actually just a little sickening. Not surprising - just sickening...

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Thanks. You know after careful thought I think you are right. As I said we are a divided country with many kinds of people. For me I am mostly white. So I am going to go with the flag that is most with white pride--the Confederate flag. This flag is a symbol of my pride in my heritage and my culture. Yes there are many things that whites have done wrong. But also many that they have done right including inventing every engine known to man, the computer you are on right now, the power going into it and most important things. The Confederate flag is symbol for me and many others I have read about of the cultural pride of whites. So please do not take offense. What is the problem with another flag in the USA?

I also have ordered one off ebay for the back of my car a little 2.00 sticker one. I am going with your way of thinking and I am not going to fly the US flag but that of my people--caucasians. Thanks for your opinion.

Personally, I say more power to you.

Just remember, that flag says more about you than you probably intended it to...

Just a thought...

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Its not a racist emblem. It may be to you but to me and other whites its just a symbol of our pride of our people.

It is the symbol of a lost time and place. Most Southern whites equate the flag with the period when they and the South as a whole were the dominant force in this country.

There is a romance on the part of some Southerners to attach the "Old South" and its "genteel" manners and customs to the old Confederacy, and I would imagine that would not be altogether unwarranted.

General Lee left a high ranking commission with the Union Army to join the Confederacy, despite his misgivings about it and the fact that he felt that secession was contrary to the designs of the Founding Fathers. But his loyalty to Virginia was stronger than his loyalty to the Union, and he felt honour bound to defend her.

This was a very Southern ideal, and in fact Lee is considered by many to be the ideal Southern gentleman.

What people forget, however, is that underneath all of this gentility, the Southern way of life was unsustainable as it relied upon a crop that basically exhausted the land (cotton) and a workforce which it had brutally enslaved.

It is this aspect which makes the Confederate flag so untenable to so many people. It is also the reason white supremacists have adopted it as their emblem without necessarily acknowledging the actual history behind the flag as a southern and not white supremacist emblem.

So I am not bothered by the flag. The South lost the war. Against all of their objections and their brutal acts of oppression, civil rights became a reality. Against all of the protests and attempts at intimidation of the present Don Quijotes of the country, things will continue progressing, change remaining the only constant.

This is just the way things are. And there will always be those people battling the windmills to try and prevent it. Good luck to them...

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

I'm not sure they ever were a dominant force. In the South, perhaps, but it was largely a loss of power that started the Civil War. It had less to do with slavery and more to do with the power the industrialized North was gaining. As freedom for slaves was seen as a moral imperative the South was concerned about losing their labor force as much as anything. Resentment after the war fostered racism even further. And while the stranglehold of power by white Southern Democrats was undeniable it was hardly dominant across the country as illustrated by how the will of the nation at large was able to give us the Civil Rights Act.

As for illegal immigration, any attempt to equate what is happening across our border with Mexico to legal Irish, Italian, and German immigrants of the past is at best naive and at worst stupid. Unfortunately, this issue was successfully swept aside by both parties, hungry for a latino voter base. Which just shows, given the option of personal power and the nation's best interest both candidates and both parties will opt for the former. "Change" we can use sold for the status quo.

It is the period before Northern industrialisation overtook the South (the Civil War was the case in point which turned the tide in fact.)

The Civil Rights Act did not come about because of any will of the people. It came about because Kennedy and Johnson wanted it to. It was one of the reasons Kennedy was so hated in the South and why Johnson became his running mate to begin with.

The majority of Americans were perfectly happy to leave things as they were. Rather than become motivated by the Civil Rights movement, most white Americans hid under their beds hoping the evil negroes weren't going to come get them. They certainly were not on the side of the civil rights marchers.

As for illegal immigration, any attempt to equate what is happening across our border with Mexico to legal Irish, Italian, and German immigrants of the past is at best naive and at worst stupid.

There was no such thing as illegal immigration during the period to which you refer, so you are being a tiny bit misleading there.

And if you think the native population at the time was thrilled to see the newcomers and were not jumping on their jingoistic bandwagons telling them to go home (much like we have today) then you are woefully unaware of the history of this oh so xenophobic nation. Or to put it in your eloquent language, to think that way would be "at best naive and at worst stupid."

The illegal immigration question was "swept aside" as you say by the wrong headed bigoted racists who were not going to be happy with any compromise and instead insisted upon garroting any potential agreement that gave anything away to anyone except themselves.

This is what prevents any real "change" as you put it. No one expects illegal immigration to get them very many votes, as it is a lie that Latinos support illegal immigration. I have already shown this and will gladly do so again if you wish.

I am so tired of you people lumping all of us in together with every other law breaker, as though simply because we are Hispanic, we must think it is ok to break the law. That is plain BS, and I resent it.

If you checked the Latino voters in Miami, you would find that most of the Cubans are happy to stem the tide of the current crop of Cubans coming in, because they do not see them as their "sort". Many of course are black, and we do not want too many of them around, now do we?

Groups like the CANF try to stem the tide of other Hispanic groups from coming into the country as well.

There are several Puerto Rican anti immigration groups here in New York who feel that resources are already stretched too thin and do not want to share them with newcomers.

There are several of these examples all over the country. So where is this "Latino voting bloc" that everyone is supposed to be kissing up to? I have said this before and I will say it once again. Latinos do not vote in a monolithic bloc. We never have and we never will. There are too many issues for us to see eye to eye on each and every one of them. It's that simple.

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Marley, I think my post might have been misperceived. Let me rephrase it:

"I hope you're right, Marley. The African-American struggle was too bitterly fought to be lost by the trend of illegal immigration."

I'm on your side on this one, Marley. I saw the people who--against all seemingly impossible odds--succeeded, and became doctors, lawyers, and now a possible President.

My concern is that massive immigration from countries South of us will erase many of those gains, Marley, especially in the political arena: Hispanics now outnumber African-Americans in the US.

And what the hell do you think we are going to do, rise up and oppress the blacks? Get real. We are not whites.

The more minorities of all colours and backgrounds are able to succeed in this country, the better for the nation as a whole.

 

[LatinoSTAR]

I dont have an american flag, but i have about 50,000 Puerto Rican flags, im more proud of where my ancestors came from then where i am at right now.....5 of my best friends are illegal..i support the illegal immigrants, its just how the US chooses to deal with it

I think all people should take pride in where they originally came from, not give it up in favor for the country they were born in..

and i like how oak999 is talking about 1 country 1 flag, yet his avatar is a Confederate flag, and lets not forget it loosely represents racism.


[Edited by Moderator: Removed inappropriate reference to another member]

 

[construct]

I think all people should take pride in where they originally came from.

My people conquored this land, and we gained independence from the country we originally came from. What do you think my attitude should be toward the British?

 

[construct]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Perhaps I misunderstood. I would respond in that I find it highly offensive when illegal immigrants march in cities hoisting the flag of their origin. If they have such pride in their country they should be taking a stand to improve it. I have no issue with people being proud of their heritage or waving their flag in any other setting. But to demand rights in a foreign nation under your original nations flag when you're here illegally....well that I even have to label it "ridiculous" is appalling. It should be self-evident.

I do feel there is a movement on the side for amnesty for aliens to paint the other side as bigoted. They do this because they know racism gets attention. The vast majority of those against illegal immigration are so because it's illegal. The simple fact is the number of illegals would be considerably less had they gone through legal channels. And while it's true, we need to reform the process any process will deter those who would come here maliciously. Anything worth having is worth taking the trouble to get. And life here in America should require effort. Just as I appreciate my life because I work for it, immigrants that have come here legally appreciate their citizenship having come through the process (again, reform is needed here but an "open door" isn't the answer). That is why many of these Latinos resent their fellow latinos who come here illegally.

What is this "process" that needs reform and why?

We don't have enough courts to handle the deportation cases. Would you suggest that more courts would be appropriate? How much money would it take to establish those courts? Where would this money come from?

Mere "illegality" does not signal a need to dispense with discretion in law enforcement.

 

[construct]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Perhaps building more moderate courthouses than ones that look like palaces. In one driver's education class, the sum of the student's court costs was well into the tens of thousands, for one class, for one type of offense. Even people who are innocent are subject to mandatory fees just for being rung through the court system. If there's one thing the courts have plenty of, it's money. Seriously, you should see my new courthouse it looks like something you'd see on MTV Cribs. I doubt they'd be building these palaces if they were hard up for cash.

I'm not talking about building courthouses. I'm talking about the establishment of courts and the appointment and paying of judges.



This whole thread has become silly. The immigration system is broken. There are no quick fixes. And above all I abhor white folk's cloaking their racist attitudes in their mock horror at illegality.

 

[construct]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

What I was saying is, it's not an issue of us not having the resources to handle the court cases. The failure of the US judicial system isn't because of its volume, its because of the corruption and inefficiency. In a sense, you were right because as shitty as the immigration system is, it's currently being into a judicial system that's just as shitty so all it is is a bunch of shit all over the place. And it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that I'm finding racism here, straights aren't the only ones capable of prejudice, you just don't expect it from a group that is fighting for its own niche.

Please show any evidence you may have of corruption in the immigration courts.

 

[construct]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

You've gotta be fucking kidding me. Corruption in the US courts has been as constant as fast food on every corner, and no one who has an micro-atom of a clue of what goes on in this country would ever need proof that a US court could have corruption.

Then it should be no trouble for you to show it. Please show.

 

[construct]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Why do I have to? Because you don't wanna believe it? Show me that bears exist, I haven't seen one in awhile. Do you honestly not believe me or are you just being argumentative?

I honestly don't take your word for it that the immigration courts are corrupt.

Hearing no objection, my question to jav still stands whether he would establish an adequate number of immigration courts and how they should be paid for.

 

[construct]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

I didn't say every last one, that's the kind of exaggerations that are used to make valid points sound invalid. I'll ask you to interview two people, then come back and tell me these courts don't need some re-working:

1st: A wife who's husband was killed by an illegal immigrant who's already racked up 5 DUI's, but hasn't been deported (I left out the baby who also died and transposed the sex of the victim/survivor but this is a true story from a few months ago in Charlotte)

2nd: An illegal immigrant who was kicked out of the country after spending 20 years abiding by our laws and attending college.

If you'll accept my answer, these additional courts could be funded by the same money that's used to build lavish courthouses. It's called budgeting and please don't ask me to prove that it exists. Like I said, one driver education course alone, with some 30 students accounted for 10's of thousands of dollars in court fees. 10's of thousands. That's only minor driving offenses, and only one class. Again, (although you ignored it when I said it the first time) the US courts are nowhere near short on money, if they are they're not helping by building lavish courthouses.

I fully recognize the intolerable situation that many find themselves in before an immigration judge. I don't think that zero-tolerance is a good policy in immigration cases, but a lot of that is statutory or regulatory. The judges have no discretion in such cases. That needs to be changed, but it is not "corruption."

As for costs, I think fines and costs go to the general budget. I don't think the immigration courts are self-sustaining. Besides, immigration courts are federal courts. Traffic courts are state courts. You can't just use the money from one to fund the other. It doesn't work that way.

 

[opinterph]

… Between human error and malicious people, corrupt is a fair word for the courts, …

Using only the first of these parameters, it is unlikely that any human system exists that is not “corrupt.”

Perhaps corrupt is not the best word to describe the reported observation. 8)​

 

[Chalchalero]

Re: Gay marriage--my take on it

Whoa, horsey! Whoever suggested that Latinos would be guilty of oppressing the blacks??

The truth is that in the political arena the largest numbers get heard the most. If (or when) Latinos attain more political power than the blacks, the Latino needs will be the ones that are addressed; black political power will be diluted.

Chalchelero, this already nearly happened in the Presidential Primary--Hispanics voted overwhelmingly Clinton, blacks overwhelmingly Obama; Obama won by the skin of his teeth. (It is widely recognized that Clinton's win in California and Texas was due to the Latino vote.)

It's all a question of numbers.

This is not a question of "diluting" power. The fact of the matter is that there are many issues upon which both blacks and Hispanics agree upon. There are many issues we have in common. However, certainly there are issues which are particular for our specific groups. This is true within the Hispanic community.

I do wish people would stop looking at Hispanics as one big monolithic group that thinks with one mind, because we are not.

California and Texas have racial issues that do not exist in New York, for example. There have always been tensions between blacks and Hispanics in those two states. They are less likely to agree on many things, therefore. Whereas in New York, you will find that the two groups often vote in sync with one another.

There are exceptions such as when a black man is running for President, it has been shown that blacks will tend to support him. I think it is silly, but there it is.

In New York, blacks had more issues with Rudy Giuliani and so voted against him consistently, while Hispanics tended to support him.

But despite the exceptions, the rule remains the same. Blacks and Hispanics tend to agree more often than disagree, I believe. If I am wrong in this, please show me the data, because I would hate to be misinformed.

One more point to consider is that a large number of blacks are never as motivated to vote as Hispanics are. Remember that many Hispanics are recent citizens and take their responsibilities and rights as citizens seriously, while certain native groups take these responsibilities and rights for granted, having had them their entire lives. If there is a dilution of power, it will be the fault of those who allowed it to slip from their grasp through their own inaction and not because we took anything from them.

 

[Kulindahr]

Will mass immigration from the Latino countries eventually effect a dilution of black power in the electorate? I think so; it's a simple matter of numbers.

It seems rather disappointing that black people--who've fought for decades for their rights--are going to be taking a political back seat to Latinos due to circumstances beyond their control.

Back when, it was rather disappointing for German people, who fought for decades to be considered real Americans, to take a political back seat to Irishmen....
This happens over and over. Every new wave of immigrants is seen by some of the last, or some other earlier one, as a threat. One great difference this time, though, is that we have such strict immigration laws, so many of the newcomers are here illegally.

There are several of these examples all over the country. So where is this "Latino voting bloc" that everyone is supposed to be kissing up to? I have said this before and I will say it once again. Latinos do not vote in a monolithic bloc. We never have and we never will. There are too many issues for us to see eye to eye on each and every one of them. It's that simple.

The "Lation vote" exists in the minds of politicians who are accustomed to treating any distinct group as some monolithic item to be bribed or placated in return for votes. That the Latinos don't fit the stereotype is to their advantage -- if blacks had voted for whichever party would fit their values on varying topics, they might have progressed faster.

Please show any evidence you may have of corruption in the immigration courts.

The worst is in the deportation category. It's bad enough that U.S. News and TIME both did pieces on it recently (I think Newsweek did as well, but I'm not certain). The courts are overworked, undermanned, and as a result lack decent supervision, so it's easy for people to indulge their prejudices and get away with it.
That's just one more reason I think we should eliminate the BATFE (which is really pointless) and transfer the personnel to other places, like Immigration and Naturalization.

There's corruption everywhere and courts are no different. People are fucked up, sitting a bench doesn't make you immune to that. 30 years ago a white man could get away with hacking off a black man's dick and hanging him from a tree. In public. With witnesses. One of the witnesses is a town sheriff.

Forget thirty years ago -- there are places where it still can happen; my best buddy lives in one. A gay guy there a while back "accidentally" "crashed" his car into his own house, resulting in total loss of both house and car, because the gas tank "accidentally" ruptured and something started it on fire. Thanks to a neighbor, the guy was rescued.
A sheriff's deputy sat within view and did nothing until the house was so ablaze it couldn't possibly be saved. My buddy says everyone in the country knows it wasn't any sort of accident, but no one really cares, because they don't want "that sort" around.
Blacks wouldn't ever manage to have a house or car there; it's easier to tell they're "the wrong type".

Hell, even here in supposed blue-state Oregon gays and blacks get beat up, etc., and in a number of counties it always shows up on the sheriff's investigation as an "accident".

1st: A wife who's husband was killed by an illegal immigrant who's already racked up 5 DUI's, but hasn't been deported (I left out the baby who also died and transposed the sex of the victim/survivor but this is a true story from a few months ago in Charlotte)

2nd: An illegal immigrant who was kicked out of the country after spending 20 years abiding by our laws and attending college.

Those were reported in U.S. News, along with others. There are also cases where an immigrant whose visa has run out has been deported -- even though married to an American citizen since arriving! Others have set in detention for weeks while officials argued about their status.

If you'll accept my answer, these additional courts could be funded by the same money that's used to build lavish courthouses. It's called budgeting and please don't ask me to prove that it exists. Like I said, one driver education course alone, with some 30 students accounted for 10's of thousands of dollars in court fees. 10's of thousands. That's only minor driving offenses, and only one class. Again, (although you ignored it when I said it the first time) the US courts are nowhere near short on money, if they are they're not helping by building lavish courthouses.

Many courts have plenty of money because the taxpayers supported legislators' moves to pay for the courts on the backs of the poor, who get arrested disproportionately -- and charged for everything imaginable, from their court-appointed attorney's fees to filing charges to detention costs to document fees to records fees....

 

[Kulindahr]

Now, to get back to what this thread is supposed to be about, I think that any gay illegal immigrant should be allowed to stay and become a citizen as long as they marry an American, have two children and a dog, and like apple pie.

 

[Kulindahr]

^
Ouch!

Painfully pointed satire, stud.





(I had to say "stud" to make my alliteration balanced.)

 

[Chalchalero]

The "Lation vote" exists in the minds of politicians who are accustomed to treating any distinct group as some monolithic item to be bribed or placated in return for votes. That the Latinos don't fit the stereotype is to their advantage -- if blacks had voted for whichever party would fit their values on varying topics, they might have progressed faster.

You are presuming that they do not.

I do not know what you mean by that comment, since, as is the case of Latino voters, there is no "black vote" either. Why do people always presume that there must be a committee that determines which way an entire ethnic group will vote? I believe that every black person who votes believes that he is voting for the party that fits his values, whatever they may be.

This may entail voting for Obama, Clinton, or joining Armstrong Jones in voting for Republicans. Who is to determine for one entire ethnic group what is right for each individual member?

What do you mean by "they might have progressed faster"? I believe blacks as a whole have progressed pretty well for themselves, quite despite a great many obstacles (not the least of those they place in their own way...) In what sense do you mean "progress faster"?

Also, whom were blacks voting for if not those they believed represented their interests? People they believed would NOT? That does not make sense to me.

I don't know, but your post has confused the hell out of me...