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Gay Marriage Question

the simple matter is this. no one should be able to deny us the luxury of getting married. if we are a man and a man or a women and another women, we deserve the same rights as hetero couple. and the goverment shouldnt be able to say yes or no just cause they are a bunch of homophobic bigots.
 
And without religion, marriage STILL wouldn't exist, regardless of what it has "evolved" to. So, you said it yourself. It's a UNION. So why the hell aren't people happy with a Civil Union? Marriage isn't exactly a right...

I dont believe in the original laws and practices of the ancient israelites- why do you?

What our ancestors did is completely irrelevant. We as a race are constantly growing and adapting, we are learning to respect the rights and freedoms of our fellow human beings... we shouldnt be conservatives and fight progress... if our race did that throughout history we would be living in caves fighting for scraps of food.

This issue is about the tradionalists fighting against the advancement of our rights and freedoms.
 
I'm not religious. I don't believe in any of that B.S., and yet again MARRIAGE IS NOT A RIGHT

So you believe its a priviledge that gay people are not allowed to share with the rest of humanity?
 
I didn't say it was a privelege either, did I?
Ugh. Why do people not get what I'm saying. I'm trying to word it as clearly as possible but I can't seem to find one that people are getting to express my point. I know what I'm trying to say but nobody is really getting it. My main point: Why can't people just accept that not everyone has to cater to them? And why can't you see that they're TRYING to cater to you without altering something that's been the same for AGES by offering Civil Unions? But see, it's not good enough. Eventually you're going to get NOT A FUCKING THING because there's just no pleasing people. Just like the damn Cracker Barrel gay rights B.S. that's going on. You don't cater to them, so why should anyone cater to you? Because someone doesn't like something, they're suddenly closeminded bigots who want people miserable? And then if they don't change things to cater to you, after offering you more than enough, you complain yet again. Its a no win situation
 
I didn't say it was a privelege either, did I?
Ugh. Why do people not get what I'm saying. I'm trying to word it as clearly as possible but I can't seem to find one that people are getting to express my point. I know what I'm trying to say but nobody is really getting it. My main point: Why can't people just accept that not everyone has to cater to them? And why can't you see that they're TRYING to cater to you without altering something that's been the same for AGES by offering Civil Unions? But see, it's not good enough. Eventually you're going to get NOT A FUCKING THING because there's just no pleasing people. Just like the damn Cracker Barrel gay rights B.S. that's going on. You don't cater to them, so why should anyone cater to you? Because someone doesn't like something, they're suddenly closeminded bigots who want people miserable? And then if they don't change things to cater to you, after offering you more than enough, you complain yet again. Its a no win situation

This isnt about them 'catering' to us... this is about them adding things to their laws that discriminate against us. This isnt about them giving us what we want - This is about them taking something away from us, saying we have to conform to their values in order to receive equal rights.

If we dont involve ourselves in gay rights issues, if we dont try hard to fight for equality, then we will lose our rights, and our people will have to fall back into hiding.... if gay rights were not fought for in recent generations, we would be where we were 50 or 100 years ago where our people were rounded up and jailed, chased and beaten to death, and where we were forced to hide who we are for a morbid fear for our lives.
 
Or, if that was to Rosa Parks, "If you don't shut up and stand at the back of the bus then you'll just have to walk!"

But seriously though, wtf was she thinking? It was not her place to question the tradition of black people sitting at the back. As if Montgomery was going to cater to her demands to be treated as an equal.
 
LMFAO if you're going to compare Gay Marriage to Rosa Parks' movement, then it's pointless trying to even get my point across. They are COMPLETELY not the same, and if you think they are, go back to school. Good lord.
 
LMFAO if you're going to compare Gay Marriage to Rosa Parks' movement, then it's pointless trying to even get my point across. They are COMPLETELY not the same, and if you think they are, go back to school. Good lord.

Apparently you are not alone in this thinking, the Canadian conservative PM agrees:

"Regarding sexual orientation or, more accurately, what we are really talking about, sexual behaviour, the argument has been made ... that this is analogous to race and ethnicity.... (For) anyone in the Liberal party to equate the traditional definition of marriage with segregation and apartheid is vile and disgusting."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, 2003.


The stand you are taking is on the side that says our sexual orientation is somehow wrong and that we deserve to not have equal rights. Rosa Parks was fighting against being treated unfairly, Americans and other people whose countries oppose equal marriage are being treated unfairly.
 
Apparently you are not alone in this thinking, the Canadian conservative PM agrees:

"Regarding sexual orientation or, more accurately, what we are really talking about, sexual behaviour, the argument has been made ... that this is analogous to race and ethnicity.... (For) anyone in the Liberal party to equate the traditional definition of marriage with segregation and apartheid is vile and disgusting."

- Conservative leader Stephen Harper, 2003.


The stand you are taking is on the side that says our sexual orientation is somehow wrong and that we deserve to not have equal rights. Rosa Parks was fighting against being treated unfairly, Americans and other people whose countries oppose equal marriage are being treated unfairly.


Yes, you're totally right. I'm totally against myself. And I don't deserve to have equal rights. Obviously there's nothing I can say to clear my way of thinking so, whatever. Weddings are held in a church. Weddings include God and all that holy crap. It's like a restaurant. I'm not gonna change my menu just because you don't see anything you like. Civil Unions aren't recognized? Okay. Then instead of bitching about how you can't get "married," bitch about making them recognized, which I don't recall when they WEREN'T, or else they wouldn't exist...Not to mention, so what happens if they DO legalize gay marriage? Business aren't having to accept it. They're not going to be forced. So then you're gonna bitch about that too. You can't have the cake and eat it too. Not everyone is going to or has to be okay with it just because you think so, why can't you all see that? Legalizing gay marriage isn't gonna do anything for you, because many companies and corporations that have marriage benefits will either alter their description, or already define their benefits between a man and a woman. They're not going to change it just because gay marriage is legal, and they still DON'T have to recognize it. There, I think THAT is what I've been trying to say. Just because you fight the battle and make some progress, doesn't mean you'll win.
 
Yes, you're totally right. I'm totally against myself. And I don't deserve to have equal rights. Obviously there's nothing I can say to clear my way of thinking so, whatever. Weddings are held in a church. Weddings include God and all that holy crap. It's like a restaurant. I'm not gonna change my menu just because you don't see anything you like. Civil Unions aren't recognized? Okay. Then instead of bitching about how you can't get "married," bitch about making them recognized, which I don't recall when they WEREN'T, or else they wouldn't exist...Not to mention, so what happens if they DO legalize gay marriage? Business aren't having to accept it. They're not going to be forced. So then you're gonna bitch about that too. You can't have the cake and eat it too. Not everyone is going to or has to be okay with it just because you think so, why can't you all see that? Legalizing gay marriage isn't gonna do anything for you, because many companies and corporations that have marriage benefits will either alter their description, or already define their benefits between a man and a woman. They're not going to change it just because gay marriage is legal, and they still DON'T have to recognize it. There, I think THAT is what I've been trying to say. Just because you fight the battle and make some progress, doesn't mean you'll win.

The location of the exchange of marriage vows is irrelevant. A guy and girl can go to a justice of the peace and get thier marriage contract legally recognized without any hint of religion being involved.

If the company you work for is discriminating against you because of your sexual orientation - then you can just sue them and get equal benefits to your straight married coworkers.

This isnt about what other people think about us, this doesnt concern other people. This is about us getting equal rights under the law.

It doesnt matter how you view yourself, your self-esteem issues are irrelevant to this issue, the point is that you are a human being just like them and you do deserve equal rights to what they have.
 
Don't get me wrong, I get what you're saying, I just wish I could find the words to properly state what I mean. I don't know why it's so difficult. I don't want to come off anti-anything or whatever, and it's how I'm coming off, and I don't want that. Grr lol
 
What's the matter with you guys? Your not satisfied with separate but equal?
 
Reading through this whole thing, I've concluded that perhaps the biggest problem is that at least three different definitions of marriage are being used. Two are primary, and the third can be viewed as a consequence of one of those. These are:

1. Marriage is a religious institution, which is why it says "holy matrimony", and thus is the province of the churches.
2. Marriage is a legal document approved by the state, and is therefore the realm of the state; it is thus also an economic institution, since the contract has numerous eceonomic aspects automatically recognized.

Both definitions have considerable merit. It helps to look at the situation historically, because both definitions are also true -- and it is the overlapping and confusing of the two that causes all the trouble.

Marriage predates the state. Before there were even kings, or cities, there was marriage. Almost universally, it was bound up with the gods, or spirits, or God. This tradition -- and definition -- has come down to us today, and is the one the religio-publicans cling to.
Yet the state took up the defining of marriage for reasons of inheritance. Even so, the earliest states which did so were generally theocracies, or close to it, and marriage was whatever the priests/priestesses/shamans/etc. said it was. THus whoever the religious authorities declared married were married, because even though the state had a vested interest, marriage was still in the realm of the religious and under that authority.
Things continued in that fashion through the Roman Empire and into the Medieval period. They remained that way after the Reformation, right on into the colonial period. In the colonies of the Catholic powers, the institution was unchanged from the time of the fall of Rome, except that it had become more important politically and economically and so tied in with the state -- but the religious authorities still ruled it. For the "Protestant" powers the situation was the same -- but there the breakdown of the marriage of the religious and political began. People in the Protestant countries moved about, and took their marriages with them. For the sake of order, the different states tacitly recognized marriages bound in others; still, each state had its own church, and in that state it was that church which solemnized marriages. The single exception was the Jewish community, which had always been separate; their marriages were mostly recognized -- but not always.
England, and then America, was where matters began to change. England had the Anglican Church, but more and more there were Dissenters, who performed their own marriages -- which were recognized by the Crown, thus establishing the principle that marriage could be performed by more than one religious authority. In practice, this transferred the "ownership" of marriage from church to state. The move from definition 1 to definition 2 had been made in all essentials but one: it reamined for marriage apart from any religious authority at all to enter the picture.
As far as I'm aware, that happened in America, for a variety of reasons: One was that there were times and places where competing churches abounded, and yet a couple wishing to be married chose none of them, and so provision was made for a civil marriage. Another was that there were times and places where there wasn't a church available, so the civil authority stepped in. Lastly, there were those who didn't feel the need for any religious aspect at all in their marriage; for them the state sufficed not as a substitute, but as an entity apart.
This all came about because the United States determined to protect the freedom of religion, and thought the thirteen original colonies had among them official state churches, the movement of people from one to another brought about the same practical considerations as in Protestant Europe earlier -- and went beyond it. Official churches were abandoned entirely, the various sects and denominations spread from their home colonies to others, and new ones sprang up. With all this multiplicity, marriage by default became the province of the state, as the only repository handling the records of all marriages. And gradually this system spread back to Europe as religious freedom caught on, notably in Germany, where the official church varied from each tiny principality to the next, and even changed with a change of ruler!

So we come down to today; most of the world follows this pattern. Unfortunately, affairs are muddled; although marriage has for the most part become an affair of the state, the churches still consider it a religious matter, as do many people -- not all of them religious themselves.

So if there is confusion in the definitions in this thread, they arise out of a very real confusion in history and thought.

THe current crisis arises out of it as well: the religio-publicans cling to that ancient situation, and wish to return to it today. They may not say so, but that is what their actions proclaim. Oh, they are gracious enough to share the institution with anyone who agrees with their model -- marriage before God, joining one man and one woman -- but only because it serves their agenda, which at root is an infusion of theocracy into the United States of America.

Ironically, these are the same people who assert that God Himself gave America the form of government it has in the Constitution; for that very Constitution, if they but read what it says, confounds their aim. For if marriage is in fact "holy matrimony", what then are they to do with, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"? Certainly their definition of marriage fits in more than one religion, but it does not fit in all. Certainly also that definition has been enshrined in law, piecemeal, over the years (especially since the invention of the Infernal Revenue Service), but that does not make it right. Precedent may give weight, but only when it follows the Constitution; that was decided beginning after the Civil War and reaching its height in the civil rights movement.

So...
I say that MCsNo1Fn has the matter right: forget trying to get in on the marriage racket; go for civil unions -- but don't settle for that! Instead aim for replacing every last mention of marriage in Federal and State law with the words "civil union" -- and let the churches have their "holy matrimony". Certainly any marriage performed by a religious authority would continue to qualify as a civil union, but so would any other ceremony by whoever people agreed qualified -- the Elks Club, the Masonic Lodge... or Sam's Gay Flame Bar and Grill.

And that brings me to the original question. If we truly want freedom, then our battle here is not to steal marriage from the churches -- that's what they see! The battle is instead to allow people of every religion found in America to have marriage, or partnering, or bonding, or whatever they wish to call it, in whatever fashion they consider fit and proper. And if that includes polygamy, or polyandry, or group, or lines, so be it.
After all, it is supposed to be a free country!
 
Instead aim for replacing every last mention of marriage in Federal and State law with the words "civil union" -- and let the churches have their "holy matrimony".

And yet I couldn't think of this sentence myself. Am I GLAD you came along.
This is what I've meant, people LOL
 
First I am going to start with my opinion (as a practicing Gay Christian). Marriage should be seperate from the government. I think that by making, and allowing for civil unions (no marraiges) issued by the state to both straightand gay couples. Although the term marriage will probibly be crammed down everyones throats through organizations like the ACLU.
Now I am going to show the legal reality of gay marraige in America. Nowhere in the constitution is marriage mentioned. Therefore, it was meant to be left up to congress or the individual states, not the courts. The fact is, because marriage isnt mentioned in the constitution, then not allowing gays to marry can't be declared as unconstitutional. This whole idea about using organizations like the ACLU to use the courts to advance the gay marriage agenda is bogus. If there is ever going to be gay marriage in america, then it must be passed in legislation through the elected officials. (Although the aclu and the courts will prob. succeed in breaking the law)
 
So, gays are not entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
 
If getting married is your goal in life, your epitome of freedom, and the only thing that will make you happy, then thats pretty bad.
 
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